Apple
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Post by Apple on Jul 1, 2012 11:15:54 GMT -5
Off topic, but should I be ashamed I just 69'd TG?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:21:46 GMT -5
Pink, Virgil, Thanks for posting even if your view is not the common one here. Understanding is always good IMO even if I don't agree. I can see in practice where for certain couple's that philosophy might have a more equal relationship in practice and a couple with a more equal philosophy in practice might look more like the abuses of the guy gets the final say system. I have a sister who would rather be right than happy. She also believes she knows the best answer in every situation so I could see her steam roller over a mate like she attempts to do so in the family. I'm no longer close to her because her need to be right has extended to her need for others to be wrong more than once in a blue moon. When I was married, I was dominant in the relationship. I knew it wasn't the worst problem to have but I still didn't like it. I've matured since then, but I still wouldn't want to be with a passive man that I could run over.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 1, 2012 11:25:25 GMT -5
Off topic, but should I be ashamed I just 69'd TG? lol.....only because you're pointing that out on YM instead of EE where it would actually be appreciated. FTR, when I 68'd him, I was a bit bummed that I couldn't get him all the way there. lol....
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 11:27:53 GMT -5
I want to watch this. ;D ETA: I also want to watch when Mrs. Virgil threw a shoe at him and then he invoked biblical privilege.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 1, 2012 11:37:21 GMT -5
Same reason anyone else does anything, except we don't believe there's an invisible sky person keeping notes.
FWIW, I'm glad to not be a Christian if being one would mean I had to submit to my husband. Our strengths/weaknesses complement each other so we're a pretty good team - and we have an equal partnership. If something is REALLY important to him, I'll usually give in, and vice versa. Has nothing to do with our genders.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:39:33 GMT -5
Christianity says to "submit ye one to another" and to "esteem others better than yourself" and to "do unto others". A Christian husband is not to lord over his family with an iron fist. He is supposed to "love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it". That doesn't sound like channel surfing and bossing your wife around.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 1, 2012 11:43:29 GMT -5
*sigh* Another time, another thread, Ms. JD. As with the rest of Reply #96, we would appear to be debating different things. I am off to a Canada Day luncheon anyway, so I bid thee all Happy Canada Day, a preemptive Happy Independence Day, and adieu. Excellently put.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:45:28 GMT -5
Thanks Virgil!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 1, 2012 11:56:43 GMT -5
So it's OK to quote Bible verses and take cracks at atheists, but not OK for atheists to respond. Duly noted.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 11:56:45 GMT -5
Christianity says to "submit ye one to another" and to "esteem others better than yourself" and to "do unto others". A Christian husband is not to lord over his family with an iron fist. He is supposed to "love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it". That doesn't sound like channel surfing and bossing your wife around. Shooby, I've always been totally lost with the Christ loved the church argument. Christ died based on biblical prophesy not whether the church existed. The church existed to follow his teachings. Why is it a big sacrifice to protect it in any way?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 12:00:13 GMT -5
So it's OK to quote Bible verses and take cracks at atheists, but not OK for atheists to respond. Duly noted. I don't think he's taking a crack at you. I think he truly does not understand people who aren't modeling their behavior on belief in God from any religion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 12:01:51 GMT -5
So it's OK to quote Bible verses and take cracks at atheists, but not OK for atheists to respond. Duly noted. For what its worth, I thought "invisible sky person" was a lovely turn of phrase.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 1, 2012 12:08:38 GMT -5
So it's OK to quote Bible verses and take cracks at atheists, but not OK for atheists to respond. Duly noted. I don't think he's taking a crack at you. I think he truly does not understand people who aren't modeling their behavior on belief in God from any religion. in addition to this, I also took it to mean that he wasn't going to engage in a debate about his religious beliefs. fwiw, I can't wrap my brain around people that live their lives solely (or as closely as possible) by the "rules" written by a bunch of guys, thousands of years ago - in whatever flavor. but, as long as those opinions don't encroach on the laws that rule the land for everyone, I say to each his or her own.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jul 1, 2012 12:11:20 GMT -5
Different situation so not sure how it applies, but...
Right now (for the last 4 months and the next two weeks while the guy filling in is on vacation) I have been the foreman for my crew. My crew, and the other crews I work with, is/are all men. Some are "macho" men, some "nerdy", some "conservative", some "liberal", just a big mix. But, I am "the boss". We had a horrible experience with the last boss, he would make arbitrary decisions that were just asinine and everyone had to follow them. He was also a micromanager in the worst way, so you weren't allowed to do anything correctly or efficiently unless you wanted to sit there and argue with him, and he could not work with the other crews. I have a different approach.
There are guys I completely trust to do their job. When a decision has to be made I tell them that they are the one doing the job, they can make it for themself because I know in the end the job will be right. That is my respect for their judgement, knowledge, capabilities and experience. I have other guys I cannot trust to do it right, so I have to either tell them how to do it or keep checking in on them. It completely sucks that I can't respect their abilities.
There are two guys on my crew that want to argue every little thing with me, mostly because I am female so must not know anything (I can out perform them on anything except pure bull-strength). They want to give me attitude and grief. They are both starting to realize there is a reason I tell them to do something a certain way. I usually say "do it how you think is best" but if I say "do it this way" I ALWAYS have a reason, be it based on experience of the past, knowledge that doing it wrong will cause it to blow up in your face (sometimes you just don't eff with electricity) or knowledge of things to come that need to be prepped for. Usually if someone wants to know why I say "do it this way" they will ask. These two want to argue. If I say "fine, do it however you want" they have learned to be worried--that usually means that they will be completely redoing the job, or it's not going to work (I won't just let them do it if I know someone will get hurt or major equipment will get damaged). So, the arguing and bs over me "not having a penis" has been cut down some.
Everyone but these two are happy I'm in charge (including the people on the other crews). They are hoping our "real" foreman does not come back so I can get the job permanently. Obviously, this is way out of the "gender role" for this field. There is earned respect for both sides though, and my decisions are not arbitrary and I'll go out of my way to help someone (on my crew or another crew).
This is the kind of respect I'd need for a future mate. I'm more than willing to let someone "be the man" but I won't put up with disrespect either. The two assholes on my crew have proven they don't deserve respect (although I still try to show it to them). The guys on the crew don't respect either of them at all (and one, who is friends with one of them outside of work has completely distanced himself from the guy at work).
I can't imagine being stuck in a marriage to either of them and being expected to defer the decision because he is "the man" (and I was raised as a Christion--I think Pink Cashmere and I have a lot of similarities).
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 12:12:35 GMT -5
So it's OK to quote Bible verses and take cracks at atheists, but not OK for atheists to respond. Duly noted. For what its worth, I thought "invisible sky person" was a lovely turn of phrase. It's much more eloquent than the "Imaginary Dude Hanging out in Heaven" imwas going to reference.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 12:57:48 GMT -5
Tallguy-have you always been this darn sexy? Or is this someone new posting as Tallguy? I think this is a new tallguy because I actually like this one. Ummmm, yes, no, and "sorry about that." I'll fix it though. Not being a moderator now I am freer to just post what interests me. I couldn't do that when I had to spend so much time and effort corralling children and miscreants. (There, mj. You can go back to disliking me now. All will be well in your world again....) ;D
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 13:00:31 GMT -5
Off topic, but should I be ashamed I just 69'd TG? lol.....only because you're pointing that out on YM instead of EE where it would actually be appreciated. FTR, when I 68'd him, I was a bit bummed that I couldn't get him all the way there. lol.... It's funny. Normally I'm at least aware when someone does that to me. I trust you enjoyed it anyway though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 13:12:48 GMT -5
:)I deliberately let Virgil argue the religious aspect, even though my views are shaped by what I've learned in church. My opinion is unpopular enough here without having to defend my religion too. LOL
I think shooby's summary of how its supposed to work for Christians was great.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 13:13:46 GMT -5
Virgil, I respect your beliefs even if I don't share them.
Honestly, I just never saw it work in the way you explained it. Most of the men I know that do the whole I am the man and therefore I am the head of the household thing are totally and complete douchecanoes! I was raised by very strong willed women (my mom and aunts) that there was no way a man was going to be the boss of her. None of them have ever been divorced either even though they do not do the traditional man is the leader thing. My parents have been married for 39 years, my older aunt has been married around 42 years, and my younger aunt around 35 years. So it can work. I have been married for 15 years (almost, August will be 15 years) and we have never had a traditional type of marriage other than at times I have been a SAHM.
My DH and I just had a discussion about cars. My DH bought a Chevy Traverse in October I believe. We have since moved to Italy and the roads are smaller here, parking spots are smaller, gas is expensive, etc. Goose wants to trade in his Traverse for 2 smaller cars. I told him NO way! We owe a lot of money on the Chevy still. He scraped the side when he drove it to ship it and will be underwater trying to trade it in. We have a big family. The Chevy fits all of us when we want to do a family day. If we trade it in then we will need to drive 2 cars every time we want to do something as a family, and pay gas for two cars. Oh, and it would be nearly impossible to even GET someone to take the car or buy the car here. There isn't a market for it. Italians do NOT buy big cars. According to the way you think things should go, I should have let my DH make the final decision. His decision really doesn't make sense to me and I am telling him NO. Now, if he wants to buy a cheap hoopty small car to commute back and forth to work with, that is fine. We can get one of those for about $1500. He can leave the big ass Chevy home with me and I will either drive it, ride my bike, or take the bus. But I am not willing to let him get rid of it right now and have 2 car payments instead of 1.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jul 1, 2012 13:15:23 GMT -5
lol.....only because you're pointing that out on YM instead of EE where it would actually be appreciated. FTR, when I 68'd him, I was a bit bummed that I couldn't get him all the way there. lol.... It's funny. Normally I'm at least aware when someone does that to me. I trust you enjoyed it anyway though. I have to admit it did give me a slight thrill, but I'm pretty "simple" and it's been way too long. Now back to your regularly scheduled program...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 13:15:51 GMT -5
That's precisely right. And for Christians, the willingness is motivated by a reverence for God. Congratulations on defeating your own argument. It is not the rule itself (or what it is based on) that makes it work. It is the willingness of your wife to buy into it. Having it based on gender is both paternalistic, as you say, and arbitrary, as does most everyone else. It is no more valid in itself than a system based on who is taller, who can run around the block faster, or whose birthday comes earlier in the year. The bottom line is that WHATEVER system a couple chooses to use is valid for them, as long as it works. You will likely argue that yours is guaranteed to work, but so would anyone else's as long as both partners bought into it completely. And you should thank your wife every day for doing so. (Just kidding. I'm sure you do.)
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 13:19:36 GMT -5
It's funny. Normally I'm at least aware when someone does that to me. I trust you enjoyed it anyway though. I have to admit it did give me a slight thrill, but I'm pretty "simple" and it's been way too long. Should we talk?? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 13:24:50 GMT -5
Angel, even in a "traditional" marriage, your husband would say that your opinion on the car makes sense and is what's best for the family, so that's what we'll do. I'm not saying a husband gets to make decisions willy nilly and his family just has to live with it.
I hate typing on my phone, so I'll have to catch up later.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jul 1, 2012 13:37:04 GMT -5
I have to admit it did give me a slight thrill, but I'm pretty "simple" and it's been way too long. Should we talk?? ;D I'll be in Seattle later this month
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 13:53:21 GMT -5
Should we talk?? ;D I'll be in Seattle later this month Really??!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 14:32:41 GMT -5
Pink that is good to hear. I just haven't seen it work that way for the most part. My grandfather was a giant douche and would quote scripture to back up the crap he did and said. I was always so embarrassed to hear him "testify" in church and then go home and treat my grandmother like she was gum on his shoes. It wasn't just him. I saw it with other men in the community we lived in. It was a very redneck alpha male community and I nearly went stark raving mad living there. I have always been very strong willed and independent. I never dated the muscle head jock types. I never dated the alpha males or the guys looking for a traditional relationship. Heck...I didn't ever even planned on getting married because I didn't want a traditional relationship.
So I am rambling now. I do respect your religious beliefs and I think everyone needs to choose what works for them. I know I personally would lose my mind if I married a guy who expected me to be submissive and fill a traditional role.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 1, 2012 20:24:45 GMT -5
Funny, I'm trying to think of an example where DH and I have reached an impasse where under Christian philosophy he'd make the decision. We've never had one. We don't even do rock/paper/scissors or anything. I guess we must talk everything out and find a consensus. Or maybe we take turns letting the person who really wants something get it. BTW - we've been together for 13 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 20:34:40 GMT -5
I think this is a new tallguy because I actually like this one. Ummmm, yes, no, and "sorry about that." I'll fix it though. Not being a moderator now I am freer to just post what interests me. I couldn't do that when I had to spend so much time and effort corralling children and miscreants. (There, mj. You can go back to disliking me now. All will be well in your world again....) ;D No, I think I'll just like you. It'll be hard at first, but I'll get through it.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 20:57:05 GMT -5
Ummmm, yes, no, and "sorry about that." I'll fix it though. Not being a moderator now I am freer to just post what interests me. I couldn't do that when I had to spend so much time and effort corralling children and miscreants. (There, mj. You can go back to disliking me now. All will be well in your world again....) ;D No, I think I'll just like you. It'll be hard at first, but I'll get through it. Fine. Be that way if you want to. But just remember, I offered to help you go back.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 21:01:10 GMT -5
No, I think I'll just like you. It'll be hard at first, but I'll get through it. Fine. Be that way if you want to. But just remember, I offered to help you go back. I *will* be that way, TYVM! Now say something else that's intelligent and insightful!
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