Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 16:45:01 GMT -5
I am sorry but you are wrong. If that was the case, then I could just lay down on 3 seats across and the people who are supposed to be sitting there, well, they can stand since they didn't buy that space, just a ride. If my ticket says 6A, then I bought that seat fully for that ride. It doesn't say half of 6A. I don't know why you are turning this into something against obese people. It is not.
True, you're buying a certain seat - but you're not buying the inalienable right not to have anyone in your space at any point.
And I'm not "making it into" anything. I'm expressing my personal distaste with the policy. I conceded several times that it's a difficult problem with no easy solution. The current policy may well be the best we can do. I don't think so, but as Lena says, I've been wrong before.
I guess the thing I find troublesome is the fact that you're forced to pay for double the amount of normal space when in fact you might only NEED a few extra inches of space. I understand that it's a seat and it's a certain size, period. But it still seems slightly unfair that you have to literally pay double price when you don't need a double seat.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 16:46:54 GMT -5
...:::"...just now you get to be the one to discipline.":::...
I take that as permission.
...:::"She gets time-outs all the time for things like eye-poking, but she is either stubborn or a slow learner.":::...
I bet you just haven't found the right punishment yet. I'd give her a good caning. If that doesn't work, there is always whiskey.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2012 16:51:29 GMT -5
:I guess the thing I find troublesome is the fact that you're forced to pay for double the amount of normal space when in fact you might only NEED a few extra inches of space. I understand that it's a seat and it's a certain size, period. But it still seems slightly unfair that you have to literally pay double price when you don't need a double seat. :
By that token it's unfair that ANYONE who doesn't completely fill out a seat has to pay for the entire seat when all they NEED is part of one. It's no different than someone who has to pay FULL price when they don't need a FULL seat.
Frankly it's not much different than most things in this world. If I need more than 1 can of pop, i have to purchase 2, i can't purchase 1 & 1/4. I can't get 1 1/2 hot dogs because I'm a little hungrier than one.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 9, 2012 16:51:32 GMT -5
I am sorry but you are wrong. If that was the case, then I could just lay down on 3 seats across and the people who are supposed to be sitting there, well, they can stand since they didn't buy that space, just a ride. If my ticket says 6A, then I bought that seat fully for that ride. It doesn't say half of 6A. I don't know why you are turning this into something against obese people. It is not. True, you're buying a certain seat - but you're not buying the inalienable right not to have anyone in your space at any point. And I'm not "making it into" anything. I'm expressing my personal distaste with the policy. I conceded several times that it's a difficult problem with no easy solution. The current policy may well be the best we can do. I don't think so, but as Lena says, I've been wrong before. I guess the thing I find troublesome is the fact that you're forced to pay for double the amount of normal space when in fact you might only NEED a few extra inches of space. I understand that it's a seat and it's a certain size, period. But it still seems slightly unfair that you have to literally pay double price when you don't need a double seat. But, most companies sell things in specific and predetermined units. For airlines the units they sell are seats. So if you can't fit into one, unfortunately, you need to purchase a second. And most airlines that have policies where they only charge 75% of the seat and for many airlines they refund the cost of the second seat if the flight isn't full. And it's not like the airline can sell only half a seat to another passenger.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 16:52:55 GMT -5
Frankly it's not much different than most things in this world. If I need more than 1 can of pop, i have to purchase 2, i can't purchase 1 & 1/4. I can't get 1 1/2 hot dogs because I'm a little hungrier than one.
And most airlines that have policies where they only charge 75% of the seat and for many airlines they refund the cost of the second seat if the flight isn't full. And it's not like the airline can sell only half a seat to another passenger.
Good points. But 2 cans of pop instead of 1 is $3 instead of $1.50. Two plane seats instead of one can be hundreds of dollars more. It's a bigger price differential.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 16:56:46 GMT -5
...:::"...just now you get to be the one to discipline.":::... I take that as permission. ...:::"She gets time-outs all the time for things like eye-poking, but she is either stubborn or a slow learner.":::... I bet you just haven't found the right punishment yet. I'd give her a good caning. If that doesn't work, there is always whiskey. LOL, Whiskey for you or for her? Punishment is tricky when they are young. I remember threatening to take all DS's toys from his room as punishment once. Only it didn't work, so then I had to go through the effort of taking all the toys from his room while he watched not caring at all & still wouldn't do what I asked. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) DD is so much more stubborn than DS ever was, but I am trying to be consistent so that eventually she will learn. I suppose I could take the swamp approach, but instead of biting back, poke her in the eye back or hit her back.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 9, 2012 16:58:08 GMT -5
...:::"I said the same thing a few months ago. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) WWBG got testy and threatened that if my kids were seated next to him, he'd feed them junk and show them Japanese Manga Porn. I told him to go right ahead, a few hours plane ride by myself is a luxury worth making a few tradeoffs for.":::... Ah ah ah... what WWBG got testy over was the implication that I was somehow OBLIGATED to switch seats with you just because, or else you'd give me some snarky passive-aggressive "mmmmkay, you'll be sorry" and have your kids act up to "punish me". I am under no obligation whatsoever to give up my nice aisle (which I probably booked months in advance, and checked in 23h59m prior for) in exchange for your middle that you got last minute. You are free to ask me. I am free to say no. You are not free to disrespect me just because you didn't get your way. Did we not just have a huge respect thread about this! I'm sure the few hours of peace and quiet will come in handy for thinking of answers to questions like "Mommy, what was that Japanese space octopus doing to those schoolgirls?" ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Non, non, non mon ami! You completely confuse me with another poster. Others were saying that they felt the airlines and other passengers should switch people to accomodate families. I said no such thing. In fact, I agreed that people should feel free to sit in their assigned seats. I'm way too direct to even attempt any passive aggressive BS. If my kids are separate from me, it would work out one way or another. They're pretty well behaved in reality and if sitting next to them didn't both whatever stranger they were next to, that's fine with me. You are always way too ready to turn everything into a knock down, drag out fight and power struggle. Even when people are agreeing with your position, you can't cool your jets for a minute to hear it. Seriously.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 17:03:17 GMT -5
so yeah - they know they likely wont fit by the rule, but absolutely no intention of buying another seat or going first class or whatever. Basically - they are going to continue to inconvenience others for as long as they get away with it - and then be completely outraged when someone says - hey - you're inconveniencing someone. Yeah, those comments got a little extreme. I wasn't necessarily endorsing the blog by posting it, so we're clear. Just showing the other side.
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Jul 9, 2012 17:03:44 GMT -5
:By that token it's unfair that ANYONE who doesn't completely fill out a seat has to pay for the entire seat when all they NEED is part of one. It's no different than someone who has to pay FULL price when they don't need a FULL seat. I'm thinking there are relatively few adults who find today's airline seats roomy. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Firebird, I understand what you are saying. But there is no way to sell an airline seat by the inch. There is no way to slide armrests over an inch or two or five, and charge one person more for those inches and give a rebate to the person in the next seat. I think requiring an obese person to buy an extra seat is the best solution we're going to get.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 17:04:42 GMT -5
I was debating with Angel D over her specific implication that last time that if I didn't acquiesce to HER seat exchange wishes, then her kids would punish me until I did.
I don't like the idea of airlines profiteering off simple things like seat changes or bathroom usage, or overhead space being charged for.
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comom1
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Post by comom1 on Jul 9, 2012 17:06:39 GMT -5
Okay, as the resident YM airline employee, I've had nearly 30 years of experience at this. Here's my two cents.
We've always sold multiple seats to one person. When we still had aero-stretchers, you had to buy nine seats to accommodate it. We also sold an extra seat to overweight people. The ticket was issued to the person with their last name and "extraseat" as their first name. It still works the same way.
Fifteen years ago, we usually had just one or two seat belt extenders on a flight. They were almost never used. Today, we have at LEAST two on planes as small as 50 seats. I've been on flights where we've taken a delay in order to get more extenders.
Some regional jets have seats that are only about 17.5 inches wide. Virtually all seats in large jets are at least 18.5 inches wide. That will accommodate anyone who's merely "overweight" and those who are mildly obese. The problem is, no one seems to think they are obese. We've gotten so fat, that obese looks overweight, overweight looks like normal and normal looks skinny. One study showed that 75% of parents with overweight children thought they were normal or underweight. People need to quit hiding their heads in the sand. It wasn't that long ago that no state had an obesity rate over 20%. Now only one state has one that's UNDER 20%.
Airlines shouldn't have to re-configure all their aircraft because people have chosen to get fat. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, it is a choice. Fuel is our largest cost and if you're fat, you cost us more. We try to average out prices, but if you take up more than one seat, you should have to pay for it. No one wants you in their lap and they shouldn't have to be uncomfortable because you can't control your diet.
We do deny boarding to people with severe body odor. We deny boarding to people with unruly kids. We deny boarding to drunks. In fact, it's against the law to knowingly allow an intoxicated person to board a commercial aircraft. It can be extremely difficult and requires a tremendous amount of tact, but we do it. We can't catch every person that might be a problem, but if it's brought to our attention, we'll find a way to deal with it. The problem is, most people don't say anything until the plane is in the air. Then it's too late for us to fix it.
We can't solve every problem, but we try. If people would admit they have a problem and deal with it ahead of time, it would make everyone's life easier.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 17:07:39 GMT -5
...:::"Only it didn't work, so then I had to go through the effort of taking all the toys from his room while he watched not caring at all & still wouldn't do what I asked.":::...
I'm going to starve my kids. No supper is a great way to save on groceries.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 9, 2012 17:08:08 GMT -5
I was debating with Angel D over her specific implication that last time that if I didn't acquiesce to HER seat exchange wishes, then her kids would punish me until I did. I don't like the idea of airlines profiteering off simple things like seat changes or bathroom usage, or overhead space being charged for. No, you were "debating with" me - implied by your quote of my statement before your counterargument. The problem was that you were misrepresenting what I had stated last time. Have you thought about taking up boxing? Really. It's a good stress release and you'd have a chance to take out some of your frustration in a way that isn't harmful to the people you want to have relationships with. Although it doesn't really matter that you're always argumentative on the Board, it can't help your marriage one bit. Think about how to mellow.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 17:09:42 GMT -5
...:::"Fifteen years ago, we usually had just one or two seat belt extenders on a flight. They were almost never used. Today, we have at LEAST two on planes as small as 50 seats. I've been on flights where we've taken a delay in order to get more extenders.":::...
If I ever need one of these, its going to be made of black ballistic grade nylon with red accents, with the 3 blades of the empire (my avatar) engraved on the buckle, and my initials monogrammed on the pull strap. Perhaps I'll also have one of Italian leather.
There has to be an industry here.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 17:11:58 GMT -5
I'm sorry milee, if I got you confused. I do remember having this debate with others the last time this thread came up.
Seriously though, as the idiot who pre-emptively checks and follows the rules, and puts in extra work to make sure I get the outcome I want; it irks me when someone else blatantly disregards everyone else and gets rewarded with the same prize I worked hard for.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 17:16:17 GMT -5
Airlines shouldn't have to re-configure all their aircraft because people have chosen to get fat. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, it is a choice.
To me, "should" or "shouldn't" is a bit beside the point in these discussions. You can say that carmakers "shouldn't" have to build wider seats and bigger cupholders - but they did, because the market began to demand it. Same principle here.
No one disputes the fact that people are getting fatter. So as a customer service industry, the obvious answer is to accommodate people's growing size by widening the seats. "Should" you have to do that? No, I suppose you shouldn't. But are people going to go right on getting fatter whether you do it or not? Yes. If a competing airline starts widening the seats, are they going to get some of the business you might have gotten? I'm thinking, yes.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 9, 2012 17:16:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry milee, if I got you confused. I do remember having this debate with others the last time this thread came up. Seriously though, as the idiot who pre-emptively checks and follows the rules, and puts in extra work to make sure I get the outcome I want; it irks me when someone else blatantly disregards everyone else and gets rewarded with the same prize I worked hard for. Yeah, but seriously, I agreed with you. And even as someone with kids, I agreed that random people should not have to give up their seats for our convenience. I joked about how the (unintended) consequence might be that they ended up having to sit next to my kids, but I'm OK with that risk if they are. For the record, although I joke about my boys being heathens, they are not and I'd frankly kill them if they were. They go everywhere from the yacht club to fancy dinners to the theatre to international trips and are well behaved, so why would I allow them to be rude to people on a plane? If we want other people to treat us politely and with respect, we have to first give that respect to others. I follow the rules and respect others even if it's not convenient for me - and that's what I'm teaching my boys as well.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 17:25:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry milee, if I got you confused. I do remember having this debate with others the last time this thread came up. That might have been with swamp, I don't recall having this conversation before. I just thought it was hysterical thinking of you trying to corrupt my kids by reading a book to them. Good luck with that. Although I imagine most people would be willing to swap seats in some way or another to get me sitting with my kids given their young ages. I guess will see next month. So not looking forward to flying with them ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 17:26:38 GMT -5
It was their choice to NOT buy adequate space. Everything rest on them. I don't care about why or how they are large. I don't want them to feel bad. i just want to have my seat and not be touched by a stranger.So back before the airline changed the policy and they were actually able to buy two seats for one person, they were supposed to do what exactly - stay home? You always could buy a second seat, it is just now mandatory for some airlines. As I said, I knew a woman who would buy a second seat for her harp and she has been doing this for longer than I have been alive.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 17:28:12 GMT -5
No one disputes the fact that people are getting fatter. So as a customer service industry, the obvious answer is to accommodate people's growing size by widening the seats. "Should" you have to do that? No, I suppose you shouldn't. But are people going to go right on getting fatter whether you do it or not? Yes. If a competing airline starts widening the seats, are they going to get some of the business you might have gotten? I'm thinking, yes. And that comes down to a business decision, but until one airline ups the ante & gets more business as a result, I don't think we will see a change in the industry. That is pretty much how the economy works unless you want the govt to start putting together regulations regarding having larger seating or providing a second seat free. If something like that happened, then we will all see higher prices as a result.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 17:31:30 GMT -5
It's an interesting - and sad to me - psychological phenomena of what happens when people of a like mind get to talking about "others" who disagree with that mindset. It can get ugly, very quickly.Exhibit A: Your Money
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 9, 2012 18:19:46 GMT -5
Ha!
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 18:21:08 GMT -5
I don't understand what's wrong with moxie's "one liners." ^Me thinks perhaps chiver is a wee bit chubby and is one of those who goes around airplanes grabbing at others' peaNUT sacks. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 9, 2012 18:27:55 GMT -5
Rukh, I agree that there is something telling about the use of the word "humiliate." Like Comom said, most obese people don't think of themselves that way - "could stand to lose a few pounds," "a little overweight," etc., but not obese. I can imagine anyone would find it humiliating for their self-image to go from "chubby" to "too fat to fit in a plane seat" over the course of a minute or two.
It's always difficult when the veils of denial are yanked from you. With that in mind, I wonder how much effect publishing the seat measurements would actually have...
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 9, 2012 18:51:17 GMT -5
Airlines shouldn't have to re-configure all their aircraft because people have chosen to get fat. Yes, in the vast majority of cases, it is a choice.To me, "should" or "shouldn't" is a bit beside the point in these discussions. You can say that carmakers "shouldn't" have to build wider seats and bigger cupholders - but they did, because the market began to demand it. Same principle here. No one disputes the fact that people are getting fatter. So as a customer service industry, the obvious answer is to accommodate people's growing size by widening the seats. "Should" you have to do that? No, I suppose you shouldn't. But are people going to go right on getting fatter whether you do it or not? Yes. If a competing airline starts widening the seats, are they going to get some of the business you might have gotten? I'm thinking, yes. The problem is that what sells is cheap flights. That is why airlines like Ryanair are doing so well. They offer ridiculously cheap flights. It doesn't matter that the seat pitch is 29 inches compared to a standard 31 inches. It doesn't matter that seats aren't as wide as a standard airline seat. Those seats sell because they are cheap. And if people were willing to pay more money for larger seats than an airline like Midwest Airlines wouldn't have gone out of business.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 19:20:24 GMT -5
The problem is that what sells is cheap flights. That is why airlines like Ryanair are doing so well. They offer ridiculously cheap flights. It doesn't matter that the seat pitch is 29 inches compared to a standard 31 inches. It doesn't matter that seats aren't as wide as a standard airline seat. Those seats sell because they are cheap.
True, BUT if enough people are being forced to pay double fare and an airline pops up which offers wider seats for a slight increase in cost, there won't be much contest.
I'm not suggesting they'll make it a major selling point, but it's going to become clear pretty quickly if they offer wider seats without charging double price, and larger people will book with them instead. Perhaps Midwest Air simply missed its time.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 19:27:24 GMT -5
Or they could just charge by the pound ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Yeah right, most women don't even tell the truth about their weight on their driver's license.
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 19:30:36 GMT -5
You guys have such a sensitive side. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/confused.png)
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 19:31:20 GMT -5
"Yeah right, most women don't even tell the truth about their weight on their driver's license." I just renewed mine a week ago. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/shucks2.png)
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 19:31:44 GMT -5
"Yeah right, most women don't even tell the truth about their weight on their driver's license."
What's a pound or seventy-five? ;D
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