Are we entitled to good treatment?

[thyme4change]

Personally, I can't believe it is 2012 and the genders are still categorized by colors. I really hate children are still being pigeon held by tradition.

So, there are two schools of thought:

1) "It is what it is..." Society is going to think what society thinks and you have to deal with it.
2) "Fight to change it." There have been people in history that have stood up for what they believed, and changed the world into a different place.

Honestly, both are true, and you have every right to rage against the machine and make pink a nuetral color (BTW - Pink was the color of boys 150 years ago - it was considered royal. Girls wore blue. It wasn't until the Navy started wearing blue that it became fashionable to put boys in blue and girls in pink.)

The thing about having kids though, is that it isn't you fighting society anymore. It is your kid, fighting another kid. As a parent, you can help them to understand that if they choose to go against the grain - whatever that is - they will have to deal with a jerk. But, if you as a parent say "I hate that pink is a girl color - so screw everyone" and buy your boy only pink clothes, then you have made a choice for your child and they have to deal with the consequences. My kids deal with the consequences of my decisions all the time (I'm a working mom, or we have a small house, or I pissed a parent off and now the kids don't hang out together - or whatever.) But there are things that my kids have to make their own decisions on and I have to inform them of how the general population will feel about it, and look out for problems. You can't just leave your kid out there to dry because your values are in conflict with the current norm.

It sounds like these parents encouraged this child to wear clothing from the girls department and when there was a problem, they transferred the child away from the problem. When will this kid learn that people will always judge him for wearing women's clothing, and he can't escape it by changing schools.

[movingforward]

thyme - you make some very good points. Also, interesting fact about the pink being the color of boys 150 yrs ago. I had no idea...

[thyme4change]

Actually, I got the dates wrong - it was like WW I and WW II where fashion started to change - so not even 100 years ago!

[Angel!]

Jul 11, 2012 17:59:41 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Actually, I got the dates wrong - it was like WW I and WW II where fashion started to change - so not even 100 years ago!

Interesting. I will have to tell my boss because we had a conversation a while back about why pink=girls & blue = boys. No one had any idea the reason.

It makes sense that pink isn't inherently a girls colors. But, I was raised in an age/environment where it was a girls color, so I am pretty wired to see pink & think "girl".

Personally I kind of dislike the color & when Ex suggested her room be pink I said no way & with very few exceptions none of her clothes are pink.

So why guys would want to dress in a color that I find ugly & is generally considered feminine is beyond me, & while I will think "weird" I won't say anything or treat them different.

[thyme4change]

while I will think "weird" I won't say anything or treat them different.

And there is the rub. Even though it doesn't make sense - you still think it. Our society still thinks it. So, Firebird, in her sweet well meaning manner, is here saying "It is a t-shirt - it isn't inherently girly..." is doing a disservice to this child. It might not be right, or make any sense - but the reality is that the perception is out there. And by not acknowledging the perception - a move to try and make the child feel he isn't doing anything wrong (which he isn't) he is actually getting hurt. He doesn't know that a huge portion of his peers look at him and see something weird - because no one that cares about him has the heart to tell him.

When our kids do something that we think might be out of the norm we say "Treasured child, you are doing something that some people will find weird. I don't have a problem with it, and you can do it - but people out there might. Kids at school might. So, you can do it, but just be aware that some people might see it differently." This has rarely stopped our kids from doing something, but I can see them actually think it through. At least they have been warned. As a mother, shouldn't I protect them - at least just a little - while still giving them the room to make their own mistakes?

[Peace Of Mind]

Remember Tbird's post about her daughter getting treated poorly by a relative and not even noticing it? It bugged Tbird but not her daughter. Why make a child self conscious if nothing is happening to them? What people think or what you think they think is moot. So I would remain mute unless the child is getting picked on.

[Firebird]

But, if you as a parent say "I hate that pink is a girl color - so screw everyone" and buy your boy only pink clothes, then you have made a choice for your child and they have to deal with the consequences.

I would never do that, Thyme. And the mother I mentioned didn't do it either. Yes, they encouraged free expression but they never TOLD their son to wear pink. He just liked pink, right from the start. So they let him wear it, which is what I would have done.

I would never "force" my kid to do something society did not approve of, but I would support it if it was what THEY wanted. There's a big difference.

[Angel!]

Jul 11, 2012 18:15:53 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

while I will think "weird" I won't say anything or treat them different.

And there is the rub. Even though it doesn't make sense - you still think it.

Everyone judges. While not everyone might think a pink shirt on a boy is weird I cannot believe that anyone doesn't look at certain outfits or hairstyles & just think "weird" or "wtf".

IMO, it isn't about internal judging because we can't help it, it is human nature. But, it is about how we act towards a person when judging them. There is no reason I can't think "WTF would anyone wear that dress" without being perfectly polite to a woman.

[Firebird]

Our society still thinks it. So, Firebird, in her sweet well meaning manner, is here saying "It is a t-shirt - it isn't inherently girly..." is doing a disservice to this child.

No, I wouldn't do that either (you're making a lot of assumptions about what I would do based on the fact that I'm thinking about this beforehand, which I find kind of interesting).

If I had a son and he wanted to wear pink to school, I would likely say something like (tweaking it slightly depending on his age), "It's fine with me if you want to wear pink to school, but in general people do consider that a girl color. There isn't anything wrong with a boy wearing pink, but some of your classmates might find it a little strange, and not understand why you're wearing that shirt. So you might get teased, and it's up to you whether or not you want to deal with that."

[susanb]

Jul 11, 2012 18:38:33 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Remember Tbird's post about her daughter getting treated poorly by a relative and not even noticing it? It bugged Tbird but not her daughter. Why make a child self conscience if nothing is happening to them? What people think or what you think they think is moot. So I would remain mute unless the child is getting picked on.

Exactly! I loved to wear clashing print patterns as a kid. My mom let me. I was a popular kid and didn't get picked on at all (until junior high).

In junior high I went through an ugly phase and tried really hard to please everyone. I bought all the right brands (BUM and ENUF anyone?) and was not well liked.

Then in high school, I said f it. I quit trying to hang out with the popular girls in schoo. I did exactly what I wanted. I wore funky clothes, got a pixie cut and became popular all over again. People who need approval never seem to get it as much as those who don't need it.

[Firebird]

Then in high school, I said f it. I quit trying to hang out with the popular girls in schoo. I did exactly what I wanted. I wore funky clothes, got a pixie cut and became popular all over again. People who need approval never seem to get it as much as those who don't need it.



My niece wears some pretty weird outfits to school. I think she was getting bullied in her last school though I'm not sure if it had to do with her clothes or not. But she's a great kid and I always thought it was cool that she liked to wear those wacky combinations and didn't seem to care much what her peers thought.

[Cookies Galore]

Jul 11, 2012 18:47:50 GMT -5 Firebird said:

If I had a son and he wanted to wear pink to school, I would likely say something like (tweaking it slightly depending on his age), "It's fine with me if you want to wear pink to school, but in general people do consider that a girl color. There isn't anything wrong with a boy wearing pink, but some of your classmates might find it a little strange, and not understand why you're wearing that shirt. So you might get teased, and it's up to you whether or not you want to deal with that."

"Okay" would be a much simpler response.

[midjd]

It is really hard to judge the sex of a baby or even toddlers sometimes. That is why pink & blue clothing for infants are so traditional. It sucks when someone makes a comment about your cute baby boy & it is your DD or vice versa.

This is what I've heard (I didn't have much hair til I was 2 and my mom suffered much consternation about people who thought I was a boy) but I don't understand why. I fully realize that my attitude on this may change after I have kids, but I don't feel I'd be offended. Then again, I have zero preference on boy vs. girl as far as what we have. And I vividly remember holding the belief that when you were a grown-up you got to choose your gender... I was very disappointed to find out I wouldn't be able to be a boy at some point. So my attitude is probably atypical.

I call most babies "it" til their 2nd or 3rd birthday anyway. Gotta break that habit before DN3 comes along

What people think or what you think they think is moot. So I would remain mute unless the child is getting picked on.

You get karma for the correct use/spelling of both moot and mute. My heart is full of joy now.

[Cookies Galore]

Jul 11, 2012 16:48:12 GMT -5 movingforward said:

Personally, I can't believe it is 2012 and the genders are still categorized by colors. I really hate children are still being pigeon held by tradition. I have dated men who wear pink. It doesn't bother me or think they are any less manly

DF has a button down shirt with pink in it. It's my favorite shirt of his!

[Peace Of Mind]

Jul 11, 2012 19:19:23 GMT -5 midjd said:

It is really hard to judge the sex of a baby or even toddlers sometimes. That is why pink & blue clothing for infants are so traditional. It sucks when someone makes a comment about your cute baby boy & it is your DD or vice versa.

This is what I've heard (I didn't have much hair til I was 2 and my mom suffered much consternation about people who thought I was a boy) but I don't understand why. I fully realize that my attitude on this may change after I have kids, but I don't feel I'd be offended. Then again, I have zero preference on boy vs. girl as far as what we have. And I vividly remember holding the belief that when you were a grown-up you got to choose your gender... I was very disappointed to find out I wouldn't be able to be a boy at some point. So my attitude is probably atypical.

I call most babies "it" til their 2nd or 3rd birthday anyway. Gotta break that habit before DN3 comes along

What people think or what you think they think is moot. So I would remain mute unless the child is getting picked on.

You get karma for the correct use/spelling of both moot and mute. My heart is full of joy now.

LMAO!!! I only act dumb most of the time. I can also spell but my fingers can't.

[milee]

Jul 11, 2012 18:47:50 GMT -5 Firebird said:

If I had a son and he wanted to wear pink to school, I would likely say something like (tweaking it slightly depending on his age), "It's fine with me if you want to wear pink to school, but in general people do consider that a girl color. There isn't anything wrong with a boy wearing pink, but some of your classmates might find it a little strange, and not understand why you're wearing that shirt. So you might get teased, and it's up to you whether or not you want to deal with that."

I have a son that likes to wear pink and took a combination of approaches. When he was in preschool, Kindergarten and 1st grade, he was at schools that specifically taught tolerance and nobody there would have batted an eye at anything anyone else wore, so there was no need to discuss it. Last year, he started second grade at another school and I had a variation of the talk FB mentions in the above quote.

It was a rough year in some ways. He did get teased and was sometimes sad about it. For a while he stopped wearing some of his favorite clothes. Towards the end of the year, he got new confidence and started wearing some of his favorites again and even added some new um, eccentricities. No idea why he likes to wear crazy patterned, mismatched socks, but he does. He has friends and makes friends easily.

DH and I are pretty plain dressers, so I have no idea where this came from. We're vanilla boring accountant/engineering types.

He's an incredibly happy, kind and joyful kid, though. We're boring and dress that way. He's brimming with joy and dresses that way. It all works out.

[Firebird]

I have a son that likes to wear pink and took a combination of approaches. When he was in preschool, Kindergarten and 1st grade, he was at schools that specifically taught tolerance and nobody there would have batted an eye at anything anyone else wore, so there was no need to discuss it. Last year, he started second grade at another school and I had a variation of the talk FB mentions in the above quote.

It would probably also have something to do with my son's specific personality, which of course I have no way of knowing in advance. If he were more like my niece, tough-minded and generally pretty uncaring about what he "should" be wearing, I might not bother saying much - figuring that he would work out for himself other people thought he was strange and wouldn't care.

But if I had a particularly sensitive little boy, I'd likely say more because teasing would hurt him more than it would hurt someone like my niece. I'd probably say SOMETHING in either case, but I might emphasize the point a bit more with a sensitive child, knowing the potential consequences could be harsher.

I'm really glad your kiddo went back to wearing his strange clothes, milee

[milee]

He's weird, but he's a happy kind of weird.

[Firebird]

I'd take that

[susanb]

I would take happy weird also. Recently I went home to visit my parents. People that were conforming in school were still not doing very much I found interesting now. They went to college, got married and had kids. The end. There was a small group of us in school who did things a little differently. We all went to college and got married too. Some of us had kids, some didn't. All of us did things like move to foreign countries, start a band and get a record deal (not even a little famous, but still great), publish a novel, or start a business. None of us did all of those things, but we all did at least one. There is nothing wrong with choosing to have an ordinary life, but I think most of us want kids who have the bravery, confidence and skills to choose a not so ordinary life if that is what they want. It sounds like Milee's boy is well on his way, which is really great to hear about.

[thyme4change]

Yes, they encouraged free expression but they never TOLD their son to wear pink. He just liked pink, right from the start. So they let him wear it, which is what I would have done.

would likely say something like (tweaking it slightly depending on his age), "It's fine with me if you want to wear pink to school, but in general people do consider that a girl color. There isn't anything wrong with a boy wearing pink, but some of your classmates might find it a little strange, and not understand why you're wearing that shirt. So you might get teased, and it's up to you whether or not you want to deal with that."

So, there is a space between those two reactions. "Okay" vs. long explaination about societal norms. The second one is remarkably close to what I posted that I would do also (remember - you are the one who thinks we disagree - I think we are more the same than difference.)

My son is in head to toe orance today. Go Suns!

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2012 17:27:28 GMT -5 movingforward said:

We are all judgmental at times though. A few weeks ago I was eating in a restaurant and a couple with a boy about 5 yrs old walked in and the kid had one of those 1985 rat tales hanging down his back. I. TRIED. NOT. TO. JUDGE. I didn't succeed. I judged but kept it to myself...

I always find that fascinating... little boys with this haircut that has been out of style since long before they were born (possibly before their parents were born). When they're really young, you figure mom or dad was in charge of the clippers (surely no professional stylist was involved, right?) - but then you see the medium sized ones who seem old enough to say "cut this ridiculous thing off my head" but apparently didn't.


It's pretty hypocritical, but I am very judgmental of other people (though I try to keep that in my head), but very protective of the people I care about and their right to self expression.

[thyme4change]

the kid had one of those 1985 rat tales hanging down his back

HEY - that kid is bringing sexy back.

[whoisjohngalt]

So I've been thinking. If we behave in certain ways that are not approved of by mainstream society, do we forfeit our [perceived?] right to decent treatment, lack of judgment, whatever you want to call it? If we do certain things or indulge in certain lifestyles, should we simply expect people to be mean to us?

We should expect certain people to be mean to use bc certain people are simply mean or having a bad day or haven't gotten laid in awhile or.... you get the point. It always was, it always will be.

Most people who treat people with decency, get a decent treatment in return.

EVERYONE judges everyone else. I would argue that with anyone, even our dear lawyers, who would try to prove me otherwise. In MY opinion, there is nothing wrong with judging - you simply drawing a conclusion on facts as your perceive them. Now, if you start acting as an asshole based on those judgments - that's a different story.

Now, all of the above applies to adults. Kids are not mini-adults. They are kids, their brain functions differently, they process things differently, they lack certain abilities. That's why they are not allowed to make so many decisions UNTIL they are adults. So, if my 4 yr old would want to go to school in pink, I would say "no" bc giving the choice in this instance can lead to consequences he can't foresee yet.

Lena

[giramomma]

Sort of OT, but IMHO, nothing is worse than all judging that comes when you are a mother. Being teased/judged as a child is peanuts compared to 18-25 years (or more) of constant judgement that accompanies motherhood.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Paul said it best once on the old MSN that there is a difference between letting your kid be her own person and drawing a giant bullseye on her back. My job is to step in when my kid is turning herself into a target, especially when she is younger and not quite able to grasp the consequences of others.

I told a friend of mine that once. It is fine to embrace who you are but you don't have to deliberately make a spectacle out of yourself. When you do that you have to be prepared for the backlash from people who don't like the show you are putting on.

I would let my son wear pink, but it would be from the BOY's department. It is one thing to wear a boy's pink shirt. It is another to wear my daughter's hand me down pink sparkly tank top. One is letting him express himself, one is putting a giant bullseye on his back.

He wanted to wear pink sparkly tank tops as an adult I couldn't stop him, but if I am buying the clothes I am putting the breaks on it. If that makes me overly judgemental then so be it.

[cranberry49]

Wow! Some of these comments make my head spin! No wonder kids now days don't have a clue how to act, dress, or even think! Kids are not suppose to be allowed to 'express' themselves to the point that they make so many mistakes along the way and can inadvertently put their lives at risk!

It is YOUR responsibility as a parent to lead (GUIDE) your kids into making correct decisions!
Why would anyone encourage a boy to wear pink? Or allow him to do so? This is just fodder for the fire! You all know it. Freedom of expression? Give me a break! A child is not born with the knowledge of knowing what's wrong or right. What looks stupid or dumb. That is your job as a parent. I get so sick of seeing young kids with baggy pants showing their underpants. Stupid piercings and tattoos along with weird haircuts. If I ever met some of these scary looking kids in the dark I would run for my life! There is absolutely no difference in kids doing this (freedom of expression dont'cha know?) than any other scenario that can be mentioned.

That's the problem now days. So many think it's ok to express themselves by torturing others. Parents allow their kids to be put into a bullying situation which can lead to their harm, or worse, even death! Is it worth the consequences? Most parents have no gumption, or balls, anymore, it seems...

Come on parents!!!! Raise your children! Teach them morals and values! They are not an experiment for you to let run amok and 'see' what the end results will be!

Like that old song says "You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything!" No truer words have ever been spoken....

[cranberry49]

Glad to see that some parents understand the consequences of letting kids make some decisions that they have no business doing!

[thyme4change]

Kids are not suppose to be allowed to 'express' themselves to the point that they make so many mistakes along the way and can inadvertently put their lives at risk!

I dont' think a 6 year old wearing pink is actually a death-inducing activity. But, in general, I think I agree with your point.

[cranberry49]

Jul 11, 2012 22:23:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Kids are not suppose to be allowed to 'express' themselves to the point that they make so many mistakes along the way and can inadvertently put their lives at risk!

I dont' think a 6 year old wearing pink is actually a death-inducing activity. But, in general, I think I agree with your point.

Understood. But, there has to be a starting point. It starts when the child is old enough to understand the reasons behind a decision made. Even if the child does not agree with said decision. That's where parenting comes in....