Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 15:38:20 GMT -5
In the last three days, I've heard the following three postulations (none on these boards, although one was a comment from someone I was telling about the airline discussion on the boards):
1. If you are obese, you should expect that some people will ridicule you.
2. If you are a little boy who likes to wear pink to school, you should expect that some of the other kids will tease/bully you.
3. If you are pregnant and you're not married, you should expect certain people to judge you negatively.
And usually these statements are followed up with "but really, you have a right to live however you want and do whatever you want - it's just, you know, there are consequences to certain behaviors/actions."
So I've been thinking. If we behave in certain ways that are not approved of by mainstream society, do we forfeit our [perceived?] right to decent treatment, lack of judgment, whatever you want to call it? If we do certain things or indulge in certain lifestyles, should we simply expect people to be mean to us?
Are other people justified in making fun of us, judging us, shaming us, if our behavior is "wrong" enough by societal standards? Is that merely a consequence of living the way we want?
We want to teach kids personal responsibility, that they are the only people accountable for their actions and the consequences of those actions. Does that include owning the possibility that people will treat you badly based on certain choices you make?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 15:45:11 GMT -5
I liked Thyme's point from the other thread about whether or not we like it these choices have consequences. For the rest of our how we dress & present ourselves has consequences. It may not be as harsh as getting teased in school, but it can certainly cost you job opportunities & credibility. We had a crossdresser (whatever the PC name is) apply for a job, not a huge surprise that the company didn't hire him. The choice to crossdress puts out an image & the company didn't want him representing the them with that image.
A boy wearing pink is outside of the societal norms & going to get a reaction from people.
I was at a friend's party the other day & noticed one of the boys (3 yrs old) had painted pink fingernails & I'll be honest that I thought it was odd. Should we always let kids be/do whatever they want or should there be a point where you explain to your kids that boys generally don't wear pink or paint their nails? I would think as much as I want my kids to have freedom of self-expression, I also don't want to lead them down a path towards getting mocked or bullied later on in life.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 11, 2012 15:47:13 GMT -5
Are you a Sagittarius Firebird?
I ask because you seem to be cerebral, but at the same time very interested in what is fair or just.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where everyone treated everyone else with a baseline of respect. We don't. I think it is nice to teach children that values are more important than emotions and that we should treat people with respect even if they hurt our feelings or we don't feel like they deserve it. We seem to have become a culture where feelings reign supreme, rendering us babies who can't act beyond our emotions or better than our emotions in some ways. If you believe your values are more powerful than your feelings it can protect you both from your worst self and the worst selves of others.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 15:47:48 GMT -5
My above comment was more in response to the conversation on the previous thread, but I think you should expect the treatment you mentioned in the OP. It isn't right nor fair, but it will happen.
People will judge you for how you dress & choices you make, you should expect that always.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 15:49:24 GMT -5
Should we always let kids be/do whatever they want or should there be a point where you explain to your kids that boys generally don't wear pink or paint their nails? I would think as much as I want my kids to have freedom of self-expression, I also don't want to lead them down a path towards getting mocked or bullied later on in life.
Angel, I know the little boy I mentioned in the OP. He's a wonderful kid and reading this absolutely breaks my heart. I don't think you're wrong, I just find it incredibly sad that his parents can't let him wear his favorite color jacket to school because by doing so they might be setting him up to be mocked or bullied.
The corporate thing I can understand. If you show up to an interview looking like The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, it's going to limit your options in most jobs.
But the idea of a kid being shut out - or victimized - because of a simple clothing choice seems a lot worse to me somehow.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 15:53:00 GMT -5
Are you a Sagittarius Firebird? I ask because you seem to be cerebral, but at the same time very interested in what is fair or just.
Nope, Pisces.
To be honest, I've been thinking more and more lately about these issues (and many others) mainly because I've been giving serious thought to what lessons I want to teach my daughter.
Left to my own devices, I'm basically a hard-ass about most things. But there's something about knowing I'm bringing an innocent baby into the world that's making me realize, I don't necessarily want my kid to be like me.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 11, 2012 16:02:02 GMT -5
It'd be nice but good luck getting it. There are assholes that live in the world and you have to learn to deal with them.
I look about 17 years old at first glance, so when I was pregnant I would occassionally get some looks. But so what? It is not my problem. I know that I am a married 28 year old professional. Who cares what other people think?
I could stand there and argue with them, flash my wedding ring, pull out my W2, show my driver's license, but why? They'll find something else to judge me about.
It's not always easy. Sometimes it sucks when you are judged, but that is part of life. We all judge people on some level. It's a part of human nature.
What I plan on teaching Gwen is that you have to learn to deal with it and move on. You can't expect the world to be full of unicorn farts and sunshine.
I also plan on helping her distinguish when it is something that you should allow to roll off your back (like dirty looks in the maternity department) vs things that are actual harassment and you need to tell someone.
I also plan on helping her learn when it is all right to pass a judgement vs when you need to keep an open mind.
I won't be perfect at any of this but then I am not meant to be. She should see my mistakes/judgements and DH's as well. It's part of learning not to repeat them.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 16:08:40 GMT -5
I liked Thyme's point from the other thread about whether or not we like it these choices have consequences. For the rest of our how we dress & present ourselves has consequences. It may not be as harsh as getting teased in school, but it can certainly cost you job opportunities & credibility. We had a crossdresser (whatever the PC name is) apply for a job, not a huge surprise that the company didn't hire him. The choice to crossdress puts out an image & the company didn't want him representing the them with that image. A boy wearing pink is outside of the societal norms & going to get a reaction from people. I was at a friend's party the other day & noticed one of the boys (3 yrs old) had painted pink fingernails & I'll be honest that I thought it was odd. Should we always let kids be/do whatever they want or should there be a point where you explain to your kids that boys generally don't wear pink or paint their nails? I would think as much as I want my kids to have freedom of self-expression, I also don't want to lead them down a path towards getting mocked or bullied later on in life. Really? He probably just wanted to be like mom. If you saw a little girl pretending to shave alongside her dad, would you think that was "odd"? No, but I would have thought it odd if they actually shaved the little girl. It isn't a huge deal, but I find it odd personally. I know my son saw me painting my nails before & I've just told him it is something that mommy's do, same with makeup. If I don't start teaching this stuff at 3 & 4 he might really like wearing his lipstick or painting his nails & then get mocked later in life when he wants to wear this stuff to 1st grade. As much as I feel for a little boy that gets made fun of for wearing a pink coat to school, I wonder why the parents would buy their 3 year old a pink coat or why they couldn't just tell him it isn't a school coat. It is our job to protect our kids from the world & dressing them up & sending them out in a way that will get them mocked (as wrong as the mocking is) is setting them up for failure. A 3 yr old doesn't set the rules & you don't have to let him pick out the coat you buy or he wears.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 11, 2012 16:11:06 GMT -5
I probably would have thought the boy wearing hot pink, purple, or neon yellow was strange years ago. Then my DD started HS. Trust me that it isn't unusual at all these days.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:11:24 GMT -5
Normal is so yesterday! Really - how many kids are "normal" today? Let kids and people be who they are as long as they aren't hurting another. But be prepared that they may be getting their ass kicked. Just warn them first that it may happen and explain to them why. Also include that it's because the world is full of closed minded people. It doesn't make the free spirited kid wrong. But you want them to be safe and prepared emotionally too. I would suggest to my kid that they may want to express them self on weekends, etc. if I had concerns they'd be beat up.
The cross dresser should do that on his own time. Not at work. Unless the job has an environment that accepts cross dressers. But no professional office would allow that behavior that I know. They should have sense enough to know that. I wouldn't hire somebody who didn't have sense enough to know that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:19:16 GMT -5
As much as I feel for a little boy that gets made fun of for wearing a pink coat to school, I wonder why the parents would buy their 3 year old a pink coat or why they couldn't just tell him it isn't a school coat.
A lot of his favorite pink clothes formerly belonged to his big sister. Since he happens to like the color, he's been inheriting her stuff for awhile now. But also, the family in general is very open and accepting and all about free expression. I can't imagine them refusing to buy him pink clothes because boys shouldn't wear pink even if he didn't have an older sister.
And I really can't wrap my mind around the idea of a little boy wearing pink being "cross dressing."
Also, I think he's six years old. If that matters.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:21:50 GMT -5
It'd be nice but good luck getting it. There are assholes that live in the world and you have to learn to deal with them. I look about 17 years old at first glance, so when I was pregnant I would occasionally get some looks. But so what? It is not my problem. I know that I am a married 28 year old professional. Who cares what other people think? I could stand there and argue with them, flash my wedding ring, pull out my W2, show my driver's license, but why? They'll find something else to judge me about. It's not always easy. Sometimes it sucks when you are judged, but that is part of life. We all judge people on some level. It's a part of human nature. What I plan on teaching Gwen is that you have to learn to deal with it and move on. You can't expect the world to be full of unicorn farts and sunshine. I also plan on helping her distinguish when it is something that you should allow to roll off your back (like dirty looks in the maternity department) vs things that are actual harassment and you need to tell someone. I also plan on helping her learn when it is all right to pass a judgment vs when you need to keep an open mind. I won't be perfect at any of this but then I am not meant to be. She should see my mistakes/judgments and DH's as well. It's part of learning not to repeat them. I agree 100%! I was trying to tell that to a poster who got upset and took a break from here. I'm the exact opposite of her in probably every way and get the same comments that she did about my lifestyle! I know that I'm probably on the "better/easier" side of the comments but my point was that I still get the exact same put downs even though I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Nobody is exempt here. When she gets where she wants to be she will still hear something negative about what she is doing from somebody. You have to be true to yourself and not worry about other's opinions (unless it's from supposedly good friends or family). If you have somebody in your life that you know loves you or you can trust tell you something then I'd pay attention to that. Maybe. ;D
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 11, 2012 16:23:53 GMT -5
I taught my kid it's rude to stare, point, or laugh at someone who looks different from you. You can think what you want inside, but you can't say it out loud. You also can't make derogatory comments about someone who is gay, a different religion or a different race from you.
I'm not saying he didn't do this sometimes, but I tried to make it clear that you have to be polite, even if you don't like how they look or disapprove of what they're doing.
That said, some people make it very hard on themselves. I remember listening to a girl with face tattoos (not a few tattoos on her face, but about 1/3 of her face tattooed) and a nose ring gripe about how people stared at her.
Honey, you have ink on 1/3 of your face and a big gold ring in your nose. You don't see that every day, so people will look twice at you, or even stare, and they will make judgements about someone who is willing to decorate themselves that way. If you don't want that attention, you shouldn't look that way.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 11, 2012 16:26:10 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
Loony. please familiarize yourself with the Terms of Service.
18. OBJECTIONABLE CONTENT
[/red]You represent and warrant that you shall not use the Website or Services to upload, post, transmit, display, perform or distribute any content, information or materials that:[/red] (a) are libelous, defamatory, abusive, or threatening, excessively violent, harassing, obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or pornographic; (b) constitute child pornography; (c) solicit personal information from or exploit in a sexual or violent manner anyone under the age of 18; (d) incite, encourage or threaten physical harm against another; (e)[red] promote or glorify racial intolerance, use hate and/or racist terms, or signify hate towards any person or group of people; [/red]
....there is more after this....
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 11, 2012 16:26:23 GMT -5
Normal is so yesterday! Really - how many kids are "normal" today? Let kids and people be who they are as long as they aren't hurting another. But be prepared that they may be getting their ass kicked. Just warn them first that it may happen and explain to them why. Also include that it's because the world is full of closed minded people. It doesn't make the free spirited kid wrong. But you want them to be safe and prepared emotionally too. I would suggest to my kid that they may want to express them self on weekends, etc. if I had concerns they'd be beat up. The cross dresser should do that on his own time. Not at work. Unless the job has an environment that accepts cross dressers. But no professional office would allow that behavior that I know. They should have sense enough to know that. I wouldn't hire somebody who didn't have sense enough to know that. So you have been to my DD HS. ;D Most young people are actually much more accepting of this than adults. The adults judge. The kids couldn't care less most of the time. I do agree that when someone goes for a job interview they should dress appropiately for the job. That is why it is called a job and not fun.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 11, 2012 16:26:26 GMT -5
When I was in high school I babysat a kid whose parents had very non-traditional gender roles. His mom was a wilderness firefighting hotshot. She had big muscles and made a ton of money. His dad grew plants and trees for a living.
When he was five he moved out of his parents house and into a tent in the backyard. He stayed in the tent for three years, even when we got 18 inches of snow. When he was 6 he started painting his nails and wearing necklaces to school. One of my friends was his teacher. She said kids made fun of him, but he had lots of friends and really didn't care. He had a lot of fortitude, respected others and he liked himself, so other people liked him too. Being made fun of isn't the end of the world. I bet all of us were at one point in our lives. As a former teacher, I think It is the kids who don't even have one friend that end up with or have serious problems. Studies on outcomes show the same. Kids can handle getting picked on if they have just one friend.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:26:30 GMT -5
You have to be true to yourself and not worry about other's opinions (unless it's from supposedly good friends or family).
And if it is?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:29:13 GMT -5
susanb, I love that story about the boy in his tent I guess this is what it's about for me - the line I want to walk. I don't want my kid to be afraid of what other people think, and I sure as shit don't want her making decisions about who she is based on what other people think. On the other hand, I think I have a responsibility to help her understand that the world is not always kind - at LEAST so she knows what she might encounter out there. While at the same time not discouraging her choices (as long as they're not hurting people).
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 16:32:00 GMT -5
As much as I feel for a little boy that gets made fun of for wearing a pink coat to school, I wonder why the parents would buy their 3 year old a pink coat or why they couldn't just tell him it isn't a school coat. A lot of his favorite pink clothes formerly belonged to his big sister. Since he happens to like the color, he's been inheriting her stuff for awhile now. But also, the family in general is very open and accepting and all about free expression. I can't imagine them refusing to buy him pink clothes because boys shouldn't wear pink even if he didn't have an older sister. And I really can't wrap my mind around the idea of a little boy wearing pink being "cross dressing." I don't consider it cross-dressing either, the cross-dresser just came to mind when thinking of how later in life we get judged also. Personally I think it was their mistake in putting him in all the girly clothes. Had they never started dressing him in pink, then they wouldn't be running into this situation now where what he wants to wear doesn't match what society thinks he should wear. It is great that the family is open & accepting & believes in free expression, but now their son is getting picked on because of that. If my son suddenly decides he likes pink skirts, I will let him wear pink skirts all day long at home. But, no matter his feelings I am just going to tell him that boys can't wear pink skirts to school. I am not going to set my son up for failure by not teaching him societal norms. If at say 15, he still loves pink skirts & wants to wear them to school fully understanding the possible consequences, then that will be his decision. At 3 or 6 a kid won't understand the consequences of wearing pink to school & as much as I would like the world to be understanding & non-judgemental of that choice, it isn't. IMO, it is my job as a parent of a young child to keep them from making those mistakes. As much as I would like to change the world around him so he will never be judged, I can't.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 11, 2012 16:33:10 GMT -5
susanb, I love that story about the boy in his tent I guess this is what it's about for me - the line I want to walk. I don't want my kid to be afraid of what other people think, and I sure as shit don't want her making decisions about who she is based on what other people think. On the other hand, I think I have a responsibility to help her understand that the world is not always kind - at LEAST so she knows what she might encounter out there. While at the same time not discouraging her choices (as long as they're not hurting people). Oh! This is what its all about... Tell your kid truth about your feelings and make them to tell you the truth back! Pull it out of them if they resist! But you have to make them talk! Otherwise they can hurt themselves in silence. I had started from 'everythig you have and will have come from parents...so NO there is no Santa Claus!'
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 11, 2012 16:33:45 GMT -5
When I was in school kids who couldn't afford name brand clothes used to get made fun of. In the 6th grade black jeans had just become popular (God, I am getting old) and lots of girls had the Calvin Klein black jeans and my parents either couldn't afford them or just refused to spend that much money on them - I really have no idea which. At any rate, I got some off brand pair of black jeans and there were a couple of girls who made fun of me because I didn't have the Calvin Klein ones. I am not saying the ridiculing didn't hurt my feelings because it did but I think I am a better person today because I learned that sometimes people are just jerks and it is okay to tell them to go screw themselves. I understand the concept behind not wanting to put your child in a situation where they are going to be picked on and I probably wouldn't encourage it but I also think learning that in certain situations it is okay to be yourself and tell someone to take a long walk on a short pier can be a good thing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 11, 2012 16:35:06 GMT -5
::If we do certain things or indulge in certain lifestyles, should we simply expect people to be mean to us? ::
Yes, you should expect it. It doesn't make it right. But you shouldn't do things blindly without considering what a likely outcome is, even if that likely outcome is unfair.
For example, I have a tattoo, I would like more tattoos. I would like some of my tattoos to be in places which would be visible in what I normally wear to work. I don't get them because I expect that some people will make judgements based on a 6'6", shaved head, tattoos down the arm, kinda guy walking in for an interview. Do I have every right to go ahead and get them? Absolutely. Is it wrong that others would judge me based on having a tattoo that's visible? I think so. But my expectation of what people will do is greater than my desire to get my arm all tatted up.
If I really cared enough, I could do it, and people who made assumptions or judgements based on one tattoo would IMO be in the wrong. But you shouldn't just do things willy nilly because you didn't care enough to consider how others may act toward you. If you decide it's still worth it, then great. Some things are worth the "wrath" of others, some aren't. It's up to you to decide for yourself, but after you've considered things, not just because you have an attitude of "I just do whatever i want and now I'm going to complain about consequences I should have known were coming".
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:35:38 GMT -5
You have to be true to yourself and not worry about other's opinions (unless it's from supposedly good friends or family).And if it is? Listen to what they have to say. If you don't like it or agree with it go on as you were. If it's about something you've questioned about yourself - then do something about it.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 11, 2012 16:36:20 GMT -5
Great goals, Firebird. I don't know how to do it, but the boy in my stories parents did. They were amazing parents. They also didn't allow their kids to watch commercials or anything with branding (pbs kids and videos were watched), so they asked for the coolest gifts as young children. When the boy was four he asked for a large box, a cabbage and his own role of tape for Christmas. He got everything on the list and was tickled pink with the empty refrigerator box he turned into a house and the tape that he could waste at his discretion. They created a magical world for their kids, but I can't say that I know how they did it or how it will turn out.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 11, 2012 16:36:45 GMT -5
Actually - I would like to clarify my statement. I actually said that if you are being teased for something that you can control (especially if it is outside the norm) you have the choice to change it. I did not say that the boy should expect to be bullied, just that once he was bullied for wearing pink, he could chose to continue to wear pink and find a way to deal with the bullies, or he could chose to stop wearing pink and see if that decreases the bullying. He can chose to solve his own problem - even though he didn't do anything wrong.
It is a completely different question. Of course people should[/i] be treated respectfully. Of couse people should[/i] be able to make choices and decisions that only affect themselves and not have to deal with other's berating them. No question that assholes are assholes and should STFU, but they don't. So, at what point do you say "It is only a pink shirt. How badly do I want to fight someone in a pointless battle to wear it."
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:37:50 GMT -5
LIAR!!!
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 11, 2012 16:38:21 GMT -5
[quote author=hoops902 board=offtopic thread=24461 post=1136666 time=1342042506
For example, I have a tatoo[/quote]
Please please please tell me WHY do people get tatooes? What does it do to you? Its ugly 99.9% of the time. What is it? Bad taste? Or cry for attention?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jul 11, 2012 16:38:33 GMT -5
I'm fat. I expect to be judged, even when it's not people judging me specificially, but judging all fat people, or the majority of fat people. I do my best to remove myself from those situations when it gets too frustrating for me (which is part of why I haven't been on the airline thread since like page 8 or something- I haven't even read it, becuase it often seems I'm the only fat poster on YM, or at least the only one willing to admit it.) What I have to do is protect myself. I can't stop you judging me (just like you can't stop me judging you), but I can control my reaction, and I refuse to be shamed for being me.
We all judge. It is part of the human condition. So yes, everyone should expect to be judged for everything they do. Sometimes that judgement will be positive. Sometimes it will be negative. We can not control how other people judge us, only our reactions. For examply, I could totally read susanb's post and ask- how does my being fat hurt your feelings? Or are you saying that because my being fat goes against your values, than obviously, you are in the right, because you commenting on my being fat only hurts my feelings, and your values matter more than my feelings? I do NOT think this is what susanb meant. But it is a way I could react to it. I choose not to.
I don't think there's anything wrong with little boys liking pink. In fact, studies show that boys and girls like pink the same amount right up until about the age when we start telling them- oh, boys don't like pink and oh, girls like pink. Color preference is a societal construct. (And I know some guys that look awesome in pink.)
I think the important thing to teach our kids is that people are always going to judge you based on what you look like and how you present yourself. Some of the judging will be positive. Some will be negative. It is up to you to decide if going along with what society or living your life on your terms is more important. Going against society is VERY difficult, and there is nothing wrong if you decide not to buck the system. But if you want to live your life on your terms, regardless of whether or not I, as a parent, agree with your decisions, I will love you.
Now, I live in Seattle, which is one of the more liberal places in the country, but my company has a specific trans gender policy, and we are not allowed to discriminate based on anything gender related. (And yes, I work in a professional environment.) As long as the guy is wearing a work appropriate dress, he can. As long as the woman is wearing a work apropriate suit, she can. (We never think about women wearing men's clothing at work as being inappropriate, do we. Cross dressers are always men in most people's thoughts.) This is true regardless of whether or not they are seeking gender reassignment surgery. But, that's also the attitude my company chooses to present to the world, and therefore, we have no problems with having transgender people represent us.
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Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:40:48 GMT -5
Beautifully stated! Shanen - I think cross dressers are not the same as trans-gender. Cross dressers like to wear the other sex's clothes but is still a man (who likes lingerie/women's stuff) and a woman (who likes ties and man's stuff). I've only met a couple but one guy started unbuttoning his shirt and showed me he had a teddy underneath his clothes. When he saw that I thought it was pretty and didn't care what he wore he unbuttoned more buttons. He told me it was a Teddy - he didn't show me. But he could have if he wanted to. He was good looking! He was also married but his wife couldn't deal. He was heartbroken.
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 11, 2012 16:41:25 GMT -5
[quote author=hoops902 board=offtopic thread=24461 post=1136666 time=1342042506 For example, I have a tatoo Please please please tell me WHY do people get tatooes? What does it do to you? Its ugly 99.9% of the time. What is it? Bad taste? Or cry for attention?[/quote] chick...magnet. It was a strategic decision.
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