tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 21:06:50 GMT -5
Fine. Be that way if you want to. But just remember, I offered to help you go back. I *will* be that way, TYVM! Now say something else that's intelligent and insightful! Have you learned NOTHING about me through the years??!! I don't even do requests. I'm certainly not going to perform on command! (Unless it's something I want to do, of course....)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 21:14:42 GMT -5
I *will* be that way, TYVM! Now say something else that's intelligent and insightful! Have you learned NOTHING about me through the years??!! I don't even do requests. I'm certainly not going to perform on command! (Unless it's something I want to do, of course....) Okay now seriously, hop to it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 22:22:35 GMT -5
Funny, I'm trying to think of an example where DH and I have reached an impasse where under Christian philosophy he'd make the decision. We've never had one. We don't even do rock/paper/scissors or anything. I guess we must talk everything out and find a consensus. Or maybe we take turns letting the person who really wants something get it. BTW - we've been together for 13 years. I was wondering how often stuff like that comes up for normal couples. I would think that the man would be less motivated to find a consensus if he knows he can just pull rank when it suits him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2012 22:23:56 GMT -5
Ummmm, yes, no, and "sorry about that." I'll fix it though. Not being a moderator now I am freer to just post what interests me. I couldn't do that when I had to spend so much time and effort corralling children and miscreants. (There, mj. You can go back to disliking me now. All will be well in your world again....) ;D No, I think I'll just like you. It'll be hard at first, but I'll get through it. MJ and TG??? The end must be near!
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Jul 1, 2012 22:29:31 GMT -5
No, I think I'll just like you. It'll be hard at first, but I'll get through it. MJ and TG??? The end must be near! No kidding--the signs have been getting closer. You and Tina agreed (although that thread was deleted), RJ just agreed with Dark, and MJ wants to like TG. I didn't think I'd get that "Alice in Wonderland" feeling outside of work...
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2012 23:14:27 GMT -5
MJ and TG??? The end must be near! No kidding--the signs have been getting closer. You and Tina agreed (although that thread was deleted), RJ just agreed with Dark, and MJ wants to like TG. I didn't think I'd get that "Alice in Wonderland" feeling outside of work... Don't blame me! I tried to stop my part of it at least! Do you think I didn't know what the effects might be??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 4:03:22 GMT -5
First of all, disliking someone is more work than liking someone. Second of all, should I be insulted that you all are shocked that I can see the good in someone and forgive the past.... or flattered that you think my actions will help bring about the Zombiepocalypse?
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 2, 2012 4:11:39 GMT -5
I am thinking the Mayan thing, so maybe Mayan zombies.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Jul 2, 2012 4:26:05 GMT -5
Honestly, I just never saw it work in the way you explained it. Most of the men I know that do the whole I am the man and therefore I am the head of the household thing are totally and complete douchecanoes! I grew up in the church and have similar experiences. Generally the guys that advertised that viewpoint were also the guys least equipped to deal with it in a tactful and even-handed way. A couple of them seemed to have very negative views about women and I couldn't imagine marrying them. The few guys that I might have trusted with that kind of authority felt it was a cultural thing that influenced the writers of the scripture and didn't really apply in our culture. For it's day, the teaching about men and women was very liberating to women. But I have always viewed it in its cultural context, similar to the parts where Paul teaches the slaves to be good slaves so they are good examples for their masters. I don't believe that those passages in the Bible are an endorsement of slavery but they reflected what was going on in the current culture and how people related to each other. In the same way the passages about women reflect the culture of that time and how people used to relate. I don't really understand how people can throw out the slavery parts (which are obviously unacceptable) and then try to keep the male is the boss parts.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 2, 2012 5:41:49 GMT -5
Pink that is good to hear. I just haven't seen it work that way for the most part. My grandfather was a giant douche and would quote scripture to back up the crap he did and said. I was always so embarrassed to hear him "testify" in church and then go home and treat my grandmother like she was gum on his shoes. It wasn't just him. I saw it with other men in the community we lived in. It was a very redneck alpha male community and I nearly went stark raving mad living there. I have always been very strong willed and independent. I never dated the muscle head jock types. I never dated the alpha males or the guys looking for a traditional relationship. Heck...I didn't ever even planned on getting married because I didn't want a traditional relationship. So I am rambling now. I do respect your religious beliefs and I think everyone needs to choose what works for them. I know I personally would lose my mind if I married a guy who expected me to be submissive and fill a traditional role. To be fair, atheists, budhists, muslims, etc. all have their share of male douchecanoes. Just because your grandfather was a hypocritical douchecanoe doesn't mean all christians are. My husband is a Catholic and wouldn't dare treat me like that....then again, he didn't choose a woman who would accept that treatment.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 2, 2012 8:16:42 GMT -5
Funny, I'm trying to think of an example where DH and I have reached an impasse where under Christian philosophy he'd make the decision. We've never had one. We don't even do rock/paper/scissors or anything. I guess we must talk everything out and find a consensus. Or maybe we take turns letting the person who really wants something get it. BTW - we've been together for 13 years. I can't either. For the most part our rule is to let the person who thinks it's more important have their way. Truthfully in all the years we have been together it has only been a few times that we both felt so strongly about something that one of us didn't just give the other their way. It has worked for 28 years. I don't like to admit how long we've been together since it is pretty clear I am real old now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 8:26:18 GMT -5
I never said all Christian men were douchecanoes. I said that most of the men that were in the community that I was raised in were. As I mentioned above, I was raised in a very male dominated community. Yes my grandfather was a hypocritical asshat. But honestly it was a very small town (maybe 200 people) and most of the men in THAT town treated the women like that. It was just the way they were all raised. Thankfully my mother and aunts did not allow their husband's to treat them the way my grandfather treated my grandmother.
I have no problem with Christians or Christian men. I do have a problem with those who use scripture (no matter what scripture or religion) to dominate women.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 2, 2012 8:30:46 GMT -5
True Christian men do not dominate, nor do they try to dominate women.
This has been a most interesting thread. Obviously, I know next to nothing about men, having only been married to one who WAS a complete douchecanoe. Thanks to all who were so open and honest. I sure learned a thing or two.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 8:40:25 GMT -5
:)I deliberately let Virgil argue the religious aspect, even though my views are shaped by what I've learned in church. My opinion is unpopular enough here without having to defend my religion too. LOL I think shooby's summary of how its supposed to work for Christians was great. Thanks! Of course, being human beings, there is an obvious disconnect about how people are supposed to behave and how they actually do.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 2, 2012 8:58:00 GMT -5
I never said all Christian men were douchecanoes. I said that most of the men that were in the community that I was raised in were. As I mentioned above, I was raised in a very male dominated community. Yes my grandfather was a hypocritical asshat. But honestly it was a very small town (maybe 200 people) and most of the men in THAT town treated the women like that. It was just the way they were all raised. Thankfully my mother and aunts did not allow their husband's to treat them the way my grandfather treated my grandmother. I have no problem with Christians or Christian men. I do have a problem with those who use scripture (no matter what scripture or religion) to dominate women. I think it was more cultural because of the area you were raises in, versus it being a christian thing. My family is very religious and I don't see the men treating the wives like that at all. I have a few uncles that are alcoholics and are total douchebags but they aren't exactly the churchgoing type and would be douchebags even if they weren't raises Christian.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 2, 2012 9:14:34 GMT -5
a douchecanoe ia a douchecanoe, I dont care what other tag you want to put with it. I think its all learned behavior so it can be unlearned if its not tolerated That's what I was trying to say but you were more concise...they were douchecanoes because that it was they learned and the behavior was accepted in that community. Also, we are talking about different generations. Years ago, men were the "head of household" and they made the money and the rules. Things are different now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 9:23:03 GMT -5
Most of the men on my dad's side (including my dad) are all the "I'm the man" types but they are mostly douchecanoes. Other than bring home a paycheck, they do jack shit for the household - all the cooking, cleaning, bill-paying, and child rearing is the woman's job. I blame my grandmother - she catered to her boys' every whim and their father(s) weren't in the picture.
I have always known that if I were to be married/in a serious relationship, I would want a man who is willing to split the work. It doesn't have to be 50/50, but it at least has to be close.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 9:31:46 GMT -5
The traditional notions of "men's chores versus women's chores" were fine in olden times where there was so much work to be done on a daily basis that was a more equitable split. And, there is nothing in the Bible about men doing women's work or vice versa so sorry, the guys can't stand on that one. That is just something leftover more from our agricultural times and past. As for marriage today, we are "supposed" to love and care for our spouse. And, loving and caring means making sure we are both pulling our own weight. We have divided up our household duties, not out of any particular stereotypes but according to both of our likes and abilities. I am a good cook and i love cooking so i cook. DH doesn't mind doing laundry and grocery shopping so he does that stuff. He mows the lawn, i take care of landscaping, trimming and planting. We both do dishes cuz that is a constant thing. I do most of the mopping and dusting and he gets to do other stuff like vacuuming the basement and putting gas in the cars and all that. I haven't washed a load of laundry in months!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2012 9:50:48 GMT -5
And that works for you and you are both happy. The thing I don't ever want to get into is the idea that I have to work a job, because we all know SAHMS are lazy, then come home and work the second shift while some man decompresses.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 9:52:23 GMT -5
Who said Sahms were lazy?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 2, 2012 10:00:34 GMT -5
Some posters feel they are. Not me. It was a lot easier having a job than having kids and a job! Summers when I just had kids were much harder than when I had the job.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 2, 2012 10:01:48 GMT -5
As long a a man does this, life will be grand lol That would make me crazy....most of the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 10:07:29 GMT -5
Some posters feel they are. Not me. It was a lot easier having a job than having kids and a job! Summers when I just had kids were much harder than when I had the job. Who cares what people think? As for "other people", when they start paying my bills, they get to tell me how to run my life. If not, then it is none of their dang business!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 2, 2012 10:08:07 GMT -5
I know haw to keep peace in the house lol Leave?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 2, 2012 11:08:48 GMT -5
"Heres the problem with "fire starting time". I understand your need to be alone, to decompress, and relax, and fully suppeprt you doing it when needed. However, I also have the same need, and when you are engaging in fire starting time when I am attempting to clean up from dinner,go over homework, get the kids bathed, do some laundry, get stuff out for tomorrow, and referee the 1,000,000th fight between the Kia, are you disrespecting me and our relationship and frankly, I'm going to tell you, not ask you, to get off your lazy ass and do something."
Well, it all comes down to being sensative to your partner's needs and trying to find a balance. Yes, men can be oblivious to what needs to be done, but women can also be obsessive compulsive too. The truth of modern life is there never comes a point where everything is "done." If you wait until ALL the chores are done and EVERYTHING is done then you'll never relax. However, one could argue that if both spouses pitch in then the daily chores can get done sooner and everyone can relax. As I said, balance between your duties and your "fire staring time."
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 2, 2012 11:43:05 GMT -5
What can be put off from my list, other than laundry, but then it just likes up more and I'll do it tomorrow.
The point is, when you have kids, some things NEED to be done daily, like go over their homework and get the stuff out for school tomorrow. I also find I necessary to clean up from dinner because dirty dishes on the counter, food on the stove, and spilled food on the table can't be left to sit there otherwise it's disgusting. Baths are done every 2 or 3 days, but if the kids are stinky, I'm certainly not sending them to school that way.
If DH insists on staring at the TV while the kids fight and I'm trying to do all the stuff that needs to get done, I will yell at him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 11:50:17 GMT -5
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jul 2, 2012 14:44:12 GMT -5
Religion wise, I'm a Humanist. DH is a "bad Buddhist" and specifically a bad Theravada Buddhist. In our marriage, our religious beliefs don't matter, because as respect for other people goes, they align really closely. When it comes to marriage, religion, and gender roles, I think the most important thing is that they align, that the couple is operating out of the same paradigm and that that works for them. I know both people in RL and on this board who have the "husband is head of household/final decision maker" marriages, and it works for them. Both spouses are happy and feel loved and respected in their relationships. And as long as that works for them, I say more power to them. That would not work for me, which is why I am not in one of those relationships. My vows didn't even have a chance to say "obey" because the only "traditional" part of our vows came from a Native American tradition, not a European one. We promised to first and foremost forever be friends. We did this, because it works for US, not because it needs to work for anyone else.
DH and I are not going to meet anyone else's rules for what it means respect each other in a relationship. We violate Dark's rules becuase we do pick on each other and tease each other in public. We were friends before we started dating. We still hang out with the same group of friends from our early 20s. This is how our relationship has always worked. However, we can ask the other to stop teasing about a certain topic without any issues.
We are not going to meet WWBG's definition of respect because just reading one part of it made my blood boil. Per WWBG I need to ask DH to do something, not tell, and when I do ask, No, Later, or Whatever, apparently always have to be viable answers. And yet, I would also need to let DH take command and do exactly what he told me when he told me to do it. And to me that's not respect. I understand that in more traditional households that might work, but it doesn't fly in my relationship. Sometimes one person needs to be in charge. When that person tells the other person to do something, the other person does it. But who is in charge really depends on the task, who knows more about it, who is taking the risk (ie the person operating the power tool gets to give the commands), etc. DH has, more than once, asked me if he could buy a video game, not because I'm his mom and can tell him what to buy, but because I'm the one who keeps track of the accounts and actually knows off the top of my head if we have the money for it.
We also have a method for figuring out who is the final decision maker. Most of the time, it is whoever the issue is most important to, but there are some issues which are very important to both of us. If we can't come to a mutual decision, the final decision is that whoever says no wins. That's the easiest way to put it. It could also be said that if we can't come up with a mutual solution, we go with the solution of least risk.
I get that people sometimes need "staring at the fire" time, but I don't believe that need is exclusive to men. Women need time to decompress, too. How much time you need, or what actions help you decompress, are more a function of personality type than gender.
The most important way to show respect in a marriage- either to your husband or your wife, in my mind, is to acknowledge each other's strengths and admit your own weaknesses. And then work together to establish the rules of your relationship. If you both agree that those rules should come from a religion, then you're all set. If you don't agree on that, then you write your own rules instead of following someone else's. As long as both partners agree, it doesn't actually matter what rule set you use.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 2, 2012 15:00:50 GMT -5
I gotta say. That "firestarting time" is about the dumbest excuse for being lazy as any I've ever heard. I don't have kids - so please tell me if I'm wrong, but don't you know that's what you are in for when you sign up? Your "downtime" is kaput. Your life revolves around your children. Expecting to have children but not have to jump in to assist in their care and raising the minute you walk in the door is like joining the military and not expecting to have to handle weapons.
What if both parents need their firestarting time when they get home from work? Do the kids go hungry? Do they just get to beat the hell out of one another?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 2, 2012 15:04:39 GMT -5
DH insists on staring at the TV while the kids fight and I'm trying to do all the stuff that needs to get done
That's when you send them to go fight in front of the TV DH is trying to watch.
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