Airline policy on obesity - fair?

[Firebird]

I'm clearly behind the times, since I didn't even know about this and it's been an active airline policy for awhile now. DH mentioned it this weekend and I thought it was kind of crazy but here it is:

Under the new policy, obese passengers — defined as unable to lower the arm rest and buckle a seat belt with one extension belt — will still be reaccommodated, at no extra charge, to two empty seats if there is space available.

If, however, the airplane is full, they will be bumped from the flight and may have to purchase a second ticket, at the same price as the original fare, Urbanski said.

A couple points of discussion:

1. If you are obese and need to travel a lot for business, does this mean only your first fare will be reimbursed and in effect you have to pay for your OWN air travel, except when you are lucky enough to be on a flight with extra space? How do you think your company would handle this?

2. Would it be better to offer wider non first-class seats that people could choose (for a slightly increased fare) whether obese or not, to prevent humiliating people once they're already on the plane?

3. Should the airline offer meals and accommodation to obese passengers delayed because there's not enough room on the first flight (the way they do when passengers are delayed due to weather)?

Is this policy fair or not fair? Why or why not?

[Miss Tequila]

Jul 9, 2012 10:43:31 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I'm clearly behind the times, since I didn't even know about this and it's been an active airline policy for awhile now. DH mentioned it this weekend and I thought it was kind of crazy but here it is:

Under the new policy, obese passengers — defined as unable to lower the arm rest and buckle a seat belt with one extension belt — will still be reaccommodated, at no extra charge, to two empty seats if there is space available.

If, however, the airplane is full, they will be bumped from the flight and may have to purchase a second ticket, at the same price as the original fare, Urbanski said.

A couple points of discussion:

1. If you are obese and need to travel a lot for business, does this mean only your first fare will be reimbursed and in effect you have to pay for your OWN air travel, except when you are lucky enough to be on a flight with extra space? How do you think your company would handle this?

2. Would it be better to offer wider non first-class seats that people could choose (for a slightly increased fare) whether obese or not, to prevent humiliating people once they're already on the plane?

3. Should the airline offer meals and accommodation to obese passengers delayed because there's not enough room on the first flight (the way they do when passengers are delayed due to weather)?

Is this policy fair or not fair? Why or why not?

I think it is absolutely fair. I have been stuck on a plane twice where I was literally being sat on because the person was morbidly obese and couldn't fit in their own seat. I paid for MY SEAT and am entitled to full use of the seat.

I was younger when this happened...now I would complain to a flight attendent.

[Deleted]

[cronewitch]

They should have a way to determine if you need special accommodation before buying a ticket. Then they could have a part of the plane set up with two across in a three across space so charge 1.5 times not double since most would probably not need twice as wide of seat.

When a coworker needed to travel for business she needed two seats and told the company she would pay for the second but they said they would since it was for them. She was embarrassed to have to talk about it.

[souldoubt]

To be blunt I think you have to be pretty big to to not be able to lower the arm rest or get the belt buckled with one extension. I see nothing wrong with this because I don't think other passengers should suffer (get smushed, not be able to get out to use the restroom, etc) because of someone elses weight. It's not fair to someone else who pays the same price to have another passenger spilling over into their seat.

[Deleted]

I agree that it is fair, but airlines should do what they can to avoid humiliating people. Kevin Smith (the director) got bounced of a plane once and more or less declared war on the airline via twitter. Never underestimatethe fan base of a potty mouthed chubby dude.

craftysarah's suggestions for chubby airplane etiquette:

(1) publish the seat width/belt length information on the airline website. Give a chubby person the chance to try things out at home, so they can make other arrangements if necessary
(2) encourage people to purchase two seats if they need them, but refund that money if the flight isn't full.
(3) establish minimum seat sizes that reflect the actual size of people. Since the inception of air travel, seats have shrunk while people have gotten bigger. That seems like the wrong pattern.

[whoisjohngalt]

Yes, I do think it's fair.

Also, I wonder how long before it starts spilling to other areas of our lives. Hospitals is one example that comes to mind. Their beds and gurneys are often too small for obese people. Will they start charging certain patients extra? Desks and chairs at offices and schools.....

With all the "diet" products out there we are not getting thinner, so it will start costing individuals and country as a whole more and more

Lena

[Firebird]

I agree that it is fair, but airlines should do what they can to avoid humiliating people. Kevin Smith (the director) got bounced of a plane once and more or less declared war on the airline via twitter. Never underestimatethe fan base of a potty mouthed chubby dude.

And I feel like they only apologized to him because of his celebrity status. What about all the non-celebrities who were terribly humiliated by this policy? It doesn't sit well with me.

I like craftysarah's suggestions.

[shanendoah]

I am morbidly obese- closer to 300 than 200 for a long time now. I've always been able to lower the armrests (not comfortably- I have wide hips without the extra weight) and fasten the seatbelt without using any extender- so yes, you do have to be quite big for this to matter.
Still, I think it would be nice if seats on planes were a little roomier- width and leg room wise.

If an airline is going to require a second ticket purchase, than I think they need to make the requirements for that very clear on their homepage, which should include measurements so that people know in advance. Making people play a guessing game just so that they can be humiliated on the plane is mean.
But, I think airlines think that the fat humiliated people will just take it (they are fat after all, so they deserve to be humiliated- it will motivate them to lose weight), and therefore, they feel that's a better PR move than actually posting their requirements on their website where everyone will be able to see them.

ETA: And see how little space they are trying to cram everyone into (not just the fat people).

[whoisjohngalt]

As skeptical as I am in general, I just don't think that airlines are trying to humiliate people. There is only so much a flight attendant person can do/say in a discreet way in a such close environment.

Lena

[Firebird]

kateharding.net/2009/04/16/funited/

I figured I knew YM's general position on this before I posted. Here's a look at the other side, if anyone's interested. The comments make for very interesting reading.

[Firebird]

As skeptical as I am in general, I just don't think that airlines are trying to humiliate people. There is only so much a flight attendant person can do/say in a discreet way in a such close environment.

Then what do they have against posting the width and length measurements on their websites so people can measure at home? This shouldn't be left to flight attendants in the first place. Talk about a nightmare.

[Driftr]

Jul 9, 2012 10:43:31 GMT -5 Firebird said:

A couple points of discussion:

1. If you are obese and need to travel a lot for business, does this mean only your first fare will be reimbursed and in effect you have to pay for your OWN air travel, except when you are lucky enough to be on a flight with extra space? How do you think your company would handle this?

2. Would it be better to offer wider non first-class seats that people could choose (for a slightly increased fare) whether obese or not, to prevent humiliating people once they're already on the plane?

3. Should the airline offer meals and accommodation to obese passengers delayed because there's not enough room on the first flight (the way they do when passengers are delayed due to weather)?

Is this policy fair or not fair? Why or why not?

1) I don't know what my company would do. I specifically took this job so that I would no longer be required to travel. Not being obese, I never had a need to look into my prior company's travel rules about this.
2) No. I do not think the airline needs to accomodate obese travelers.
3) No. If the airline has made the requirements known ahead of time I do not belive they are under an obligation to feed someone who should have known they had a good chance to get bumped.

The policy is fair. Expectations are laid out ahead of time and it is up to the individual traveler to decide whether they are acceptable or not.

[zibazinski]

They have things that you have to fit your carrion into in order to be allowe to take it on board. Why not have a seat for you to try? If you fit, no issue. If you don't, you can buy an extra seat then and there.

[swamp]

Jul 9, 2012 11:30:12 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

They have things that you have to fit your carrion into in order to be allowe to take it on board. Why not have a seat for you to try? If you fit, no issue. If you don't, you can buy an extra seat then and there.

you can bring dead stuff on a plane?

[sheilaincali]

Should I have a right to demand that the passenger next to me be bounced from the plane or charged for an extra seat due to their excessive Body Odor? Or the mom with the crying kid should she have to pay extra since she is inconveniencing me? What about the drunk woman next to me that spilled her drink all over my carry on? Should she have been charged extra? Should people get two bathroom trips and that's it before they are charged extra? I hate having an aisle seat and having to get up two dozen times because someone can't control their bladder. What about the jackass in front of me that kicks his seat back immediately so I can't use the tray? Should I be able to charge him extra for infringing into my personal space? What about the idiots in the front of the plane that run out of overhead bin space and come back to the cheap seats to shove their carry on in above my head? Is that part of my personal space?

Fat people- the last group of people you are allowed to make fun of and penalize for the way they look

[Firebird]

2) No. I do not think the airline needs to accomodate obese travelers.

Really? Do you think they need to accommodate disabled people, injured people, elderly people, or people with children?

Flying isn't always going to be a pleasant experience. The worst flying experience *I* ever had was when I was in the center seat and had an older gentleman on my left who fell asleep the minute the flight took off and kept leaning/falling into my seat and drooling on my shoulder. No amount of gentle shrugging could keep him off me.

And he was skinny. I'm just saying.

[zibazinski]

I'm sorry but I'm smaller than average and don't wish to have anyone's body encroaching on mine. I used to always pick windows until I got crammed, and yes, I was younger, so said nothing, but really, what could I have said? My main issue is with babies/toddlers flying for free. Everybody should have a seat and a ticket. I'm tired of your so-called 2 year old that looks like its 4 kicking the back of my seat and btw, I have to put my purse under my seat for landings and take offs, what about your flying baby or toddler's safety?

[zibazinski]

Damn spell check! . Carry on.

[Angel!]

Jul 9, 2012 11:31:15 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Should I have a right to demand that the passenger next to me be bounced from the plane or charged for an extra seat due to their excessive Body Odor?

I remember there was a reality show about some airline where they wouldn't let a guy board the plane because of his odor.

Or the mom with the crying kid should she have to pay extra since she is inconveniencing me?

There have been several instances where they have gotten kicked off the plane.

What about the drunk woman next to me that spilled her drink all over my carry on? Should she have been charged extra?

If you are drunk they can refuse to let you on the plane.

Fat people- the last group of people you are allowed to make fun of and penalize for the way they look

I agree that fat people tend to get mocked more than most anymore, but many of the situations you describe the airline can & does deal with. So lets not pretend that somehow fat people are the only group that the airline "picks on".

Personally, it seems to me if you don't fit in the small seat, then you should either fly first class or purchase two seats. IMO, the purchase of a seat is a purchase of that space on the aircraft, if you don't fit in that space, then purchase more.

United's site does indicate that seat belt extenders are generally 25 inches long, but that they & the seats themselves vary by aircraft.

[Deleted]

If I'm paying for one full seat,I expect to be able to use it.

[Deleted]

Legit problem results in revenue enhancer for airlines... News at 11..

[Driftr]

Jul 9, 2012 11:34:02 GMT -5 Firebird said:

2) No. I do not think the airline needs to accomodate obese travelers.

Really? Do you think they need to accommodate disabled people, injured people, elderly people, or people with children?

Really.

Yes.

[Angel!]

Jul 9, 2012 11:34:02 GMT -5 Firebird said:

2) No. I do not think the airline needs to accomodate obese travelers.

Really? Do you think they need to accommodate disabled people, injured people, elderly people, or people with children?

I guess I don't quite understand the comparison. All those you mentioned may need help boarding, deboarding the plane. But, they all fit within the given space provided for their seat.

I guess the real question is - should a person who requires additional seating or a larger seat be charged more money for this need? They are taking up space that could have otherwise been sold to an additional passenger or for higher prices (first class), so is it fair to the airline that they not be allowed to charge more for this?

I guess it depends on whether you think the purchase of a ticket means you get reasonable accomadations from A to Z regardless of your size or if you think a ticket gets you a 17" seat to sit in to travel from A to Z.

[Firebird]

There have been several instances where [moms with crying kids] have gotten kicked off the plane.

Really?! I've never heard of this happening. Do you have a link? How can you kick someone off the plane for this if the kid starts crying after takeoff or during flight? (I thought most kids began crying after takeoff because their ears hurt.)

[Firebird]

Jul 9, 2012 11:42:00 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Jul 9, 2012 11:34:02 GMT -5 Firebird said:

2) No. I do not think the airline needs to accomodate obese travelers.

Really? Do you think they need to accommodate disabled people, injured people, elderly people, or people with children?

Really.

Yes.

Okay, so I have no idea if this is what you MEANT or not, but what you actually said was that airlines shouldn't allow obese people to fly on their planes. That's what "accommodate" means. So again I ask, are you REALLY suggesting that obese people shouldn't be allowed to fly?

[whoisjohngalt]

Then what do they have against posting the width and length measurements on their websites so people can measure at home? This shouldn't be left to flight attendants in the first place. Talk about a nightmare.

yes, airline can post anything they want, but John might "think" that he is only 200lb and 46 inches round, but it doesn't necessarily means he is. So, than what? Should people be required to get on the scale and have a measurement tape with them before boarding the plane?

As far as stinky people - I think they should be kicked off. Also, people who wear too much perfume. People with crying children are already in their own personal hell - so, I would leave it up to them. Drunks - depends. If they are funny drunks - they can stay. If they are pukey drunks - they have to go, midflight, for all I care. People who kick "your" sit - we should be allowed to tie their legs together and stuff it under their own seat. And people who have any carry on AT ALL, they should pay for their seat, their "purse" and buy everyone a drink. Well, except the ones who already drunk.

Lena

[Driftr]

Jul 9, 2012 11:48:50 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Jul 9, 2012 11:42:00 GMT -5 Driftr said:

Really.

Yes.

Okay, so I have no idea if this is what you MEANT or not, but what you actually said was that airlines shouldn't allow obese people to fly on their planes. That's what "accommodate" means. So again I ask, are you REALLY suggesting that obese people shouldn't be allowed to fly?

No. I'm saying that the airline should not build and should not be forced to build bigger non-first class seats to accomodate fat people.

[Firebird]

I guess I don't quite understand the comparison. All those you mentioned may need help boarding, deboarding the plane. But, they all fit within the given space provided for their seat.

Not necessarily. I flew once with a friend who had a broken leg. We needed three seats because with only two, my friend's leg was sticking into the aisle and impeding the flight attendants and other passengers. No one gave us any shit about it, they just gave us the extra seat.

Granted, I have no idea what they would have done had the flight been full - but I sincerely doubt we would have been kicked off. Most likely, they would have found a way to make it work.

And disabled people? Are you kidding? Someone who needs to board the plane in a wheelchair doesn't take up more space than an obese person once on the flight?

I guess it depends on whether you think the purchase of a ticket means you get reasonable accomadations from A to Z regardless of your size or if you think a ticket gets you a 22" seat to sit in to travel from A to Z.

Yes, that's basically what it comes down to - are you paying for a seat, or are you paying for passage? Two very different answers.

[Deleted]

I'm with Lena on all except my purse. You will have to pry it from my kung-fu grip!