Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 12, 2012 12:06:41 GMT -5
It seems like you are trying to be vicious. I don't think I can read this thread anymore. It's too ugly.
I need to step away from it too. For at least a few hours. I just can't do this right now. So if anyone directs posts at me after this and I don't answer for awhile, that's why.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 12:07:04 GMT -5
Yes I would let him wear it. I would totally disagree with it and let him know my feelings on the subject. I would require him to purchase such a thing with his own money but yes I would allow him to wear it. With regards to the clean clothes- I do the laundry in our house and collect everything from his room and wash it. If he had something that he refused to let me wash ok. I would still let him wear it. If it stank something nasty I would request that he eat his dinner on the patio or roll down his window in the car. See, I don't get this. IMO you are the parent & make the rules. I'm not letting my kid go out in something I find inappropriate regardless of his personal style or how cool it is. I don't think I send a bad message or am going to scar my kid for life if I don't let him go out in public smelling like a landfill. My job as a parent, as I see it, is to keep him from doing idiotic things like going in public stanky.
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jul 12, 2012 12:09:12 GMT -5
This is a hard question for me since I've got a young boy. I guess I'm lucky because except for the fact that he loves to snuggle his stuffed animals he acts very boyish in everything he does. If I felt that he needed to express himself by wearing pink, I'd probably let him do so on the weekends but try to discourage it at kindergarten. I was bullied from about second grade till freshman year and at one point seriously considered suicide. So I wouldn't want him to be set up for years of abuse because of some stupid phase he went through when he was little. If he was older and felt that wearing pink was important and he was willing to shrug off the nasty comments, then I would be a lot more supportive.
I'd like to say one final thing about "normalcy." Quite frankly, I don't want to be a "normal" modern American. There was a time in this country (the 50s and early 60s) where being normal meant having a certain amount of style in dress, enjoying good music and good food, and at least trying to be well-read. Nowadays, what's considered culturally normal is dressing either like a slob or a stripper; considering chain restaurants like Olive Garden to be high end dining; thinking that Justin Beiber or Lady Gaga are the epitome of musical talent; and that "50 Shades of Grey" trumps all the works of Shakespeare combined. I think it's ok to be weird if being normal means I have to worship the Kardashians or shop exclusively at Walmart.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 12:09:37 GMT -5
Lena- I may have worded that wrong. What I meant to say is that you are running the risk of giving them the impression that you may think less of them. Not that you actually do. My bad- I should have censored my opinion and worded it better. But yes that is my opinion and only my opinion.
to the second: yes- to an extent I do mean to imply that by dictating what MY child can or can't do, wear, say, act etc (so long as it's not a safety issue) without considering HIS feelings on the subject is a form of disrespect. That's MY opinion and that's the way I see it.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 12:10:04 GMT -5
What is the back hair phase? Are girls using rogaine on their backs or something? This sounds gross.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 12:10:42 GMT -5
When your kids are supporting themselves then they can make their own choices. I freaked out when DS told me he spent a small fortune on electrolysis because he thought he was too hairy. IMHO, he wasn't because he was a guy and guys are hairy but it bothered him. He wasn't under my roof anymore and I wasn't paying his bills so even though I disagreed, it was his choice. If I'd still been supporting him, no way would that money have been pissed away like that. He has facial hair. I don't like facial hair at all, period. But it's his business because he's a self supporting adult. DD doesn't have a tattoo even though she wants one. Why? Because I am still supporting her and those are my rules. When she supports herself, she can do what she wants. She has already nixed a lot of original ideas because she has seen girls with sleeveless dresses and all with them showing and she doesn't like that look. But she's 23 and will be almost 24 when she is totally on her own. Then so be it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:10:49 GMT -5
"50 Shades of Grey" trumps all the works of Shakespeare combined.
That makes me feel stabby. I get the same way anytime someone compares Twilight to Shakespeare.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 12, 2012 12:11:50 GMT -5
To answer the OP question based on comments from the thread--No we are not entitled to good treatment, nor should we expect it...from anyone.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 12, 2012 12:11:52 GMT -5
::If it stank something nasty I would request that he eat his dinner on the patio or roll down his window in the car. ::
Telling him to eat his dinner on the patio is isolating him from the family and expressing that you don't love him or want to be around him.
::See, I don't get this. IMO you are the parent & make the rules. I'm not letting my kid go out in something I find inappropriate regardless of his personal style or how cool it is. ::
Some parents care more about being their kid's friend and not offending them than parenting them. It can work out ok if your kid is naturally responsible.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 12:12:55 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 12:13:08 GMT -5
I probably meant to say black hair phase. Something bad looking on most people unless you are olive toned skin but on an Irish strawberry blonde, super freaky looking!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:13:19 GMT -5
What I meant to say is that you are running the risk of giving them the impression that you may think less of them.
Well I HOPE by the time we are arguing over wardrobe that I have instilled in Gwen that I love her no matter what, I just don't agree with her clothing choices and it ain't going to fly in my house.
I'm not willing to let things go based on the assumption that I might her hurt her feelings. I am also apparently more old school than I thought and don't believe she needs an explaination every single time I put my foot down on something.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jul 12, 2012 12:13:42 GMT -5
This thread grew two pages while I was trying to catch up. We'll see how much it grows while I'm simply typing this response.
On some level, I am laughing because so many people who on this thread are saying "I live in the real world" are people who, on other threads, I have to remind myself obviously don't live in the same world I do.
Please note that I am the girl who walked across campus, after dark, by herself, at least 3 times a week for 6 years. I did use campus escort to get home the year I would have had to cross a park with no lights- not because I was afraid, but because there was no way to see to avoid the goose crap. (And that stuff STINKS.) I did this even the year that some girls on my campus got attacked. Once, I even did it while wearing a bridesmaid dress. I'm also the woman who walked by herself, at midnight, from a pub in the heart of Dublin, across the river, to the hotel. Why? Because I refuse to live my life in fear of what others might do. I happen to like walking. I happen to really like walking at night. I walk with a sense of purpose. I take in my surroundings and am aware of what is going on around me. I will not let the insecurities, fears, and bad behavior of others dictate how I live my life. As I mentioned in earlier posts, I can NOT control the actions of others. I CAN control how I act.
For DQ and others who want to pass the message that dressing like a goth means you'll have to work at Hot Topic the rest of your life, don't let your kids watch NCIS.
For those who claim a kid doesn't know who they are at 6, I will respectfully disagree. I'm pretty certain 6 year olds more fully know who they are than adults do, because they don't have the pressures of trying to balance who they are and who society thinks they are. raeoflyte certainly has more personal experience with transgender issues than I do, but it is something that I've been interested in and done quite a bit of reading on. It appears that many, many kids who are transgendered do, in fact, know by the time they are 6 years old. They may not be able to express it the way an adult would, but they know. There are numerous support groups for these families, including summer camps designed especially for them, where everyone gets to dress exactly like they want with no one saying anything.
I have said before and I will say again. We all judge. We all judge every other person we interact with every day. Sometimes are judgements are good, sometimes they are bad. Most of the time, we won't actually even remember them an hour later. But we judge. We cannot control the fact that other people will judge us. We cannot control what their final judgement- good or bad -will be. We can only control how we react to it.
There are no "but"s when it comes to victims of violence. The only person/people responsible are the attackers. Period. We tell people there are things they can do to prevent them from being a victim of violent crime, because we all feel the desire to be in control. But that's actually the BS. There is nothing we can do ourselves to prevent someone else from attacking us if that's what they want to do. There are things we can do that will make us more likely to escape the situation or get out of it alive, but there is NOTHING we can do to prevent the attack. Why? Because other people's actions are not under our control. Only our reactions.
There is a difference between being picked on or teased and being bullied. My child needs to learn how to cope with teasing, no doubt about that. My child should never have to learn to "cope" with being bullied. Adults need to do their jobs, and just as in Pink's case, sometimes we as parents need to step up and make them do their jobs. I don't think we should have to, but sometimes we do. What we should never need to do is tell our children that the bullying is the result of their own choices. Because it's not. Plenty of people (kids and adults) see a little boy wearing pink and don't bully him. Plenty of people see kids dressed as goths and don't call them freaks. In fact, the majority of people don't bully others. It is the bullys who are the anomaly, not the person expressing themselves. And it is only the bully who is at fault for their actions. As someone else mentioned, a bully is going to bully. They are going to look for someone to pick on, no matter what, because that is something within them. It has absolultely NOTHING to do with the person they choose as their victim. NOTHING. So why make my child feel like it is their fault? Why make my child feel like they have to conform in order to make the bullying stop? Because it won't stop. Because it has nothing to do with the victim. I would rather my child feel comfortable with who (s)he is, and know that I am comfortable with who (s)he is than try to tell them to stop being who they are because of one person's inability to act apropriately. I believe that is the best "prevention" I can give, because it doesn't pretend I can control the actions of the bully, it instead feeds into the way my child (and I) respond. Some people will choose to conform- and there's nothing wrong with that. Some people will choose to flaunt their differences even more- and there's nothing wrong with that, either.
It is my job as a parent to stick up for my child, and to hold the other adults involved in the situation responsible for doing their jobs. If the teachers aren't doing anything about excessive teasing/bullying, then yes, I move my kid to a different school and I consider a law suit because the teachers aren't following the school's/district's guidelines about providing a safe environment for all students. It is my job as a parent to give my child the tools to escape/survive any type of attack. To make sure that they can come out the other side healthy and happy, even if it takes a while and counseling to get there. Because that is what I can control. It is my job as a parent to love my child and to be their advocate, first and formost.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:14:36 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
quotes part of a deleted post
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 12:14:38 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 12:15:30 GMT -5
After I pushed the button, I realized it was probably black hair.
The funny thing about talking about goth teens, is that teens are most likely doing it to (a) stand out and shock someone or (b) fit in with the crowd who originally did it for reason A. So protesting that we shouldn't think they are freaks is somewhat contrary to what they really want us to think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 12:15:48 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:19:04 GMT -5
The funny thing about talking about goth teens, is that teens are most likely doing it to (a) stand out and shock someone or (b) fit in with the crowd who originally did it for reason A. So protesting that we shouldn't think they are freaks is somewhat contrary to what they really want us to thinkI totally agree with you. As my senior English teacher said "You're not non-conformist. You are still conforming to the non- comformists views". I never understood why they got pissed that people were staring at them because aren't you putting the bar thu your nose to get attention? Otherwise why do it? I get someone is going to say it is "self expression" but it's kinda hard to keep other people from seeing a giant barbell hanging out your nose, so you have to at least be aware others are going to notice. Oh that reminds me of when my brother wanted to get a giant wolf tattoo across his chest at 16 and wanted my dad to sign off on it (now they've changed it, you have to be 18 period). My dad said hell no, not while my brother was under his roof. My brother argued that it was self expression, so and so got one etc etc. My dad said that is fine you can get one when not only can you pay for it but when it dawns on you that your "self expression" is permenant you can get it removed. As far as I know that isn't one of the things my brother claims "made him the way he is today", but I think it illustrates better what I am trying to express myself.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 12:21:29 GMT -5
Why do they feel the need to express themselves if they don't want anyone to see it or notice it? If it is something you are doing for yourself, then go ahead and do it in private. If it is something you are doing to show off, then expect people to look at it.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 12:23:22 GMT -5
ok- I'm done arguing. We are never going to agree on this issue. We are all going to go home tonight and stick with whatever parenting style we woke up with today. Getting all worked up isn't going to change anything.
I'm going to eat my lunch and finish my to do list for the day so I can take tomorrow off to volunteer at the Relay for Life.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 12:24:09 GMT -5
And I'm not talking about anything besides rape. Other analogies don't work with rape culture. I don't really understand this. I get that rape is more personal than some crimes & historically rape has been very victim-blaming. But, I don't see that somehow it is a completely different ball of wax than many other personal crimes. Not trying to offend anyone, but it feels like some people here put victims of rape on some sort of pedestal. If I leave my car running unattended, people will say "are you a moron" when it gets stolen. But, if a young women goes to a frat party alone, gets blackout drunk & gets raped, we are all going to hell for even thinking "maybe attending a frat party alone wasn't a good decision". When in reality attending a frat party alone isn't a good idea & most college girls are certainly aware of that fact - I know we had a rule where we didn't go to parties alone or leave anyone behind at a party. Sure it isn't her fault some guy is a dick & deserves to be shot & 95% of the time the same action won't end up in rape, but you sure as hell are putting yourself in a situation where it is more likely to occur. Just like going back to someone who hit you will increase the odds of getting hit again. Or leaving you car running will increase the odds of it being stolen. I'm sorry that it somehow offends people that the reality is our choices do affect what happens to us.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:24:35 GMT -5
Why do they feel the need to express themselves if they don't want anyone to see it or notice it?
I don't get it either. That was my point about the goth chick going on to the journalism students about being "judged".
Uh. ..if you want to be treated like a normal person then why are you dressing like that? Peopel form their opinions in the first 20 seconds they meet you and those first 20 seconds of taking in your appearance is a doozy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 12:25:21 GMT -5
I feel like a bunch of us are speaking different languages because a LOT is getting lost in translation.
1. do kids not have a personality outside of makeup/clothing?
2. how does not allowing your kid to dress in a certain way you find distasteful translating into you not loving them/thinking they're subpar?
I have standards and I don't care WHO has a problem with it. I will teach my kids to be tolerant and accepting the very best I can (even if I personally feel that I shouldn't have to), but don't assume other parents will do the same. ETA: and making me feel like I'm a horrible parent because I won't allow my kids to dress like pimps/strippers/mimes/thugs is distressing to say the very least.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:27:09 GMT -5
But, if a young women goes to a frat party alone, gets blackout drunk & gets raped, we are all going to hell for even thinking "maybe attending a frat party alone wasn't a good decision". When in reality attending a frat party alone isn't a good idea & most college girls are certainly aware of that fact Apparently my mom is going to hell because she always drilled into me that at a party I should never ever let my drink leave my hand and never drink from open containers because someone might have put something in there. I don't get why it is un-PC to educate yourself about safety. Sure if someone wants to put something in my drink that badly they will find a way to do it, but that doesn't mean I need to set up an opportunity for them either.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 12:28:26 GMT -5
When I look at people who try oh so hard to self-express themselves, I often wonder if they even know what is it exactly they try to self-express. What exactly purple hair is suppose to say to the world about you.
And while I agree that parents should let children to make their own decisions, and deal with consequences, two things I think should be done before that:
1. You need to make sure that your kid understands and really is ready to deal with whatever consequences. Saying to a 6 yr old - "go ahead and wear girl's shirt but you might get beat up" may or may not be too abstract for him. (I am not that familiar with 6 yr old's brain) 2. They will have a life time worth of decisions after they are 18, and it is my job, my responsibility to make sure that until then I guide them through those decisions. Bc as liberating as it might sound - oh I let my 14, 15, 16 yr old do X,Y and Z - they are still CHILDREN and although THEY might think so, don't know A LOT.
Lena
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 12:28:50 GMT -5
I have actually found this a really interesting thread (although the whole forray into rape victims was a little too much hyperbole for me.) I think the problem is that there is no right answer. Different kids, different ages, different schools, different peer groups, different pink shirts, different regions and micro-cultures - it is all on a continuium. As Dark said, his own boss nearly beat him up at the company picnic, but my husband could wear pink shirts all day, every day and no one would think twice. I might let my son do something when he is 16 that I would discourage at 6. I would treat the situation differently if my son had certain personality traits vs. others.
And yes, of course we are all going to stick with our own parenting styles. Do you really think you are going to change people? But, I find hearing other's thoughts on the subject interesting. I also think it is eye opening to see how people are judging me behind my back. Of course, y'all are too polite to say anything, but the fact that my kids are pretty much in the big part of the bell curve must mean that I beat them into submission and they will spend their entire lives hating me and having to go to therapy to deal with my heavy handed parenting style. I guess only time will tell.
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jul 12, 2012 12:29:09 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
quotes a deleted post, in addition to the fact that intimate grooming habits just don't need to be discussed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 12:29:59 GMT -5
I am all for personal responsibility and I agree that people should avoid putting themselves into situations that are potentially dangerous. My issue was with cranberry's short skirt comment.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:30:26 GMT -5
1. do kids not have a personality outside of makeup/clothing
They do. Just as I have a personality outside being short. But I am also aware that people form opinions in the first 10-20 seconds they meet me.
For whatever reason being as short as I am people associate it with being young which in turn associates to being immature.
I got to spend the interview disabusing them of that notion, but I can't pretend that the judgement never happened, we all know it did.
When you have purple hair and a barbell hanging out your nose in those first 20 seconds people are going to form a rather interesting opinion. It's up to them if they want to get past it or not.
Being pissed off because when people see your giant barbell their intial reaction isn't "What a lovely awesome person!" is insane. You wouldn't have the barebell in your nose if you didn't want to get a reaction from other people for it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 12, 2012 12:30:27 GMT -5
Here's the thing, Firebird. Nobody here blames the victim for anything. I guess I should say that I don't. I can't speak for everyone. People get all upset if a person even mentions there are ways to make yourself less attractive as a victim. Sorry. But there are. It's reality. It's not blame-placing. Counsel a room full of women who have basically had their lives taken away from them. Have them ask if there is anything they can do to lessen their chances of ever having to go through it again. Are you going to tell them there is nothing they can do? Cause that isn't true and it's harmful. There ARE things a person can do to lessen their chances of being attacked. It has nothing to do with blame placing - it has to do with prevention. Yes, let's definitely focus on how to lessen one's chances of being raped. Although good data is hard to find since this crime is known to be underreported and stats change from year to year, based on a review of the statistics available, here are the best ways to prevent rape: ***Not be a female. (Women account for approximately 94% of victims.) ***Never be alone with family members or dates. (Stranger rape accounts for less than 10% of rape, depending on population and location.) ***Not be a minor. (Minors account for a little over 50% of rape cases.) So instead of talking about BS like not wearing a skirt, let's get back to the real issue. You can't solve issues by changing the victims because the problem has nothing to do with the victim in the vast majority of cases. And if you're talking to rape victims about what they should and shouldn't wear, I hope one of them gets outraged enough to throw a shoe in your general direction. You deserve it. Just like with Thyme's example of bullying starting with one incident and then moving on to being based on the kid using his left hand or being picked up by his mom or whatever other thing is the "reason" of the day... it has nothing to do with the kid being bullied and everything to do with a culture that allows this type of behaviour.
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