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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 7:38:30 GMT -5
regarding the OP - we can EXPECT whatever we want, that doesn't mean we'll get it. You are free to be yourself (whatever that means), but expect that you will be judged at face value by everyone that you encounter? Is that right? Well, I don't know. Sometimes is it and sometimes it isn't. As others have said, there are times when appearances are crucial and certain norms are valued. In those cases, anything deviating from the norm will be seen as problematic and you will be judged accordingly. Regarding pink - it is my favorite color, so none of my kids are allowed to like it!
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Jul 12, 2012 7:43:50 GMT -5
No time now to read through 5 pages of this (2 was enough)... but why the negativity about a pink shirt for a boy? For 40 years at least stores have been selling pink (and yellow) dress shirts for men (and boys) as one of the "standard" colors.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 12, 2012 7:54:50 GMT -5
Exactly. Well said.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 8:03:56 GMT -5
Awesome post, susanb. Karma AND blessings to you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 8:04:41 GMT -5
It's one thing to play dress up at home but letting a boy wear his sisters clothes to school isn't smart, period. As far as pink shirts for boys/men I suppose it depends on where you live. Certain areas it's fine because my son grew up wearing pink and still does. He also played dress up but, no, I wouldn't have let him wear fru fru to school or out in public anyway.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 8:30:36 GMT -5
BTW - a kid wearing pink doesn't cause bullying any more than a woman wearing a skirt causes rape. Bullying is a result of nasty, rude kids whose parents haven't done a good job of teaching them morals and values. Maybe we should be putting a little more focus on those little monsters than we should berating the kid and parents of the kid who is a good, kind, enjoyable human being who happens to have strange taste. I'm doing my job. Now if the other parents would just do theirs...
No. It does not 'cause' bullying or rape, however it ENCOURAGES others to commit the crime. I don't know about you, but having my way, be it either a boy wearing pink..at school and wearing his sisters clothes to boot --or a woman wearing a short skirt around a gang infested neighborhood, is not worth the end result to me. After the fact, just knowing I was 'right', would be no consolation to me.
However, you raise your child as you see fit. Just do not be surprised when the picking and bullying start up. I raised my five kids and I tried to be fair with them. I also had rules for them to follow. If it didn't seem, feel, or look, right. I simply put my foot down and said no. To each his/her own.
ETA: Kids can, and have shown many times, that they can be cruel. They don't think about the after effects that making fun of someone causes. That is why it is the parents job to protect them from such a possible situation. Not only that, why would you encourage your son to cross dress? Letting your son wear a 'fooffy' obviously girl jacket-- is doing just that. You may not think that's what you're doing, but, I see that as a great possibility. Don't you think life is hard enough for anyone as it is, without encouraging a behavior that could cause more tension and hardship on your son?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 8:39:54 GMT -5
BTW - a kid wearing pink doesn't cause bullying any more than a woman wearing a skirt causes rape. Bullying is a result of nasty, rude kids whose parents haven't done a good job of teaching them morals and values. Maybe we should be putting a little more focus on those little monsters than we should berating the kid and parents of the kid who is a good, kind, enjoyable human being who happens to have strange taste. I'm doing my job. Now if the other parents would just do theirs... No. It does not 'cause' bullying or rape, however it ENCOURAGES others to commit the crime. I don't know about you, but having my way, be it either a boy wearing pink..at school and wearing his sisters clothes to boot --or a woman wearing a short skirt around a gang infested neighborhood, is not worth the end result to me. After the fact, just knowing I was 'right', would be no consolation to me. x 10
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 8:50:39 GMT -5
I can't get past the statement that a woman wearing short skirt encourages someone to rape her. If a man is intent on raping a woman it won't matter WHAT outfit she has on.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 8:51:19 GMT -5
Oh great, here we go again with the rape anaology. Anyhoo to an extent I agree. I have a friend that came out of the closet in high school. Which was fine we had quite a few openly gay students. He took it to the extreme though, to the point of making out with his boyfriend in the hallway. He told me proudly that he was "sticking it to the homophobes". Should he be able to snog his boyfriend in the hallway like all the straight couples? Sure. Is it the smartest thing on the planet to do? Nope. Like it or not the reaction he gets vs the one I would get are not the same thing. The reaction he gets could end up costing him his life. I even told him that. I told him there is nothing wrong with being out and proud, but you don't need to make it into a spectator sport in an effort to get a rise out of people. Because you WILL get a rise otu of them and you won't like the results. Pink rain boots, nah i would not have any problem with that. They are rainboots. But yes I would be the judgemental bitch mom who would not let my son wear my daughter's pink poofy winter coat to school. There is letting him be himself and wear pink and then there is painting a giant target on his back. And I would not do that when he is too young to understand the consequences. If he was 18 and wanted to wear his sister's poofy pink coat I'd inform him of the kind of reactions he should expect from people and it's his choice to accept that or not. But I am not going to put a kid thru that. Some things you get bullied for you can't change. I can't change that I am only 5 foot tall, so I learned to roll with it. But I don't need to stick a young boy in a poofy pink coat to help him learn a lesson about embracing who he is. He can embrace who he is without making himself an obvious target.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 8:57:16 GMT -5
for you Drama Queen
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 8:58:57 GMT -5
I can't get past the statement that a woman wearing short skirt encourages someone to rape her. If a man is intent on raping a woman it won't matter WHAT outfit she has on. There are sick people in this world. If you ever figure out what makes a sicko tick you would be a multi-millionaire many times over. That's all I have to say about the rape subject. It goes too deep, and there are too many avenues that can be taken with this subject, and this is not the right thread to discuss this. This is my opinion and I think (unfortunately) things that we do---the way we dress, etc...can have an adverse effect on others. Be it right or wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 8:59:26 GMT -5
I can't get past the statement that a woman wearing short skirt encourages someone to rape her. If a man is intent on raping a woman it won't matter WHAT outfit she has on. I do agree with that. But sometimes people put themselves in situations where they should know better. Some female students made a ruckus when a fellow female student was attacked by a man. She was outside downtown jogging at 2:30am. Should she have gotten attacked? Unequivocably, the answer is "no". Should she have been where she was at that time of day, knowing the element of people who would be out and about then? I'm gonna say "no".
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jul 12, 2012 9:02:54 GMT -5
You know, I am a normal sized person. DD and I went to the mall yesterday and before we left, I decided to use the bathroom at JC Penney's. The stall was so cramped that in order to open the door to exit, I had to squeeze my legs in on the side of the toilet. I do think that we are entiltled to enough space to comfortably open the bathroom door. Tiny tiny bathrooms seem pretty commonplace in public places. Sad.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 9:04:12 GMT -5
I can't get past the statement that a woman wearing short skirt encourages someone to rape her. If a man is intent on raping a woman it won't matter WHAT outfit she has on. I do agree with that. But sometimes people put themselves in situations where they should know better. Some female students made a ruckus when a fellow female student was attacked by a man. She was outside downtown jogging at 2:30am. Should she have gotten attacked? Unequivocably, the answer is "no". Should she have been where she was at that time of day, knowing the element of people who would be out and about then? I'm gonna say "no". Common sense comes into play in everything we do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 9:06:46 GMT -5
I agree. What I don't agree with is blaming her clothing choice.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 9:40:39 GMT -5
I remember another one from HS. The journalism class did a news report/show thing every week. They did a piece about the goth kids and "goth culture". One of the girls on was going on about how people should not judge them.
You are wearing what is essentially mime make-up (white face, black lips) and your outfit is covered in skulls. WTF do you expect people to think when you look like that? The only reason to dress like that is to get a reaction. Sorry you aren't getting a super positive one, but DUH.
I have no problems with goth, I hung out with goth kids. But if you are going to do that then you need to own it and have a thick skin. If you can't handle the judgement then you should probably not be dressing that way.
I'd let Gwen dress in all black, but I would put my foot down on the mime make-up. You want to wear black to express "the darkness of your inner soul" then go right ahead, but you don't need to look like a freaking idiot when you do it and that's what the make-up will do. You want to wear white face then join the mime troupe.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 9:41:04 GMT -5
I agree. What I don't agree with is blaming her clothing choice. Notice, I wasn't blaming her clothing choice --per se, I was blaming her for choosing to wear the short skirt in a gang related neighborhood. Why? Why put yourself out there to be a target? Being right is not that important. At least not to me. I would rather be alive, well, and not raped if at all possible.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 9:42:48 GMT -5
The only "rule" we have with regards to DS' physical appearance is that he have good hygiene. He tends to prefer his hair cut short because he is a lazy 14 year old and doesn't want to style it. He likes t-shirts with ironic or funny sayings on them. Whatever, I could care less what he wears so long as it's clean and in good repair. If he wanted to wear a pink shirt to school I'd have no problem buying him one. We have always tried to teach him to treat everyone with respect and kindness but to not expect that everyone will have been taught that same lesson. We have discussions with him about how there will always be someone in the world that will judge him harshly or not like him because of the choices he makes. We also tell him that as his parents we will always love him unconditionally and that true friends won't care what clothes he wears or how he styles his hair.
My son is the type of kid that will scold a bully who is making fun of a kid for wearing a pink shirt. I know this for a fact because teachers have told us this. He has been "Assigned" some of the quiet, shy, awkward kids in class as his friend because the teachers knew that he would treat them with respect and kindness. I wouldn't change my kid for anything in the world. He is exactly the way he wants to be and is happy with his choices, his friends, and his lifestyle.
Shame on people who try to force their kids to be someone they aren't so that society will like them more. Are you (you in general) really going to punish a boy who wears pink rather than the bullies who tease him for it?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 9:46:20 GMT -5
It is never the victim's fault. Not ever. No matter what. Her clothing choice may make her higher on the list of potential victims because her clothing choice provides easier access than the woman in the business suit. That being said, there ARE ways to protect yourself - put yourself very low on the list of potential victims. Stride purposefully with a gait that says "I'm in charge" rather than shuffling around with your head down with a demeanor that screams "victim". Don't walk to your car alone at night (or even in the daytime). Have your car keys in your hand. Not only does this make entry to your vehicle quicker - they make a great weapon for jabbing some asswipe rapist's eye out.
We are entitled to be safe...to not be accosted, bullied, etc - regardless of the choices we make. Unfortunately, that's not the way the world turns. Do your best to protect yourself - even something like choice of clothing. It sucks, but it is what it is. If you choose to make different choices, understand you will stand out and someone will notice it. That might end up to be a very good thing. It might not.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 9:58:38 GMT -5
We are entitled to be safe...to not be accosted, bullied, etc - regardless of the choices we make. Unfortunately, that's not the way the world turns. Do your best to protect yourself - even something like choice of clothing. It sucks, but it is what it is. If you choose to make different choices, understand you will stand out and someone will notice it. That might end up to be a very good thing. It might not.
My point exactly! Thanks! ;D
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:02:11 GMT -5
Shame on people who try to force their kids to be someone they aren't so that society will like them more.
I don't plan on forcing my kid to be someone she isn't. But like I said I see a difference between being who you are and making yourself into a target.
It's a fine line and at some point she'll cross it and have to learn her lesson, but that doesn't mean I have to encourage it to happen.
Like I said with the goth kids if you want to dress that way fine, but then don't get pissed off at the judgements you recieve.
If Gwen wants to dress that way, fine but she's going to have to take the lumps.
That does not mean however I need to let her run around in white face paint. Some things just make you look like an idiot and I don't care how much it 'expresses" your inner being, you aren't doing it while living in my house.
And she has to accept that sometimes you need to learn you can't express yourself. Unless you want to work at Hot Topic your entire life you willl eventually have to put away the goth gear and dress like everyone else.
It's my job as an adult and her parent to teach her the differences. It isn't forcing her ot be someone she is not in order to make her more liked, it's teaching her how the world works.
If she wants to ignore me then she'll learn the hard way that all she'd get is a job at Hot Topic and maybe Homer's if she is lucky.
If that makes her happy bully for her. However it doesn't mean I have to actively support and encourage her to take this route by bringing home some mime make-up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:05:28 GMT -5
MJ s DQ. ;D
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:06:18 GMT -5
I hope for both your sakes that he stays this way. However, all it takes is one bad friend to influence him to go bad. I did not let my kids choose their own friends that I knew were bad influences. This is where my parenting skills came into play.
Shame on us? How so? I am the parent. My child is just that. A child. I help my child make the correct decisions. If my decisions go against what he/she wants? Then too bad! I am older and should know better than any child.
As far as punishing a boy that wears pink. Where does that come from? No one has said that, that I'm aware of. We are saying that bullies do that. Bullies are real. They don't even need any reason to be an a$$hole. But why give them ammunition?
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:08:08 GMT -5
Shame on people who try to force their kids to be someone they aren't so that society will like them more.I don't plan on forcing my kid to be someone she isn't. But like I said I see a difference between being who you are and making yourself into a target. It's a fine line and at some point she'll cross it and have to learn her lesson, but that doesn't mean I have to encourage it to happen. Like I said with the goth kids if you want to dress that way fine, but then don't get pissed off at the judgements you recieve. If Gwen wants to dress that way, fine but she's going to have to take the lumps. That does not mean however I need to let her run around in white face paint. Some things just make you look like an idiot and I don't care how much it 'expresses" your inner being, you aren't doing it while living in my house. And she has to accept that sometimes you need to learn you can't express yourself. Unless you want to work at Hot Topic your entire life you willl eventually have to put away the goth gear and dress like everyone else. It's my job as an adult and her parent to teach her the differences. It isn't forcing her ot be someone she is not in order to make her more liked, it's teaching her how the world works. If she wants to ignore me then she'll learn the hard way that all she'd get is a job at Hot Topic and maybe Homer's if she is lucky. If that makes her happy bully for her. However it doesn't mean I have to actively support and encourage her to take this route by bringing home some mime make-up. Bingo!!! ;D
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 10:09:15 GMT -5
Except we can't do any of that. I can't go to school and start "disciplining" or even teaching all those "little monsters". Heck, I probably can't even "talk" to them bc now days all the kid has to do is scream "abuse" and my life will go to hell in a minute. All I can do is protect my kid and I will as much as I can. I don't care if some think I am overprotective, I don't care if some think I am not teaching him blah blah blah. I think at 6 he might be too young to fully understand certain consequences so no, I am not going to sit there and make statements like FB suggested bc if he listens and wears pink girl's stuff to school and than gets beat up - I will care very little about the fact that I tried "teaching him" something or "giving him a choice", yada yada yada.
I have no intention of sending my kid to school, realizing full well that there is a good chance he can get teased, beat up, etc.
Might it happen anyway? Sure. But why would I do that knowingly???
Lena
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:10:44 GMT -5
Except we can't do any of that. I can't go to school and start "disciplining" or even teaching all those "little monsters". Heck, I probably can't even "talk" to them bc now days all the kid has to do is scream "abuse" and my life will go to hell in a minute. All I can do is protect my kid and I will as much as I can. I don't care if some think I am overprotective, I don't care if some think I am not teaching him blah blah blah. I think at 6 he might be too young to fully understand certain consequences so no, I am not going to sit there and make statements like FB suggested bc if he listens and wears pink girl's stuff to school and than gets beat up - I will care very little about the fact that I tried "teaching him" something or "giving him a choice", yada yada yada. I have no intention of sending my kid to school, realizing full well that there is a good chance he can get teased, beat up, etc. Might it happen anyway? Sure. But why would I do that knowingly??? Lena
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:12:39 GMT -5
I have never been sick reading anything on this board until now. Some of the people on here have been the most offensive, ignoramuses I have the displeasure of hearing from. First of all, women do not get raped based on what they are wearing. The most commonly worn outfit of a rape victim is a hoodie and pants. Rape is not about sex, but about power. Anyone on here that disagrees has not looked at the statistic or is choosing to perpetuate a complete false stereotype. Either way it is disgusting. Secondly, in most school, if parents and teachers do their jobs, wearing a pink shirt or making out with your boyfriend in hall, will not get you bullied. It is the responsibility of the adults to do their job. Their might be a little teasing but not bullying. Third, those whose parents have supported them and are therefore confident in themselves have less issues with others (bullying, physical attack, lack of friends) than those who are trying to hide who they are from everyone, including themselves, because they have been taught it is not ok. Fourth, TLoony, being gay is normal, your attitude is one that is not and you are lucky you do not own your store anywhere around my area because no one would shop their in response to your attitude or behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:13:54 GMT -5
Except we can't do any of that. I can't go to school and start "disciplining" or even teaching all those "little monsters". Heck, I probably can't even "talk" to them bc now days all the kid has to do is scream "abuse" and my life will go to hell in a minute. All I can do is protect my kid and I will as much as I can. I don't care if some think I am overprotective, I don't care if some think I am not teaching him blah blah blah. I think at 6 he might be too young to fully understand certain consequences so no, I am not going to sit there and make statements like FB suggested bc if he listens and wears pink girl's stuff to school and than gets beat up - I will care very little about the fact that I tried "teaching him" something or "giving him a choice", yada yada yada. I have no intention of sending my kid to school, realizing full well that there is a good chance he can get teased, beat up, etc. Might it happen anyway? Sure. But why would I do that knowingly??? Lena At my school you could do it. But that would require parents to stand up and be parents and stop allowing stupid rules like no child left behind or zero tolerance.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 10:15:06 GMT -5
I SERIOUSLY doubt that a 6 yr old 1) "knows who he is" and 2) has any clue about society and who its likes. But at almost 40, I DO know that allowing a 6 yr old certain things will very likely cause him pain, so yep, shame on me for trying to protect him
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:16:20 GMT -5
Except we can't do any of that. I can't go to school and start "disciplining" or even teaching all those "little monsters". Heck, I probably can't even "talk" to them bc now days all the kid has to do is scream "abuse" and my life will go to hell in a minute. All I can do is protect my kid and I will as much as I can. I don't care if some think I am overprotective, I don't care if some think I am not teaching him blah blah blah. I think at 6 he might be too young to fully understand certain consequences so no, I am not going to sit there and make statements like FB suggested bc if he listens and wears pink girl's stuff to school and than gets beat up - I will care very little about the fact that I tried "teaching him" something or "giving him a choice", yada yada yada. I have no intention of sending my kid to school, realizing full well that there is a good chance he can get teased, beat up, etc. Might it happen anyway? Sure. But why would I do that knowingly??? Lena At my school you could do it. But that would require parents to stand up and be parents and stop allowing stupid rules like no child left behind or zero tolerance. what does NCLB have anything to do with teasing/bullying?
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