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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 3:58:01 GMT -5
...:::"On nagging, here is my take. Some women nag when they don't feel heard by their men.":::... Nagging is like terrorism, in that it is spectacularly effective, but in the absolute worst way possible, laying waste to everything around. Giving in to nagging means demonstrating that nagging works, which no man wants to do because it leads to more nagging. It is also an extremely self-fulfilling prophecy. The woman then thinks "I HAVE to nag or nothing gets done", so she goes straight to nagging, which the man either gives in to so she shuts up, or holds out longer to prove that he doesn't want to be nagged. Most of the time the nagging is probably resulting from mismatched timetables, which I cover in my next quote. At the very least, it guarantees that the job will be done in the shoddiest, quickest, bare minimum that it takes to get the nag off our backs. ...:::"There are men who either are lazy or oblivious to all the things that really need to get done.":::... Consider that "things that really need to get done" is a highly RELATIVE judgment. Some people apply higher levels of importance than really necessary. I personally consider some relaxation time as something that "must get done". DW, would rather have a counter that is white-glove showroom clean, at the expense of relaxation. The timetable is also very relative. If she had her way, dishes would be done before we ate. I refuse, after spending an hour cooking, to sit down to a lukewarm meal so the dishes can be done sooner. I absolutely agree that nagging is not the desired state that one wants to be in. And, things that need done is a relative judgement. The point i am trying to make is when women feel pressed up and burdened and squeezed by the world, feeling the weight of the world on your shoulders and not feeling like you have partner who is there to help you with that burden is what leads to nagging and other expressions. And, it would behoove someone who wants to have a loving relationship to look at what is going on in their relationship and why.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 4:00:16 GMT -5
Anyway, it seems to make it better when they know I'm not trying to get out of something, but I'm also busy. "Would you take out the garbage while I do the dishes" or "so I can start cleaning the fridge" or "will you mow the yard while I give the dog/kids a bath". Kind of says "now" without saying "now" and still gives a clear desired time for it to get done. Also acknowledges you're busy without saying "I do everything around here". Well said apple. And, i think this is very effective. I think the both people want to feel that the other is working just as hard as them. So, asking to do this while you are doing that does allow the other to hear that you are working another task and understand they will be doing another equally important task or chore.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 4:50:33 GMT -5
Tallguy-have you always been this darn sexy? Or is this someone new posting as Tallguy?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 5:42:58 GMT -5
Tallguy-have you always been this darn sexy? Or is this someone new posting as Tallguy? I think this is a new tallguy because I actually like this one.
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 6:55:46 GMT -5
From a secular standpoint, I can't add much to what I've already said. If you don't find the above arguments compelling, I doubt I'll change your mind on the matter. If you value scripture, I can certainly give you a more detailed scriptural argument. If you want a political analogy, consider that the US is in political lockdown right now because both parties (both of which can be construed to have "reasonable" arguments) "have opinions and beliefs and feel that [they] have the right to make final decisions just as much as [the other party] does", and there is no one definitive "head of household". The result is deadlock, paralysis, hyperpartisanship, and chaos. Frankly, it's destroying the US. And it can destroy marriages just as easily. The political analogy probably isn't a good one as both parties are supposed to be acting on behalf of a larger group of citizens and most of the time they are acting in their best interest first. While it would be nice to have good decisions made quicker I think its better to go for consensus even if it takes longer. Management by consensus often makes better products and better decisions over all but it is in general slower. When decisions are of a time critical nature, say on the battlefield, the hierarchical reporting structure works best. But even then, per the world court, I'm just following orders doesn't wash. Sometimes even if there is a head if they make a critically wrong decision they should be disobeyed.
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 7:00:12 GMT -5
Think of it this way: whenever someone advises someone else to "be a man", what they really mean is usually among the following:
That does help Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:00:39 GMT -5
I don't know that there are very many decisions in a marriage where one person has the absolute final say. And, until there is a consensus between spouses, i don't think it wise to act one way or the other on whatever they are deciding.
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 7:18:10 GMT -5
I guess I will just never understand WHY it is a very big deal for most men or why it is the very heart of the respect issue. For me respect is also very important. I would feel VERY disrespected if my husband said that he gets to make the final decision because he is the man. I guess I am just incapable of being a good submissive wife. I have opinions and beliefs and I feel that I have the right to make final decisions just as much as he does. I don't think that is disrecpectful and I don't get how some guys feel that it is. I don't understand why am less capable of making a decision because I do t have a penis.
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 7:19:47 GMT -5
From a secular standpoint, I can't add much to what I've already said. If you don't find the above arguments compelling, I doubt I'll change your mind on the matter. If you value scripture, I can certainly give you a more detailed scriptural argument. If you want a political analogy, consider that the US is in political lockdown right now because both parties (both of which can be construed to have "reasonable" arguments) "have opinions and beliefs and feel that [they] have the right to make final decisions just as much as [the other party] does", and there is no one definitive "head of household". The result is deadlock, paralysis, hyperpartisanship, and chaos. Frankly, it's destroying the US. And it can destroy marriages just as easily. Not necessarily. Neither DH and I are argumentative buttheads and can compromise when necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:20:40 GMT -5
I guess I will just never understand WHY it is a very big deal for most men or why it is the very heart of the respect issue. For me respect is also very important. I would feel VERY disrespected if my husband said that he gets to make the final decision because he is the man. I guess I am just incapable of being a good submissive wife. I have opinions and beliefs and I feel that I have the right to make final decisions just as much as he does. I don't think that is disrecpectful and I don't get how some guys feel that it is. I don't understand why am less capable of making a decision because I do t have a penis. Cuz you have nothing to grab on to when the going gets tough!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 7:23:49 GMT -5
I can grab my boobs. Since I have two things to grab, I'm more secure and should be the decision maker.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:26:49 GMT -5
Well, if one looks biblically, women are the pinnacle of God's creation. Therefore, as the more highly evolved and complex creature, it is obvious that we are much more qualified! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:30:51 GMT -5
I can imagine that trip to the marriage counselor. :-\ "So, yes, she got scissors and I chose paper, I admit, but this sink she wants, lemme tell you about this hideous sink..." The reason that "if we can't agree, the man prevails" works in your relationship is because you and your wife have mutually agreed to those terms. The fact that this particular rule comes from scripture may have influenced your willingness to adhere to it, but wouldn't you agree it is the willingness, not the rule, that makes it work? Otherwise, you would be just one more couple at the marriage counselor saying "why does a Y chromosome make him the authority on sinks? Let me tell you about this hideous sink..."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:35:30 GMT -5
And, a leader can only lead if there are those willing to follow.
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 7:42:27 GMT -5
From a secular standpoint, I can't add much to what I've already said. If you don't find the above arguments compelling, I doubt I'll change your mind on the matter. If you value scripture, I can certainly give you a more detailed scriptural argument. If you want a political analogy, consider that the US is in political lockdown right now because both parties (both of which can be construed to have "reasonable" arguments) "have opinions and beliefs and feel that [they] have the right to make final decisions just as much as [the other party] does", and there is no one definitive "head of household". The result is deadlock, paralysis, hyperpartisanship, and chaos. Frankly, it's destroying the US. And it can destroy marriages just as easily. Not necessarily. Neither DH and I are argumentative buttheads and can compromise when necessary. I agree with Swamp here. My best relationship was with another strong personality. Working out how to compromise and how to hear each other was more valuable than letting one person force the answer because of their gender. I understand what you say about the neck and the head. Since I have and prefer to keep a straightforward honest personality I'd feel I would lose part of my integrity to be reduced to manipulating my husband to get what I want instead of directly asking and talking about it. Using P&M as a guide if an unpopular decision is made it doesn't stop the argument, it just drives it elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 7:49:56 GMT -5
I guess I will just never understand WHY it is a very big deal for most men or why it is the very heart of the respect issue. For me respect is also very important. I would feel VERY disrespected if my husband said that he gets to make the final decision because he is the man. I guess I am just incapable of being a good submissive wife. I have opinions and beliefs and I feel that I have the right to make final decisions just as much as he does. I don't think that is disrecpectful and I don't get how some guys feel that it is. I don't understand why am less capable of making a decision because I do t have a penis. What if you buy a strap-on? Would that help? And along the same vein, how do men in a gay relationship come to a consensus?
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 8:29:27 GMT -5
MJ Gay men are not supposed to have relationships, its not biblical if you follow the specifics in the bible.
The bible however doesn't address transgenders to my knowledge. If a woman becomes a physical man I would expect that philosophy would now grant her the vote if her partner was female not male.
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 1, 2012 8:37:05 GMT -5
...:::"I guess I will just never understand WHY it is a very big deal for most men or why it is the very heart of the respect issue.":::...
We had this same argument on the "last name" thread. At the end of the day there really is no reason that can't either be flipped right around, or dismissed as "not good enough". I believe that many feelings cannot be articulated in words, they just are. The only way to communicate that is for the situations to be reversed.
I believe this is a major component of respect: knowing when to argue, and knowing when it is important to your partner that you just STFU and give him/her his/her way. This of course works best when you can trust your partner to do the same for you.
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Post by Opti on Jul 1, 2012 8:40:19 GMT -5
Pink, Virgil, Thanks for posting even if your view is not the common one here. Understanding is always good IMO even if I don't agree. I can see in practice where for certain couple's that philosophy might have a more equal relationship in practice and a couple with a more equal philosophy in practice might look more like the abuses of the guy gets the final say system. I have a sister who would rather be right than happy. She also believes she knows the best answer in every situation so I could see her steam roller over a mate like she attempts to do so in the family. I'm no longer close to her because her need to be right has extended to her need for others to be wrong more than once in a blue moon.
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 1, 2012 8:43:56 GMT -5
...:::"The point i am trying to make is when women feel pressed up and burdened and squeezed by the world, feeling the weight of the world on your shoulders and not feeling like you have partner who is there to help you with that burden is what leads to nagging and other expressions. And, it would behoove someone who wants to have a loving relationship to look at what is going on in their relationship and why.":::...
I agree that a hard look is required. It never surprises me how some people, upon scrutinizing perceived inequality, discover that the scales are actually tipped drastically in their favor.
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 1, 2012 9:37:57 GMT -5
I guess I will just never understand WHY it is a very big deal for most men or why it is the very heart of the respect issue. For me respect is also very important. I would feel VERY disrespected if my husband said that he gets to make the final decision because he is the man. I guess I am just incapable of being a good submissive wife. I have opinions and beliefs and I feel that I have the right to make final decisions just as much as he does. I don't think that is disrecpectful and I don't get how some guys feel that it is. I don't understand why am less capable of making a decision because I do t have a penis. I am trying to imagine most of the women here as submissive. If any man doesn't want me to treat him so he feels disrepected then he can start by not treating me like a child who is too stupid to be trusted to make any important decisions.
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 1, 2012 9:58:19 GMT -5
Tallguy-have you always been this darn sexy? Or is this someone new posting as Tallguy? wow, what a heavy thread for a weekend topic! thanks for all the opinions being presented, it's been very interesting reading with my Sunday morning coffee.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 10:31:14 GMT -5
I thought about this thread a lot while I was at work. It made me really examine my view on the subject. But I didn't change my opinion. I thought about the people I know that have been married for decades, (which of course means they're a bit older) and they generally follow traditional roles in their marriage. Maybe these women were wise enough to choose husbands they could trust to take that role. They aren't locked away slaving in the kitchen, waiting on everybody hand and foot, disrespected or treated like they're stupid. One of them runs the money side of the business her husband started, so I'd think he regards her as capable and intelligent. Where I'm from, men are expected to provide and protect, women support and nurture, to put it in a nutshell. We expect our men to know their role and fulfill it. Above all, both genders are supposed to respect and be kind to their spouse. Then again, I'm from the south, we have a lot of rules on how you're suppose to act. Men are suppose to be gentlemen and women are suppose to act like ladies. At least in public.
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Post by svwashout on Jul 1, 2012 10:32:54 GMT -5
Example from our generation: "they still owe you money fool" is not a sign of r-e-s-p-e-c-t.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 1, 2012 11:00:45 GMT -5
I'm saying that "intelligence, knowledge, or judgment" become incredibly subjective issues, especially when limiting ourselves to cases where a husband and wife have reached an impasse.
If a husband and wife are at an ideological impasse, I guarantee you they aren't going to resolve it by having one of the participants declare "I'm simply more intelligent, knowledgeable, and of more sound judgment on this issue than you". Try it sometime if you want Mrs. Tall to throw a shoe at you. If you want to make things ten times worse, bring in an "impartial" arbitrator and have him tell Mrs. Tall that her intellect and judgment are inferior to yours on the matter.
By definition here, we are in a situation where a couple has reached an impasse. The couple cannot agree on who is more knowledgeable, intelligent, etc., and a decision still needs to be made.
If you'd been so kind as to read my post, the peacemaker clause comes into effect if and only if "unreasonableness and/or obstinacy" has been the conclusion of the consensus-building process.
I am not advocating that a husband and wife toss out ideas, have no debate, and have the husband say "well, my way goes". Certainly there can be debate and persuasion and appeals to reason. As I said, in a good marriage where both participants love and respect each other, this process will yield a mutually satisfactory agreement the vast majority of the time. When debate is going nowhere, the man gets to put his foot down.
First of all, a man is not simply a woman with a penis. A reindeer is not a horse with antlers tied on.
Secondly, the system works for Christians because the buck stops at scripture. Husband and wife argue. Impasse reached. Our Lord and Creator says "man gets last word". Simple. Definitive.
For an atheist, I have no idea. Frankly, I have no idea why atheists do anything. You could try arguing with your spouse about how much more intelligent and just you are, and when that inevitably fails, try paper rock scissors as Ms. Sarah suggests.
That's precisely right. And for Christians, the willingness is motivated by a reverence for God. For atheists, as I say, I have no idea why they do anything.
I'm using it as an example of two groups at a longstanding impasse, where both groups contain a lot of intelligent, knowledgeable, and compassionate people, despite what the other side says. That's the extent of the analogy.
It depends on the definition of "optimal". If you consider my full argument, I'm saying that "the" optimal is greater than simply "ensuring the 'right' decision is made the majority of the time". By various famous theorems, optimal by one definition necessarily means suboptimal by others.
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 11:04:10 GMT -5
DH and I have actually have used rock, paper, scissors to resolve disputes. Works for us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:09:39 GMT -5
I have never had a problem showing respect to men that I respect. But once a guy has indulged his inner Al Bundy with me forget it. It is impossible to respect a man after that.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 1, 2012 11:10:35 GMT -5
If it works for you, I won't condemn it. May you never come to an impasse on an issue where both of you feel so strongly about the issue that paper rock scissors doesn't cut it. Don't get me started on the portrayal of men by the media.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 11:13:49 GMT -5
Hate to break it to you, but they don't make it up out of thin air.
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Post by swamp on Jul 1, 2012 11:15:52 GMT -5
The Real Housewives shows, Jersey Shore and its ilk doesn't exactly portray women in a flattering light........l.
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