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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:16:25 GMT -5
I have never been sick reading anything on this board until now. Some of the people on here have been the most offensive, ignoramuses I have the displeasure of hearing from. First of all, women do not get raped based on what they are wearing. The most commonly worn outfit of a rape victim is a hoodie and pants. Rape is not about sex, but about power. Anyone on here that disagrees has not looked at the statistic or is choosing to perpetuate a complete false stereotype. Either way it is disgusting. Secondly, in most school, if parents and teachers do their jobs, wearing a pink shirt or making out with your boyfriend in hall, will not get you bullied. It is the responsibility of the adults to do their job. Their might be a little teasing but not bullying. Third, those whose parents have supported them and are therefore confident in themselves have less issues with others (bullying, physical attack, lack of friends) than those who are trying to hide who they are from everyone, including themselves, because they have been taught it is not ok.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:18:33 GMT -5
I SERIOUSLY doubt that a 6 yr old 1) "knows who he is" and 2) has any clue about society and who its likes. But at almost 40, I DO know that allowing a 6 yr old certain things will very likely cause him pain, so yep, shame on me for trying to protect him Lena I know, right? You should be putting him in a yellow polka dot bikini, Doc Martens, and and eyepatch! Stop holding him back!!!!!
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 12, 2012 10:18:48 GMT -5
I have never been sick reading anything on this board until now. Some of the people on here have been the most offensive, ignoramuses I have the displeasure of hearing from. First of all, women do not get raped based on what they are wearing. The most commonly worn outfit of a rape victim is a hoodie and pants. Rape is not about sex, but about power. Anyone on here that disagrees has not looked at the statistic or is choosing to perpetuate a complete false stereotype. Either way it is disgusting. Seriously.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 10:19:29 GMT -5
All this talk about "adults doing their jobs" - sounds wonderful, except THEY DON'T!! And I don't know about "most" schools, but I must be dreaming when I read all those school cases about kids being bullied and how serious this problem has become and how many suicides it caused, etc etc etc. Sometimes I wonder if I am living on a different planet than some of you. Lena
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:19:42 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:20:02 GMT -5
NONE of us said that short skirts cause rape so I don't know where you are getting that from.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:20:05 GMT -5
Third, those whose parents have supported them and are therefore confident in themselves have less issues with others (bullying, physical attack, lack of friends) than those who are trying to hide who they are from everyone, including themselves, because they have been taught it is not ok Whatever. I've always been the shortest kid in the class. It isn't like I can do anything about it and my parents never made me feel ashamed of it, but darn if I didn't get teased for it all the time. I still get teased/mocked for it as an adult, though it is fewer and far between nowadays. I can't do anything about being short, so I've grown a thick skin. That doesn't mean however I needed to also dye my hair puple, wear white face paint and pierce every visible inch of my body. Should people ignore me and talk about what a wonderful person I am, sure. Is it going to happen, hell no! If I wanted to do all those things then I have to be ready for the negative reactions that come with it. I've made myself even more of a target with my actions. Things like hair color and clothing can be changed. I can't change being short. Why heap more fuel onto the fire if I don't want to just so I can run a social experiment? That's what I am going to teach my kid. If that makes me a horrible person then so be it. If she wants to draw attention to herself I am not going to stop her, but I am not going to pretend that the entire world is going to embrace her choices. And as long as she lives in my house and is under my charge then damn skippy I am going to put my foot down when I feel that the consequences are far more serious than being right and "expressing herself".
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:20:47 GMT -5
All this talk about "adults doing their jobs" - sounds wonderful, except THEY DON'T!! And I don't know about "most" schools, but I must be dreaming when I read all those school cases about kids being bullied and how serious this problem has become and how many suicides it caused, etc etc etc. Sometimes I wonder if I am living on a different planet than some of you. Lena I feel the same.......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:21:29 GMT -5
All this talk about "adults doing their jobs" - sounds wonderful, except THEY DON'T!! And I don't know about "most" schools, but I must be dreaming when I read all those school cases about kids being bullied and how serious this problem has become and how many suicides it caused, etc etc etc. Sometimes I wonder if I am living on a different planet than some of you. Lena I currently live in Reality Land, but it's getting to be a downer. <<checks to see if Should Land has any available housing>>
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:22:24 GMT -5
Ditto cranberry and Lena. I had no idea what made me a horrible parent was putting my foot down if I think something my kid is doing will get her mercilessly harassed rather than allowing her to "embrace herself". Oh well, that'll be another thing she can discuss in therapy when she gets older.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:23:08 GMT -5
I think this is relevant to your post, Lena. I believe that if kids know they can come to their parents about ANYTHING, they would be less likely to think that suicide is the only option.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 12, 2012 10:25:47 GMT -5
There were quite a few "short skirts don't cause rape BUT" -s, though. There is no room for a "but" in that sentence. Short skirts don't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Period.
Pink shirts, being short, picking your nose, etc. don't cause bullying. Bullies cause bullying. Period.
Any "buts" are just veiled justifications and blame-shifting.
I do agree with the overall premise that you should try to protect your kid from the world, even at the risk of interfering with their self-expression - at least when they're too young to fully realize the consequences of their decisions.
However, I would NEVER say, "Those kids were mean to you and that's bad, but that's kind of what you should expect for wearing a pink shirt." Which is the attitude that is coming across in some posts.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:25:51 GMT -5
Ditto cranberry and Lena. I had no idea what made me a horrible parent was putting my foot down if I think something my kid is doing will get her mercilessly harassed rather than allowing her to "embrace herself". Oh well, that'll be another thing she can discuss in therapy when she gets older. Well, hon, I raised five kids. None have ever gotten into any trouble with the law. None are drug addicts. All of them have more money than I ever have, or will ever have. They chose great careers.. They are all doing great and have provided me with eight wonderful grandkids. So, maybe my kids can join yours in therapy?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 10:25:55 GMT -5
I agree - and I am not against breaking societal norms - not at all. However, are we sure this little boy knows that wearing pink clothes from the girl section is against societal norms? I would let my kid wear pink - but I would make sure the kid knows that others may not like it, and he has to deal with that in an appropriate manner. I don't want his first clue that wearing clothing from the girls department is wrong to be when Buford starts punching him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:27:07 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:30:49 GMT -5
There were quite a few "short skirts don't cause rape BUT" -s, though. There is no room for a "but" in that sentence. Short skirts don't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Period. Pink shirts, being short, picking your nose, etc. don't cause bullying. Bullies cause bullying. Period. Any "buts" are just veiled justifications and blame-shifting. I do agree with the overall premise that you should try to protect your kid from the world, even at the risk of interfering with their self-expression - at least when they're too young to fully realize the consequences of their decisions. However, I would NEVER say, "Those kids were mean to you and that's bad, but that's kind of what you should expect for wearing a pink shirt." Which is the attitude that is coming across in some posts. I would NEVER tell ANYONE "that's what you get for doing/wearing/saying XYZ". What I WOULD do is (as others have said) make sure they know that some things are considered out of the ordinary and if they want to do those things, they may not like the responses they get. Is it right? Not really. Should the world work this way? Probably not. But I don't live in Should and Probably - I live in reality, and I would be doing a disservice to my child(ren) if I painted a picture of a wholy tolerant and nice world when I knew that it wasn't true.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:31:32 GMT -5
However, I would NEVER say, "Those kids were mean to you and that's bad, but that's kind of what you get for wearing a pink shirt." Which is the attitude that is coming across in some posts.
Bullying is never okay, I don't think it si right to whollop on another person because he wore a pink shirt or she dressed goth.
But at the same time certain things are going to get you a negative reaction and unfortunately there are people out there who take it to the extreme.
It's my job to make sure my kid is aware that all the choices she makes in life are not going to be embraced by everyone, not every choice is going to get accepted and she won't be congratulated on expressing herself.
If I ever caught Gwen wearing some of the clothes I see for teens today, I would stop her and tell her she looks like trash.
I'd also explain to her the reaction she's going to get dressing like that from certain people and how some people will take those reactions to extremes.
In a perfect world she should be able to dress like she's headed off to her shift at the strip club and dress like any place, any time but the world doesn't work that way.
Do you deserve to be treated that way, of course not!
But like Thyme I don't want my kid to learn what dressing like trash signals to some people the hard way. It isn't worth being "right" and allowing her to be "free to be you and me".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 12, 2012 10:32:37 GMT -5
But, if a week later your son got up and put on the same pink shirt would you say "Are you sure you want to do that?"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 12, 2012 10:34:13 GMT -5
Maybe we're talking about different situations.
You guys are saying that you'd let your kid know they're likely to get some bad feedback on certain outfits/choices. I agree, and I'd do the same.
But what happens if the kid says - OK, I know they might make fun of me for wearing a pink shirt, but I don't care. I like it. And he comes home from school crying because someone called him the F word. What do you say/do then?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 10:36:03 GMT -5
I don't know if you are referring to my post or not, but when I was referring to clothing that provides easy access - I was not only referring to skirts. As you know, sweats can easily be pulled down and hoodies can easily be pulled up. Easy access does not always equate to "provocative". I do have a bit of expertise in this matter so I know what I'm talking about here.
Everyone does (or should know) that rape, while classifed as a sex crime, is a crime of violence. Sex isn't the motivation. Control is the motivation. When a rapist is intent on finding a victim, he WILL find a victim. I was simply stating there are ways to make yourself unattractive as a victim. Now a person can be offended by that, if they want, but it's the truth and it's the reality. BUT...even if you do everything you can to protect yourself, IT IS STILL NOT YOUR FAULT IF YOU GET RAPED. Believe me, I believe that more than anything I believe in.
As to the other subject, if a bully is looking for a victim, he/she WILL find a victim. There are things you can do to decrease your risk there, too. I think that's all the parents are saying here. They don't want to allow their child to run around with a "bully me" sticker on their foreheads.
And everyone said there is no fault on the part of the victim regardless of how she/he dresses. At least I certainly did. I'm simply saying, in the vein of this thread, that if you wish to lower your chances of being bullied, raped, etc., there are things you can do to decrease that risk.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:38:15 GMT -5
OK, I know they might make fun of me for wearing a pink shirt, but I don't care. I like it. And he comes home from school crying because someone called him the F word. What do you say/do then?
Well after I stopped seeing red and wanting to punch whoever called my kid that, I'd sit him down and explain as best I could about societal norms.
Then I'd explain that while it is NEVER acceptable to behave that way towards something you disagree with unfortunately not all people are taught that and even if they are, they don't listen.
So you have to be prepared for the assholes in the world to call you out. Assholes always find something.
It's up to you if you want to continue wearing your pink shirt or not now that you know how this kid is going to react. If you want to wear the shirt then you are going to have to learn to stand up to the bully and ignore what he says.
If you DON'T want to continue wearing the shirt there is nothing wrong with that either. You have the right to feel comfortable in your own skin.
Just be aware that the bully might not stop even if you stop wearing the pink shirt, he might find something else to tease you about, something you can't control (for my kid it'd probably be height).
So no matter what you do you are going to have to learn to stand up for yourself.
It's your decision how much you want to change to conform vs not. I'll support you and be here either way.
Damn I need to write that down because I'll probabyl forget by the time we reach this stage with Gwen. ;D
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 10:39:13 GMT -5
I am not disputing that what-so-ever.
And for the record, I am very big on giving my 4yr old choices. All the time. However, it is my job to make sure that none of those choices can potentially cause him harm.
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:39:58 GMT -5
Maybe we're talking about different situations. You guys are saying that you'd let your kid know they're likely to get some bad feedback on certain outfits/choices. I agree, and I'd do the same. But what happens if the kid says - OK, I know they might make fun of me for wearing a pink shirt, but I don't care. I like it. And he comes home from school crying because someone called him the F word. What do you say/do then? At some point, doesn't every kid come home crying because they were picked on at school? This scenario seems like more of a "when your kid comes home..." rather than an "if your kid comes home..." to me. Something all parents need to be prepared for.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 12, 2012 10:41:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Drama. I do think we mostly agree here.
I'd try to give a similar speech - but if the kid decided to wear his pink shirt to school the next week (assuming he was old enough to fully grasp the consequences - I'm thinking at least preteen) I doubt I'd say anything.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 10:41:32 GMT -5
When you tell your child they can't dress or look the way they want you are telling them they aren't good enough for you. That may not be your intention but that's the message the kid is hearing. You tell Gwen she can't wear goth make up you are giving her the impression that you think she's a freak for even wanting to in the first place.
That's the great thing about America- we were all free to raise our kids however we want. I am just choosing to treat my kid with respect and let him find out who he is. When my kid was 5 he wanted to wear a super hero cape everywhere he went. Did I let him, damn right I did. Did some kids try to tease him? Sure. Did he care? Not one bit.
When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him.
Maybe I live in make believe land. Here there is a strictly enforced zero tolerance policy on bullying and harassment. The parents are instructed to call the principal or school counselor if there is even the hint that someone is being bullied. They have bounced kids out of school for bullying. They don't disclose all of the information because of privacy rules but they will send out a notice to the parents and to the kids every time someone is expelled for bullying. Notice will read something to the effect of : There was an incident at school this week that required disciplinary action. Please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy regarding bullying. The first offense is an automatic 3 day suspension. Bullying includes, but is not limited to the following ....."
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Post by Opti on Jul 12, 2012 10:41:45 GMT -5
I agree. What I don't agree with is blaming her clothing choice. Notice, I wasn't blaming her clothing choice --per se, I was blaming her for choosing to wear the short skirt in a gang related neighborhood. Why? Why put yourself out there to be a target? Being right is not that important. At least not to me. I would rather be alive, well, and not raped if at all possible. Truthfully I think being a single female in the wrong place is far more of a danger than any clothing she might be wearing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:43:32 GMT -5
Notice, I wasn't blaming her clothing choice --per se, I was blaming her for choosing to wear the short skirt in a gang related neighborhood. Why? Why put yourself out there to be a target? Being right is not that important. At least not to me. I would rather be alive, well, and not raped if at all possible. Truthfully I think being a single female in the wrong place is far more of a danger than any clothing she might be wearing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 10:44:06 GMT -5
All this talk about "adults doing their jobs" - sounds wonderful, except THEY DON'T!! And I don't know about "most" schools, but I must be dreaming when I read all those school cases about kids being bullied and how serious this problem has become and how many suicides it caused, etc etc etc. Sometimes I wonder if I am living on a different planet than some of you. Lena Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean about bullying and the possibility of deadly consequences. Unfortunately, I also know that you can't count on adults (teachers, administrators or other parents) to put a stop to it. My 12 year old son was bullied, jumped in the school bathroom by 3 boys at once, and generally tortured until he thought the only way to stop it was to kill himself. Guess what...... when I started raising hell with the school and the school board, one of teachers admitted that she knew he was being tortured. "Tortured" was her exact word. WTF?! After he was beat up, another teacher sent him back to class even though he was hurt and crying. The school didn't deal with it until I found out that afternoon when I picked him up from school and I marched my narrow ass in there demanding answers. My son's crime was that he was very small for his age and not a *roughneck* like many of his classmates, so he was easy pickings. It took therapy, me fighting with his school and a series of growth spurts for the bullying to stop and for my son to feel better about himself. Having lived through that, and knowing it didn't happen because of any choice he made, I still wouldn't let my young kid make decisions that would make him or her a target for bullying. I'd let my teenage boy wear pink shirts if he wanted to (I don't think pink on men necessarily looks feminine), but I wouldn't let my young boy wear his sister's hand-me-down pink clothing.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 10:47:53 GMT -5
I am so sorry your son went thru that Pink. I got teased and people were really mean about me being short, especially in middle school but I never experience something that horrible.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 10:48:46 GMT -5
When you tell your child they can't dress or look the way they want you are telling them they aren't good enough for you. That may not be your intention but that's the message the kid is hearing. You tell Gwen she can't wear goth make up you are giving her the impression that you think she's a freak for even wanting to in the first place. That's the great thing about America- we were all free to raise our kids however we want. I am just choosing to treat my kid with respect and let him find out who he is. When my kid was 5 he wanted to wear a super hero cape everywhere he went. Did I let him, damn right I did. Did some kids try to tease him? Sure. Did he care? Not one bit. When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him. Maybe I live in make believe land. Here there is a strictly enforced zero tolerance policy on bullying and harassment. The parents are instructed to call the principal or school counselor if there is even the hint that someone is being bullied. They have bounced kids out of school for bullying. They don't disclose all of the information because of privacy rules but they will send out a notice to the parents and to the kids every time someone is expelled for bullying. Notice will read something to the effect of : There was an incident at school this week that required disciplinary action. Please remember that we have a zero tolerance policy regarding bullying. The first offense is an automatic 3 day suspension. Bullying includes, but is not limited to the following ....." Sorry, but this is total BS.
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