8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 11:56:46 GMT -5
I hope we can discuss this with the level of civility that these matters demand.
My first reaction is to "one extension". An extension is not necessarily a fixed unit of measurement (as no standard was cited) so I would make sure that my extension was long enough to accommodate me, and I would argue that since the policy is an "and" not an "or", that the armrest is irrelevant as I do not meet the criteria to be considered obese.
Isn't a first class ticket significantly more than two economy tickets?
I think that it comes down to consistency with rules. Airlines are for-profit businesses that offer a service people want. As such, they have some leeway in making rules and customers can vote with their dollars. HOWEVER, said rules do need to be consistently applied, and clearly articulated.
I also think that flight crews are so overburdened with the negativity from how much flying sucks, that they are more than willing to look the other way on issues like this. After all, the stewardess is not personally hurt if a "customer of size" is encroaching on an individual passenger's space (or a crying kid, or a seat-recliner...).
I liked the response from the JetBlue CEO (or whatever value airline it was) to some disgruntled passenger. "Let him tell the world how horrible we are, he'll be back when we save him a few dollars". People are voting with their dollars. People crave cheap fares above all else.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 11:58:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:01:22 GMT -5
I hope we can discuss this with the level of civility that these matters demand. you know we can't!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 9, 2012 12:02:27 GMT -5
I honestly don't know what this world is coming to sometimes. Yes. If I purchase a seat on an airplane, I want to be able to use my whole seat. But if I can't? I'm not going to die from it. I'm going to be a bit inconvenienced and uncomfortable, but I sure as heck can't see being inconvenienced or uncomfortable enough to humiliate someone over it by complaining.
That being said, if a person does require two seats, I can see how they should be expected to pay for two seats. If this happened to me, my agency would reimburse me for whatever the costs were because they are requiring me to travel. I also agree with whomever said that the space requirements should be spelled out in advance so that a person knows what will be required of them when they arrive.
I think that for some, the aggravation stems from a belief that being "fat" is a choice. For most, it is. For some, it isn't. I'm always getting comments about my weight. "Don't you ever eat?" "A good wind would blow you away." It's humilating and distrubing that anyone thinks they have a right to comment on my weight. I can't even imagine what overweight people go through. So to humiliate them in public is just not something I would do. I believe that 99% of that could be taken care of by pre-advertised restrictions.
As far as reimbursement for meals in case you are bumped? I wouldn't. To me, poor planning on your part doesn't constitute a written check from me. People who are too heavy generally know they are too heavy, don't they? If it were me, I'd plan on that contigency and be prepared for it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 12:04:05 GMT -5
And disabled people? Are you kidding? Someone who needs to board the plane in a wheelchair doesn't take up more space than an obese person once on the flight? Everytime I have seen someone in a wheelchair fly they get placed in a normal seat like everyone else & the wheelchair is stowed somewhere. Not sure if that is at an extra cost to the customer or not.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:04:51 GMT -5
Isn't a first class ticket significantly more than two economy tickets?
Yes. Especially on short flights.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 12:05:40 GMT -5
Southwest has a similar policy - only it is just about armrests having to be able to go down & they specify the armrests are 17" apart. They suggest you buy 2 seats & if the plane is not full they will reimburse one of those seats.
ETA - Southwest's site also said they have had this policy for 31 years.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jul 9, 2012 12:08:02 GMT -5
I know lots of lovely obese people who I want the very best for. The last thing I want is for any of the obese people I love to be parted with more of their money or their dignity.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where being obese costs more. It costs the airline more in $ and fuel to transport 400 lbs than it does to transport 40 lbs. An obese person has to spend more on fuel for their own personal car for the same reason. Clothing for obese people costs more as more material is used. Healthcare costs more because of the health problems related to obesity.
Now we have to decide who will pay for these increased costs. Should obese people pay for increased costs associated with their weight or should society/others pay for that cost? Many obese people pay for their weight in so many non-monetary ways that I don't want them to have to pay more, but I don't think it is right for people who aren't obese to pay for it either.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jul 9, 2012 12:12:03 GMT -5
People who are too heavy generally know they are too heavy, don't they? If it were me, I'd plan on that contigency and be prepared for it. I don't fly often enough to know anything about the seat sizes and requirements. I flew once in the 80's and once in the 90's but don't remember the seat sizes and they may have shrunk. I was at a low weight for me probably both times I flew so have no idea what it would take to require a seat belt extender or how long one is. My fat is pretty flexible so if had to have arm rest down I could probably squeeze into a small seat but I wouldn't know unless I tried it. Flying is too unpleasant and confusing to make me ever want to fly again. I would rather take a grayhound.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 9, 2012 12:14:36 GMT -5
OKOK...how about letting skinsters to pay extra $$$ for 100% assurance that they aren't seated next to the chubster? Chubsies will have an option to pay extra OR to be seated with other chubsters...imagine that 3 chubby people sitting next to each other and trying to position the flubs...I think that should be fair!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 9, 2012 12:17:17 GMT -5
...:::"I think that for some, the aggravation stems from a belief that being "fat" is a choice. For most, it is. For some, it isn't.":::...
I think the "choice" is the second, larger thought expressed as the person works through his/her mental monologue. I'd imagine the first is "this person is going to be pressed up against me the entire flight and I'll be sore for days".
I know overweight people have said that they can see the looks on people's faces as they walk down aisles in planes. People look away with that "oh PLEASE don't be sitting next to me" look as a larger person approaches. If the large person pauses near them, that look changes from contempt to fear, and then when the person says "this is my seat" it changes to disappointment, then frustration. Can't be fun, thats for sure...
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 9, 2012 12:22:09 GMT -5
...:::"I think that for some, the aggravation stems from a belief that being "fat" is a choice. For most, it is. For some, it isn't.":::... I think the "choice" is the second, larger thought expressed as the person works through his/her mental monologue. I'd imagine the first is "this person is going to be pressed up against me the entire flight and I'll be sore for days". I know overweight people have said that they can see the looks on people's faces as they walk down aisles in planes. People look away with that "oh PLEASE don't be sitting next to me" look as a larger person approaches. If the large person pauses near them, that look changes from contempt to fear, and then when the person says "this is my seat" it changes to disappointment, then frustration. Can't be fun, thats for sure... I am not small by ANY means...but I would not put another person into this uncomfortable cituation where I sat on someone for whatevr reason I am fat...doesn't matter! If I am fat by choice or natural causes - so fat that I am sitting on somebody during whatev er transportation event - I will not go on the ride or will find way to make it non-invasive for others! So if you are big - save up some more and get yourself xtra space!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jul 9, 2012 12:24:56 GMT -5
I find it interesting that once again, we are picking on the fat people. I've done a lot of travel on business and have found that the tall (or not so tall) guys who have to spread their legs and encroach on my leg space are much more unpleasant to deal with than the occassional fat person. At least the overweight personal always ASKS and is usually very apologetic about requesting additional space while the leg sprawlers assume it is their right to take as much space as they want.
Yes I am a short person, but I don't want to have to press my legs against the bulkhead to avoid your smelly feet!
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 12:29:00 GMT -5
There is a simple solution here...let the chubby ones lay flat in their seats the whole flight, the fat will distribute evenly and they won't be chubby again until they sit up in their seats just before disembarking.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Jul 9, 2012 12:30:47 GMT -5
I find it interesting that once again, we are picking on the fat people. I've done a lot of travel on business and have found that the tall (or not so tall) guys who have to spread their legs and encroach on my leg space are much more unpleasant to deal with than the occassional fat person. At least the overweight personal always ASKS and is usually very apologetic about requesting additional space while the leg sprawlers assume it is their right to take as much space as they want. Yes I am a short person, but I don't want to have to press my legs against the bulkhead to avoid your smelly feet! thacaptain... I think you need to post another thread Airline policy on hight - fair? I am not sure how is long feet are smellier than shot ones?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:33:26 GMT -5
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:35:26 GMT -5
It costs the airline more in $ and fuel to transport 400 lbs than it does to transport 40 lbs.
Cars I can understand. They're relatively tiny vehicles. But flights? I'd think that one would have to weigh THOUSANDS, not hundreds, of pounds to impact the cost of fuel on an aircraft.
But I admit that I know nothing about the science of fuel economy. I just can't imagine an extra hundred pounds making much of a difference on any but the tiniest of aircraft.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:37:25 GMT -5
I think the "choice" is the second, larger thought expressed as the person works through his/her mental monologue. I'd imagine the first is "this person is going to be pressed up against me the entire flight and I'll be sore for days".
I imagine "well it's their own fault for being fat" HAS to play into this to a very great extent, otherwise people would immediately recognize the obvious here: if it's uncomfortable to be squished in next to a fat person, imagine how uncomfortable it is for the fat person to be squished in and additionally have to worry about encroaching on you.
No one seems to give a rip about their discomfort because *obviously* they could weigh whatever they wanted to and have this not be an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:39:13 GMT -5
It costs the airline more in $ and fuel to transport 400 lbs than it does to transport 40 lbs.Cars I can understand. They're relatively tiny vehicles. But flights? I'd think that one would have to weigh THOUSANDS, not hundreds, of pounds to impact the cost of fuel on an aircraft. But I admit that I know nothing about the science of fuel economy. I just can't imagine an extra hundred pounds making much of a difference on any but the tiniest of aircraft. you're assuming there is only one largely overweight person on board. What if 10% of your passengers are overweight? And what if that flight already has a lot of heavy luggage on board? I don't know much, but I know that weight increases drag and that drag cuts down on efficiency.
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moxie
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Post by moxie on Jul 9, 2012 12:41:46 GMT -5
Today at 12:24pm, thecaptain wrote: I find it interesting that once again, we are picking on the fat people. I've done a lot of travel on business and have found that the tall (or not so tall) guys who have to spread their legs and encroach on my leg space are much more unpleasant to deal with than the occassional fat person. At least the overweight personal always ASKS and is usually very apologetic about requesting additional space while the leg sprawlers assume it is their right to take as much space as they want. Yes I am a short person, but I don't want to have to press my legs against the bulkhead to avoid your smelly feet! ^And what about the lil rugrats sitting behind you who dig their lil feet into the back of your seat the whole flight?!?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 9, 2012 12:41:50 GMT -5
You usually say that intent doesn't matter, so in this case, it really shouldn't matter why a person is fat. As cruel as it might sound, he might have a terminal illeness and is flying to say goodbye to his also dying dear old grandmother, but many people don't want to spend 1/2/5 hrs side to side (and I mean your side touching his side) with a stranger. And since he already knows that it will be 100% the case of him touching someone and I only know that it will be 50% chance for me touching somebody, why should "I" be buying an extra ticket?
Lena
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:41:57 GMT -5
I don't see why it is an issue to make people who do not fit in their seat properly to buy an extra ticket. Just because you can lower the armrests does not mean you fit in the seat. I weigh 125 lbs, I can lower the armrests but still there isn't much room left. I cannot imagine somebody twice as much as me putting the armrests down and not spilling over the other seat. It is not about humiliating people for being overweight. It is about everybody's comfort, I don't have to be uncomfortable just because the other person may feel uncomfortable for being told to purchase a 2nd ticket. I am assuming most overweight people know they are overweight and they would know if they need to purchase a 2nd seat. Same goes for tall people. I don't want somebody I do not know touching me and spilling into my seat (top or bottom). Having said that, I think airlines do need to start making seats bigger because the seats are TINY even for skinny people!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:45:11 GMT -5
you're assuming there is only one largely overweight person on board. What if 10% of your passengers are overweight? And what if that flight already has a lot of heavy luggage on board? I don't know much, but I know that weight increases drag and that drag cuts down on efficiency.
But everyone is saying "why should we be responsible for the extra costs of obese people?" By that same token, why hold obese people responsible for the extra costs of OTHER obese people? Shouldn't they be responsible only for the extra costs that they're directly responsible for creating?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 9, 2012 12:46:59 GMT -5
Well, plenty of people have asked that families be all put together. Probably easier on the kids if they are close to other kids, less boring. So why not put the heavier people next to each other? That way they are only inconvenienced by those that they have something in common with? I'm sorry that for whatever reason you are heavier than average but that still does not give you the right to sit in my seat or encroach upon my space. This is why I choose aisle seats so if the person next to me is challenging in some way, I can lean out and away.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:48:22 GMT -5
You usually say that intent doesn't matter, so in this case, it really shouldn't matter why a person is fat. As cruel as it might sound, he might have a terminal illeness and is flying to say goodbye to his also dying dear old grandmother, but many people don't want to spend 1/2/5 hrs side to side (and I mean your side touching his side) with a stranger.
Fair point about intent.
I don't know what the solution is here, but I dislike the idea of humiliating *one* segment of problematic travelers based solely on their size, especially when there are *many* segments of problematic passengers that can make your flight uncomfortable.
I mean, in my mind a plane ticket is passage from Point A to Point B. You're not paying for comfort, you're paying for expediency (or, if you're in first class, you're paying for both). If the flight isn't all that comfortable for you, well, tough shit. The airline doesn't guarantee you comfort.
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Colleenz
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Post by Colleenz on Jul 9, 2012 12:48:57 GMT -5
I think it is a fair policy. Most obese people can lower the armrests and fit within one extender. Really, if you are bigger than that you should know to buy an extra seat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:50:17 GMT -5
"But everyone is saying "why should we be responsible for the extra costs of obese people?" By that same token, why hold obese people responsible for the extra costs of OTHER obese people? Shouldn't they be responsible only for the extra costs that they're directly responsible for creating?"
Should we all pay based on how much weight (including luggage) we bring on to the plane? Because if it is only about weight, then a person who doesnt weigh much could be bringing a lot more weight. It really isn't about weight. It is about taking somebody else's space...
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jul 9, 2012 12:51:49 GMT -5
I think it is a fair policy. Most obese people can lower the armrests and fit within one extender. Really, if you are bigger than that you should know to buy an extra seat. Yes. You should. Seems sad that the airline has to put it in writing, but that's what you get when apologists and lawyers start running amok.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 9, 2012 12:52:49 GMT -5
To the person who commented about the tall person, I have never had someone put their feet in my space. I would ask them to move if they did. The difference is that you CAN'T ask someone to suddenly fit in their own seat.
I don't see it as discrimination at all. If you can't fit in your seat, you dont' get to sit on top of the person next to you.
I'm fortunate because I fly as a family so i am always in a row with my kids now so it hasn't been an issue. But trust me, I would be pissed if I was sat on for my 4 hour flight to Mexico last month. It is beyond rude of someone to assume because they can't fit in their seat that they have the right to squeeze into mine.
I'm just a normal size...not anorexic but not overweight...I do not have a problem fittign into my seat.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:53:21 GMT -5
Well, plenty of people have asked that families be all put together. Probably easier on the kids if they are close to other kids, less boring. So why not put the heavier people next to each other?
Which ties into my suggestion of making a few seats a bit wider. Convert two or three rows on the plane to "two wide seats" instead of "three narrow seats," charge 50% more for those seats, and mark them specifically on the seat selection tool when you're booking your ticket.
Obese people would self-select those seats, pay 50% more (but not 100% more because most of them don't NEED double, just a little more than average), not inconvenience other passengers, not be humiliated. Problem solved.
The airline wouldn't even lose any money, assuming the flight was full. And I imagine some non-obese people would like those seats as well, e.g. parents with children, so they had a bit of extra room for comfort. They wouldn't only appeal to the obese. I bet a bunch of people would pay more for wider seats who aren't currently willing to pay the highway-robbery first class prices.
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