zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 9, 2012 12:53:57 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 9, 2012 12:55:15 GMT -5
When I flew with my kids, you could ask for the bulkhead which was nice because the kids could get out of their seats and play on the small space in front of the seats. The extra wide seating would offer some seat space to do the same thing.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:55:40 GMT -5
Yes. You should. Seems sad that the airline has to put it in writing, but that's what you get when apologists and lawyers start running amok.
Unless I'm much mistaken, you didn't have the OPTION of buying more than one seat for one person before this policy went into effect. So it's actually the airline's fault, not the individual's, for not buying two seats for themselves in the first place.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2012 12:56:20 GMT -5
:And disabled people? Are you kidding? Someone who needs to board the plane in a wheelchair doesn't take up more space than an obese person once on the flight?:
No, you put them in a seat and then put their wheelchair in storage, they take up no extra seat space.
:Not necessarily. I flew once with a friend who had a broken leg. We needed three seats because with only two, my friend's leg was sticking into the aisle and impeding the flight attendants and other passengers. No one gave us any shit about it, they just gave us the extra seat. :
Sounds no different than what they're doing with obese passengers when there are empty seats.
:Granted, I have no idea what they would have done had the flight been full - but I sincerely doubt we would have been kicked off. Most likely, they would have found a way to make it work. :
How do you think they would have "made it work"? If there are 300 seats, and 300 people, and your friend needs 3 seats...someone's not getting a seat. It's simple math. If you take up more than 1 seat, and you cannot fit into 1 seat no matter what, you can't just magically make an extra seat appear. The only way to make it work is to have your friend fit in one seat, if that works then great, but by definition the obese people do not fit in 1 seat since if they did, they don't fit into the category being discussed.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jul 9, 2012 12:57:10 GMT -5
Yes. You should. Seems sad that the airline has to put it in writing, but that's what you get when apologists and lawyers start running amok. Unless I'm much mistaken, you didn't have the OPTION of buying more than one seat for one person before this policy went into effect. So it's actually the airline's fault, not the individual's, for not buying two seats for themselves in the first place. I had no idea. Sounds like win/win.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:57:09 GMT -5
I'm fortunate because I fly as a family so i am always in a row with my kids now so it hasn't been an issue. But trust me, I would be pissed if I was sat on for my 4 hour flight to Mexico last month. It is beyond rude of someone to assume because they can't fit in their seat that they have the right to squeeze into mine.Hmm, so... does that mean if I'm too obese for a single seat and I'm flying with my five year old and the two of us can fit into two seats comfortably, I don't need an extra seat?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 12:58:54 GMT -5
"If the flight isn't all that comfortable for you, well, tough shit. The airline doesn't guarantee you comfort. "
I don't think economy class is comfortable for anyone. But if I am paying for a seat, then I have every right to use the full seat as comfortable or uncomfortable as it may be. Just because the airline does not guarantee you comfort does not mean I need to be made even more uncomfortable by somebody who does not have the sense to purchase a 2nd seat for not fitting in their space. It is not okay to be only worried about the comfort of somebody at the expense of the other's comfort.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 12:59:06 GMT -5
Sounds no different than what they're doing with obese passengers when there are empty seats.
Except that I doubt they would have charged my friend for the extra seat he took up in that situation. I don't know for sure because our flight wasn't full, but now I'm seriously wondering. If they're being consistent, they should have kicked him off the flight and made him pay full fare for an extra seat. Somehow I doubt that would have happened. Perhaps they would have kicked him off and made him wait for a flight with an extra seat, but I can't see him being made to pay for it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 12:59:52 GMT -5
It costs the airline more in $ and fuel to transport 400 lbs than it does to transport 40 lbs.Cars I can understand. They're relatively tiny vehicles. But flights? I'd think that one would have to weigh THOUSANDS, not hundreds, of pounds to impact the cost of fuel on an aircraft. But I admit that I know nothing about the science of fuel economy. I just can't imagine an extra hundred pounds making much of a difference on any but the tiniest of aircraft. I don't think it is so much about fuel economy than the fact that if a fat person needs 2 seats, that is one less seat they can sell for several hundred bucks to someone else. Thus if the airline just starts giving seats away on full flights, they will start losing a great deal of money. Which is they only require you to purchase an extra ticket on full flights.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:01:04 GMT -5
I don't think it is so much about fuel economy than the fact that if you a fat person needs 2 seats, that is one less seat they can sell for several hundred bucks to someone else.
Hence my idea about the 1.5 width seats for 1.5x the cost.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 9, 2012 13:01:18 GMT -5
Well, plenty of people have asked that families be all put together. Probably easier on the kids if they are close to other kids, less boring. So why not put the heavier people next to each other? Which ties into my suggestion of making a few seats a bit wider. Convert two or three rows on the plane to "two wide seats" instead of "three narrow seats," charge 50% more for those seats, and mark them specifically on the seat selection tool when you're booking your ticket. Obese people would self-select those seats, pay 50% more (but not 100% more because most of them don't NEED double, just a little more than average), not inconvenience other passengers, not be humiliated. Problem solved. The airline wouldn't even lose any money, assuming the flight was full. And I imagine some non-obese people would like those seats as well, e.g. parents with children, so they had a bit of extra room for comfort. They wouldn't only appeal to the obese. I bet a bunch of people would pay more for wider seats who aren't currently willing to pay the highway-robbery first class prices. And can we put in smaller cheaper seats for children since they don't need a full seat, seats with 50% more legroom for tall people, etc. It makes a lot of sense to modify some seats to suit specific types of people until you realize that there isnt' just one other type of person to accomodate. You could customize the entire plane with different types of seats...or you could standardize the seats and let someone pay for 2 if they need more than 1.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 9, 2012 13:02:56 GMT -5
I don't think it is so much about fuel economy than the fact that if you a fat person needs 2 seats, that is one less seat they can sell for several hundred bucks to someone else. Hence my idea about the 1.5 width seats for 1.5x the cost. And the extra costs of retro-fitting all their planes with these new seats & the costs to build/purchase all these new seats. Now everyone's ticket prices can go up so that the airlines can cover all these additional costs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:03:23 GMT -5
"Obese people would self-select those seats, pay 50% more (but not 100% more because most of them don't NEED double, just a little more than average), not inconvenience other passengers, not be humiliated. Problem solved. "
The only problem is maybe other people would want top buy these larger seats even if they do not "need" them. What if they run out of those seats? Then what happens? Are they not allowed to fly? It is even more discriminating if you have specially reserved seating for obese people. So you will have 1st class, economy class and obese class? That is more humiliating than asking them to purchase two seats to begin with.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:03:45 GMT -5
How do you think they would have "made it work"? If there are 300 seats, and 300 people, and your friend needs 3 seats...someone's not getting a seat.
I've thought about this some more - and my new theory is that I think they would have "made it work" by putting him on an aisle and working around him, inconveniencing other passengers to do so, unless a seat in first class was available - in which case they would have upgraded him at no cost.
And the reason they can't/won't "work around it" in a similar way with an obese person is because my friend's broken leg wasn't perceived to be his "fault."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:05:50 GMT -5
I'm pretty average sized, but I can't remember the last time I took a flight where I wasn't uncomfortable. While I am tall for a woman, I'd be average height for a man. Yet, I almost always sit with my shoulders uncomfortably rolled forward, because while the seat is plenty wide, there isn't enough room for your shoulders and arms between the two seats (and I'm a wimp so I tend to concede the shared space to the person in the next seat.
And I always have problems with leg room. If the person in front of me reclines at all, they will ram into my kneecaps. If the in-flight magazine isn't too thick, I typically have 1-2 inches between my legs and the seat in front of me.
I'm willing to give the airlines some leeway to charge people more if they require more space, but not until they establish enough space to accomodate most people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:05:59 GMT -5
"And the reason they can't/won't "work around it" in a similar way with an obese person is because my friend's broken leg wasn't perceived to be his "fault.""
I would think it is because an obese person does not become obese in the few months he purchased the ticket, but a person could have broken their foot between the time they purchased the ticket and flying.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jul 9, 2012 13:07:32 GMT -5
Just as a note, for those of you who travel with kids, some airlines make no effort to seat you next to your kids, and others will charge you more money to have two adjacent seats (becuase they charge a premium on window or aisle seats). www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/05/22/forced-to-fly-solo-even-on-family-vacations/I think the problem is is that Airlines have realized they are more like a utilities than customer service based organizations. We live in a society where there is often the need to get from one side of the country to the other in a matter of hours (or at least one day instead of 4). And people are willing to suffer through anything to save a few extra bucks doing it. That's why airlines are able to let customer service go by the wayside. They can charge for checking luggage, charge you to sit next to your child (though I'd pay a premium NOT to sit next to the kid whose parent is in a different row). Heck, there was even some talk a few years ago by one of the European discount airlines of getting rid of seats altogether (no, I don't know how that was supposed to work). And unless we change our attitudes about how long it should take us to get from one place to the next, airlines are going to continue to be able to nickel and dime all of us. (And trust me, they'll find ways to come after the regularly sized and skinny people, too.)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:09:09 GMT -5
You could customize the entire plane with different types of seats...or you could standardize the seats and let someone pay for 2 if they need more than 1. Or you could just customize based on the problem that people are actually complaining about and leave it at that. No one complains about the seats being TOO wide. And the extra costs of retro-fitting all their planes with these new seats & the costs to build/purchase all these new seats. Now everyone's ticket prices can go up so that the airlines can cover all these additional costs. Good point, but it's not like people are getting any thinner. I have a feeling that sooner or later, extra-wide seats are going to be necessary anyway. Plus, how much revenue is the airline losing from obese passengers who are pissed off about this policy? There's no "good" solution here, but I just don't like this one. I can see where it makes sense but it seems like it's inviting humiliation of fat people.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:10:26 GMT -5
The only problem is maybe other people would want top buy these larger seats even if they do not "need" them. What if they run out of those seats? Then what happens?
You should be able to take any option that you can afford. If the plane has no wide-seats available and you need/want one, what happens? Same thing that happens right now if your flight is sold out, or if your first class option is sold out. You take another flight. If the demand for wider seats is consistently outstripping the number available, the airline will build more. Supply and demand.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 9, 2012 13:11:02 GMT -5
I hate Allegiant but it's the only non stop to Clearwater. They are so bush, period. But I don't think airlines deliberately set out to piss people off, that's just a perk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:12:07 GMT -5
flying is a privilege, not a right. If people find that flying is problematic, there are other ways to get where you need to go.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:12:28 GMT -5
I would think it is because an obese person does not become obese in the few months he purchased the ticket, but a person could have broken their foot between the time they purchased the ticket and flying.
Either way, obesity and a broken leg would NOT be treated the same way even if the amount of extra space needed was identical in both cases.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:14:59 GMT -5
"Same thing that happens right now if your flight is sold out, or if your first class option is sold out. You take another flight. If the demand for wider seats is consistently outstripping the number available, the airline will build more. Supply and demand. "
I don't know how that would work. If you cant fly first class, you can always fly economy if you need to get somewhere. What happens if the 1.5x seat is not available and the overweight person needs to fly? Buy 2 tickets? Also, there are a lot more obese people in the midwest than the coasts. Should they have more 1.5x seats in the midwest flights? I think the best is Southwest's policy where overweight people have to purchase 2 seats and if the flight is not full then they are refunded. Unless the airlines start making ALL of their seats larger to accommodate MOST people.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:16:13 GMT -5
What happens if the 1.5x seat is not available and the overweight person needs to fly? Buy 2 tickets?
I like the idea of that being a backup option better than I like the idea of it being the ONLY option.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Jul 9, 2012 13:16:24 GMT -5
There have been several instances where [moms with crying kids] have gotten kicked off the plane.Really?! I've never heard of this happening. Do you have a link? How can you kick someone off the plane for this if the kid starts crying after takeoff or during flight? (I thought most kids began crying after takeoff because their ears hurt.) People get kicked off planes all the time for not behaving. My husband had a mother and 7 or 8 year old removed from his plane because the kid would not stop SCREAMING....literally at the top of his lungs. A number of people tried talking to him but he just wouldn't stop. He has also thrown off drunks, people who are extremely belligerent and some nut who had a rubber chicken who he believed was entitled to its own seat in first class. No joke.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 9, 2012 13:16:30 GMT -5
I think trying to compare obesity to someone who broke a bone is trying to find some rare case where the situation is similar but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't compare. Something like one third of US adults are obese but I've never seen one third of people on planes I get on in a cast, on crutches, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:16:55 GMT -5
"Either way, obesity and a broken leg would NOT be treated the same way even if the amount of extra space needed was identical in both cases. "
You are right. Because it is not about the amount of space required. One is known when you purchase the ticket, the other is not necessarily. And one is temporary, the other usually is not.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 9, 2012 13:21:21 GMT -5
You are right. Because it is not about the amount of space required. One is known when you purchase the ticket, the other is not necessarily. And one is temporary, the other usually is not.
I don't think that's why they're not treated the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:21:37 GMT -5
flying is a privilege, not a right. If people find that flying is problematic, there are other ways to get where you need to go. I just killed a very weird 10 minutes reading about travel by cargo ship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2012 13:22:44 GMT -5
They have bigger seats, they're called first class. And people that don't fit in the economy seats should buy them. I pay extra for my luggage to take extra bags or if it's heavier than the 50kg or whatever it is. What I find really fun is watching the show when two or three obese people get seated together. The stewardess asked different people to trade with them. Most people worded it nicely but all of us said something to the effect of "are you nuts?"
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