saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Jul 11, 2012 16:41:48 GMT -5
I probably would have thought the boy wearing hot pink, purple, or neon yellow was strange years ago. Then my DD started HS. Trust me that it isn't unusual at all these days. I know - have you seen the colors in the Mens section at Macys? I was amazed at the colors - bright yellow, green, red skinny jeans. I haven't seen anyone wearing them yet, but it looks like people buy the stuff, since some of the colors were sold out.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:41:54 GMT -5
Personally I think it was their mistake in putting him in all the girly clothes. Had they never started dressing him in pink, then they wouldn't be running into this situation now where what he wants to wear doesn't match what society thinks he should wear.
This might be splitting hairs - but he's not wearing "girly clothes," he's wearing pink. Period. By contrast, I absolutely never wear pink if I can avoid it. I despise the color. Are we really at a point in society where pink is exclusively "girl" territory, to the point of saying that any pink item of clothing is by definition girly?
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 11, 2012 16:45:12 GMT -5
[quote author=shanendoah board=offtopic thread=24461 post=1136676 time=1342042713
We all judge. It is part of the human condition. So yes, everyone should expect to be judged for everything they do. Sometimes that judgement will be positive. Sometimes it will be negative. We can not control how other people judge us, only our reactions. For examply, I could totally read susanb's post and ask- how does my being fat hurt your feelings? Or are you saying that because my being fat goes against your values, than obviously, you are in the right, because you commenting on my being fat only hurts my feelings, and your values matter more than my feelings? I do NOT think this is what susanb meant. But it is a way I could react to it. I choose not to.
[/quote]
My values tell me that I should treat you with respect regardless of your weight. Even if your weight did hurt my feelings or offend my values (it doesn't), I believe that all people deserve a certain level of respect. If I fail to show you that respect, I belittle myself, not you. If I treated you badly because of your weight, it is my lack of character not your weight that leads to me treating you badly. Those are my values. Do my actions live up to those values? Not all the time, not by a long shot. In fact, one time this year I got angry and flipped someone off while driving, letting my emotions overwhelm my values. One time this month, I hit below the belt and said something mean to DH. Is it part of my lifelong work in progress to put values ahead of feelings and not be a jackass like I was in the two examples I just gave? Yes.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 16:45:53 GMT -5
Self-expression, at least for me. It is artistically adding something to my body that I find meaningful. Since most people never even realize I have tattoos, I certainly wouldn't consider it a cry for attention.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 11, 2012 16:48:12 GMT -5
Personally, I can't believe it is 2012 and the genders are still categorized by colors. I really hate children are still being pigeon held by tradition. I have dated men who wear pink. It doesn't bother me or think they are any less manly
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Jul 11, 2012 16:49:33 GMT -5
So you have been to my DD HS. ;D Most young people are actually much more accepting of this than adults. The adults judge. The kids couldn't care less most of the time. So true where I live too, but I live in the land of crazy dreams - so maybe it's different here.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 11, 2012 16:51:02 GMT -5
I suspect that he isn't just wearing pink, but he is wearing pink clothes from the girls department. I know they make pink shirts for men and boys - but I suspect this pink jacket is clearly for girls.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:51:01 GMT -5
Personally I think it was their mistake in putting him in all the girly clothes. Had they never started dressing him in pink, then they wouldn't be running into this situation now where what he wants to wear doesn't match what society thinks he should wear.This might be splitting hairs - but he's not wearing "girly clothes," he's wearing pink. Period. By contrast, I absolutely never wear pink if I can avoid it. I despise the color. Are we really at a point in society where pink is exclusively "girl" territory, to the point of saying that any pink item of clothing is by definition girly? Didn't she say he was wearing his sister's hand-me-downs? Maybe that is what she meant. My youngest brother wanted a baby doll for Christmas when he was 5 years old. Mom got him one. There is nothing "girly" about him AT ALL and he loves women! Actually he's a bit of a whore dog. I suspect he was doing things to that baby doll now that I think about it. I wanted GI Joes as a kid. I'm a girly girl in every way but personality. I've been accused of being dude like but I've also been called a Princess a few times too. I embrace both terms.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jul 11, 2012 16:52:43 GMT -5
susan: I guessed that is what you actually meant, but the other response did come to mind. And, that's NOT your fault. It's my fault. I don't think there's such a thing as a wrong feeling, but there is, as you mentioned, a wrong way to react to our feelings. You term policing your reactions as one of your values. It's not something I think of as a value so much as the one thing I have control of in the way I interact with the world.
I have seriously thought of getting a tatoo. I want an anklet of ivy with the names of my dogs who I've lost. It would be a permanent memorial to them that indicated how much a part of me they were. You may think that's bad taste, and that's fine. As I said, we all judge.
(And now I need to go take my afternoon walk, so if I don't comment again for a bit, it's because I'm not at my computer.)
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 16:53:26 GMT -5
[quote author=shanendoah board=offtopic thread=24461 post=1136676 time=1342042713 We all judge. It is part of the human condition. So yes, everyone should expect to be judged for everything they do. Sometimes that judgement will be positive. Sometimes it will be negative. We can not control how other people judge us, only our reactions. For examply, I could totally read susanb's post and ask- how does my being fat hurt your feelings? Or are you saying that because my being fat goes against your values, than obviously, you are in the right, because you commenting on my being fat only hurts my feelings, and your values matter more than my feelings? I do NOT think this is what susanb meant. But it is a way I could react to it. I choose not to. My values tell me that I should treat you with respect regardless of your weight. Even if your weight did hurt my feelings or offend my values (it doesn't), I believe that all people deserve a certain level of respect. If I fail to show you that respect, I belittle myself, not you. If I treated you badly because of your weight, it is my lack of character not your weight that leads to me treating you badly. Those are my values. Do my actions live up to those values? Not all the time, not by a long shot. In fact, one time this year I got angry and flipped someone off while driving, letting my emotions overwhelm my values. One time this month, I hit below the belt and said something mean to DH. Is it part of my lifelong work in progress to put values ahead of feelings and not be a jackass like I was in the two examples I just gave? Yes. [/quote] Exactly!!! That's how I see it too when I do something or somebody does something that is ugly I feel it says more about the person doing the behavior than it does the one being treated poorly.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:54:16 GMT -5
I think the important thing to teach our kids is that people are always going to judge you based on what you look like and how you present yourself. Some of the judging will be positive. Some will be negative. It is up to you to decide if going along with what society or living your life on your terms is more important. Going against society is VERY difficult, and there is nothing wrong if you decide not to buck the system. But if you want to live your life on your terms, regardless of whether or not I, as a parent, agree with your decisions, I will love you.
Nicely put, shanendoah. By the way, I have definitely been missing you on the airline thread. You articulate this issue so well. But of course, I understand why you wouldn't want to participate. Our loss.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 16:55:46 GMT -5
Personally I think it was their mistake in putting him in all the girly clothes. Had they never started dressing him in pink, then they wouldn't be running into this situation now where what he wants to wear doesn't match what society thinks he should wear.This might be splitting hairs - but he's not wearing "girly clothes," he's wearing pink. Period. By contrast, I absolutely never wear pink if I can avoid it. I despise the color. Are we really at a point in society where pink is exclusively "girl" territory, to the point of saying that any pink item of clothing is by definition girly? Depends on the shade of pink & item of clothing. I said girly because I am thinking of my daughters clothes, most of which are girly in a way beyond just the fabric color. Either the prints are girly - flowers, hearts, butterflies, or there are ruffles, puffy sleeves, etc. Most of my daughter wardrobe is clearly girly even almost none of it is on pink fabric simply because it has a different style that is girly IMO. Although I think pink automatically puts clothes on the girly side IMO. Doesn't mean they can't make guys clothes pink, but it harder to pull off & not have it seem girly. My DD wears some of DS's old clothes (less now that she is approaching 2) because many were fairly gender neutral, but I wouldn't dress a boy in 95% of her outfits. They are simply too girly for me to feel ok putting on a boy. Even her plain black shirt has an embroidered edge & puffed sleeves & is clearly a girl's shirt.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 16:56:32 GMT -5
Didn't she say he was wearing his sister's hand-me-downs? Maybe that is what she meant.
So? Pink jeans are pink jeans. Pink T-shirts are pink T-shirts. Nothing inherently girly about jeans or T-shirts, other than the color.
Personally, I can't believe it is 2012 and the genders are still categorized by colors. I really hate children are still being pigeon held by tradition. I have dated men who wear pink. It doesn't bother me or think they are any less manly
For this I must karmalize you.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 16:57:24 GMT -5
I suspect that he isn't just wearing pink, but he is wearing pink clothes from the girls department. I know they make pink shirts for men and boys - but I suspect this pink jacket is clearly for girls. This is what I was trying to say with my last post. There is a difference between boys/girls & mens/womens clothes beyond just the color.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 11, 2012 16:58:27 GMT -5
...:::"If we behave in certain ways that are not approved of by mainstream society, do we forfeit our [perceived?] right to decent treatment, lack of judgment, whatever you want to call it? If we do certain things or indulge in certain lifestyles, should we simply expect people to be mean to us?":::...
I believe that your second iteration is far closer than your first. I intend to teach my children that they are free to express themselves as they want. However, they have to understand that there are people in this world who for WHATEVER reason (closed mindedness, insecurity, self-loathing, fear of what they do not understand, jealousy...) WILL react negatively. I am by no means saying do not express yourself. I am simply saying COUNT on there being idiots who won't make it easy.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 11, 2012 17:00:11 GMT -5
About the OP... yeah, you should expect to get some comments - it's like the Micheal Bolton character in Office Space. Every new person he meets feels the need to point out/joke about his name - because you know he hasn't heard every joke a million times.
It's human nature - I suspect most people don't even know they are being rude/annoying when they point out the obvious especially when they meet/see someone/something for the very first time.
It's when they KEEP at it that it becomes annoying or hassassment.
On another note - why people get/like tattoos - well, it's kinda like Dark Chocolate - I think it's gross and horrible and I have no idea how people manage to choke it down - yet people consume it with looks of joy and pleasure on their faces. Just because I don't like the taste of Dark Chocolate doesn't mean that all Dark Chocolate production should stop and that no one should eat it. I can't control/dictate what other pepole should and shouldn't like - especailly when it's something that isn't really hurting anyone else. Now if I feel obligated to eat Dark Chocolate even though I don't like it, because it's socially acceptable or I'm peer pressured into it (don't be rude to host choke down that dark chocolate liquer cake slice - they made it specially for you! you'll hurt the hosts feelings!).. that's aproblem.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 17:00:20 GMT -5
Depends on the shade of pink & item of clothing. I said girly because I am thinking of my daughters clothes, most of which are girly in a way beyond just the fabric color. Either the prints are girly - flowers, hearts, butterflies, or their are ruffles, puffy sleeves, etc. Most of my daughter wardrobe is clearly girly even almost none of it is on pink fabric simply because it has a different style that is girly IMO.
Got it. The pink clothes he likes most (and is most often photographed by his mom wearing) are a pair of rain boots which, other than the color, aren't girly in the least, and a poofy jacket. I've seen both boys and girls wearing poofy jackets, so I don't see either of those items as especially girly.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 11, 2012 17:00:57 GMT -5
This is a true statement. It also includes using "proper" english, etc. etc. There is a reality that people will judge you. The sooner you can understand the situation and expectations of the people you are going to be spending the day with, the sooner you can master the social norms around them. It doesn't mean you have to follow every one of them, and give in to bullies. It just means that you have to know how people are thinking about you, and figure out if it is important or not.
For example - I dress as a professional. I know there is a large part of society that sees me as uptight, stuck up, maybe difficult. That is likely what they expect if they see me dressed in my work clothes. But, I care much more that the people I work with see me as professional, competent and appropriate. So, I've made my choice. Is it more likely that I would be mugged if I was walking down the street in a certain neighborhood - absolutely! But, I take the chance, because the loss from that mugging is likely the amount of assets in my purse (joke is on mugger) and the possiblity of it happening is remote (I don't walk in that neighborhood) but the gain from not dressing like a 'hood rat is so very, very high. So, I made my choice, and I live with the consequences - both good and bad.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 11, 2012 17:01:05 GMT -5
So? That's what she may have meant by the term "girly". I didn't say the clothes are girly. That her term used may have pertained to what she meant by that when she used that word.
Am I speaking Tloony again? I do love that language. ;D
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 11, 2012 17:01:47 GMT -5
I probably would have thought the boy wearing hot pink, purple, or neon yellow was strange years ago. Then my DD started HS. Trust me that it isn't unusual at all these days. I know - have you seen the colors in the Mens section at Macys? I was amazed at the colors - bright yellow, green, red skinny jeans. I haven't seen anyone wearing them yet, but it looks like people buy the stuff, since some of the colors were sold out. SaveinLA the boys really do wear hot pink skinny jeans to school! I swear some of the boys shop in the girls section too just to make sure that they are tight enough on them. And for the record I am talking about high school age boys one of whom is 6'2 and 200 lbs.
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savecents
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Post by savecents on Jul 11, 2012 17:02:40 GMT -5
Certain people are just more judgmental than others, and they will probably always find a reason to judge you. But a lot of people just don't care. I guess it depends on how much being judged bothers you personally. People who are rude enough to speak up with their negative judgement of you are a pretty small minority. Most people are too self centered to care about what it is you're doing, they're too busy with what they're doing, or if they do judge you they keep their mouths shut.
There's only a few instances that I can think of where a stranger's judgment would be something to be overly concerned about -- a job interview, for instance.
Bringing kids into it is a little harder, because you get one kid to pick on them and then others join in.... but I think most kids get picked on for something at some point. I think it would be pretty hard to shelter a kid from all teasing. And the color thing is becoming less of a big deal at least around here I think.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 17:04:21 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of the episode of The Office where Pam comments on the cute baby girl (that is like 4 months old), only told be told that it is a boy & pink is his favorite color.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 11, 2012 17:07:16 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of the episode of The Office where Pam comments on the cute baby girl (that is like 4 months old), only told be told that it is a boy & pink is his favorite color.
Dude, it starts so early these days! Remember my annoying houseguests from a few weeks ago? They had their little boy with them and aside from being ridiculously adorable, he had very long curly hair (especially for a one year old). I asked my friend if he got mistaken for a girl and she rolled her eyes and said "ALL THE TIME."
Now people are encouraging her to cut his gorgeous hair because "boys shouldn't have hair that long." Bullshit, I say.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 11, 2012 17:10:19 GMT -5
susan: I guessed that is what you actually meant, but the other response did come to mind. And, that's NOT your fault. It's my fault. I don't think there's such a thing as a wrong feeling, but there is, as you mentioned, a wrong way to react to our feelings. You term policing your reactions as one of your values. It's not something I think of as a value so much as the one thing I have control of in the way I interact with the world. I have seriously thought of getting a tatoo. I want an anklet of ivy with the names of my dogs who I've lost. It would be a permanent memorial to them that indicated how much a part of me they were. You may think that's bad taste, and that's fine. As I said, we all judge. (And now I need to go take my afternoon walk, so if I don't comment again for a bit, it's because I'm not at my computer.) Really interesting points. I appreciate the way you are challenging me to think. It is nice to have different views that are informative. In fact, it is the whole reason I want to participate in a community. One of the things your posts have made me think about is how me policing my reactions is relative and comes in my case from a place of privilege. People don't treat me badly very often. I am white, have classic features, good skin, teeth and health. I am not overweight. I am friendly and was fortunate enough to grow up in a family where I learned the manners and expectations of dominant culture. When I get bad service it is usually over the phone. Really, my values are not tested very much other than returning rudeness from a customer service rep with a polite response. Since the person who I am being polite to is someone who I likely have a lot of advantages over in practical terms like retirement benefits and healthcare it doesn't take much character to be nice. Not as much as it would if I were in a relatively weaker position. Again, thanks for spurring me to think more about this.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 17:12:30 GMT -5
Didn't she say he was wearing his sister's hand-me-downs? Maybe that is what she meant.So? Pink jeans are pink jeans. Pink T-shirts are pink T-shirts. Nothing inherently girly about jeans or T-shirts, other than the color. Maybe it is just me, but the more I think about it I think pink, especially bright pinks, are girly colors. I would likely think the boy you are talking about is oddly dressed even if it is just pink jeans & a pink t-shirt. Maybe that makes me judgemental, close-minded, old school, I don't know. But it is how I feel. Now, I would never say anything about it or insult anyone. But, it goes along the lines of how I don't understand the trend of guys wearing skinny jeans today. I just look at them & wonder WHY? It doesn't follow my taste & is not how I would choose to dress. Kind of like how my mom hated when I wore jeans with holes in them or low-riding pants. More than once she looked at me & made me change before leaving the house. I don't expect to follow nor understand my kid's fashion trends as they get older, but like my mom will not let them dress too obnoxiously (based on my personal opinion). However, we aren't talking fashion trends, we are talking about a 6 yr old who is being mocked for not following trends or norms. I wouldn't let my kid dress that way at a young age simply because I don't think it is right to send him into the world dressed in a way that is going to get him bullied & mocked.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 11, 2012 17:12:34 GMT -5
I have elementary aged children - one boy and one girl. I find the cut of clothing very different, even though the shape of the kids is not dramatically different. The "boy jeans" and "girl jeans" are most definitely cut differently. The boys clothes are boxier - very square. My daughter does have some "uni-sex" t-shirts, but most of the ones in the girl department are now cut in a more tailored way. You can see how you can take a simple t-shirt fabric and make the cut just "girlier."
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 17:17:24 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of the episode of The Office where Pam comments on the cute baby girl (that is like 4 months old), only told be told that it is a boy & pink is his favorite color. Dude, it starts so early these days! Remember my annoying houseguests from a few weeks ago? They had their little boy with them and aside from being ridiculously adorable, he had very long curly hair (especially for a one year old). I asked my friend if he got mistaken for a girl and she rolled her eyes and said "ALL THE TIME." Now people are encouraging her to cut his gorgeous hair because "boys shouldn't have hair that long." Bullshit, I say. It is really hard to judge the sex of a baby or even toddlers sometimes. That is why pink & blue clothing for infants are so traditional. It sucks when someone makes a comment about your cute baby boy & it is your DD or vice versa.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 11, 2012 17:22:29 GMT -5
The "boy jeans" and "girl jeans" are most definitely cut differently. The boys clothes are boxier - very square. I am noticing this & kind of disappointed. I thought DD would be able to wear many of DS's old shorts & jeans, but have since realized many of them are too boyish, although I couldn't pin down exactly why. She wears many of his old pajamas & stuff, but I am haivng to buy her clothes appropriate for school because she looks weird in much of his stuff. Turns out she really digs skirts & dresses though, so his stuff wasn't her type anyway. Kind of odd for me because I was a huge tomboy & never wore that stuff.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 11, 2012 17:27:28 GMT -5
"People don't treat me badly very often. I am white, have classic features, good skin, teeth and health. I am not overweight. I am friendly and was fortunate enough to grow up in a family where I learned the manners and expectations of dominant culture. When I get bad service it is usually over the phone. Really, my values are not tested very much other than returning rudeness from a customer service rep with a polite response."
susanb - good points and I haven't really thought about it but I fall into this category as well. I dress professionally, have no tattoos or body piercings, good teeth, etc. This is how I like to look. I don't have the classic look just to be mainstream, I do because that is how I like to look. I am not drawn to tattoos or body piercings but try not to judge those who have them. We are all judgmental at times though. A few weeks ago I was eating in a restaurant and a couple with a boy about 5 yrs old walked in and the kid had one of those 1985 rat tales hanging down his back. I. TRIED. NOT. TO. JUDGE. I didn't succeed. I judged but kept it to myself...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 11, 2012 17:27:52 GMT -5
My daughter's style is also different from mine. But even weirder is that my song doesn't dress like I "expected" either. He only wears athletic gear. He won't wear jeans. I force him to when we go to the mountains and it is snowing - but other than that - all athletic gear, all the time. He owns one pair of jeans and one shirt with a collar - so on Christmas he has something to wear when everyone else is dressed up.
But, I am trying to teach him that red and orange don't go together, and other fashion "don'ts." I'm sick of men growing up thinking it is okay to look like they just escaped from a mental hospital because their mothers were too lazy to say "No, that shirt and those shorts are independently okay, but it is unacceptable to wear them together."
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