Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 29, 2012 18:30:42 GMT -5
OK YM and PB men. I need to understand and I think you can help. I've recovered from my ill-advised skimming of the Love&Respect book. In it and on some threads on EE its been said men would rather have respect than love. That to men at least some, respect might be the language of love instead of saying "I love you". So help me understand. What kinds of phrases and words make you feel respected and therefore loved and admired by your wife, SO, or someone you might want to date. In skimming the book I read words like respect, admire, and even that men want to feel you still like them even if you are seriously angry at them. I temporarily hate you OK. I don't like right now(even temporarily) not OK. So please rain on me some understanding. (In case I need a mood uplifter.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 29, 2012 18:54:10 GMT -5
Respect is as much a matter of what isn't said as of what is said. Women (not all women, but many) have a tendency not to be able to let certain issues go. Things like nagging, gossiping, consistently bringing up "you won't believe <dumb thing> DH did" at gatherings, agreeing to put a decision "on hold" and then becoming passive aggressive or reneging on the agreement completely. Also, playing the victim and/or bemoaning "but the Joneses got...", "but Mary's husband always..." tends to grate on men's nerves more than many women realize, especially if DW isn't particularly mindful of the many things DH has done for her. When it comes to making up, sometimes a nice gesture and "water under the bridge"—as in "it's over; let's forget about it; let's get back to living"—is often an acceptable resolution, rather than "let's go over what happened and talk about how we feel". At least I know I much prefer the former over the latter. Have a good weekend.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 29, 2012 19:04:05 GMT -5
I'm a woman so I don't know if my response counts. ;D
That said, I have a few rules with myself about DH...mostly under the guise of the Golden Rule: - I never complain about him to other people unless the complaint is so light hearted he'd laugh if he heard me say it - I listen to him and value his input on issues - I very rarely criticize him, but if I do it make it constructive (ie "I don't know if that shirt necessarily looks best with those pants. How about the blue one instead - it looks so great with your eyes.")
There are a zillion others, but you get the drift. I treat him the way I want to be treated by him.
FWIW, I don't know that love/respect are the same thing. There are many people in my life that I respect, but only one that I'm in love with. Perhaps your question more has to do with the idea that love is not an emotion, but a verb. If you love someone, ACT lovingly towards them. If you say you love someone but you act like a nag or are constantly talking negatively about him to your girlfriends, I question if you truly love him.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 29, 2012 19:12:44 GMT -5
Respect is as much a matter of what isn't said as of what is said. Women (not all women, but many) have a tendency not to be able to let certain issues go. This can be me for certain things.Things like nagging, gossiping, consistently bringing up "you won't believe <dumb thing> DH did" at gatherings, That's generally not an issue for me.agreeing to put a decision "on hold" and then becoming passive aggressive or reneging on the agreement completely. I've had men be passive aggressive with me especially XH which is why not resolving something bugs me.Also, playing the victim and/or bemoaning "but the Joneses got...", "but Mary's husband always..." tends to grate on men's nerves more than many women realize, especially if DW isn't particularly mindful of the many things DH has done for her. Again not really an issue for me.When it comes to making up, sometimes a nice gesture and "water under the bridge"—as in "it's over; let's forget about it; let's get back to living"—is often an acceptable resolution, rather than "let's go over what happened and talk about how we feel". This I probably need to understand. As a woman and a problem solver to not solve a significant problem or way of dealing with something seems stupid and counterproductive. Obviously if its something not that important or unlikely to be repeated I can be convinced to drop it. If you treated me like shit because you didn't understand where I was coming from I feel disrespected and totally unloved.At least I know I much prefer the former over the latter. Have a good weekend. Thanks for posting! I appreciate your manly wisdom.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 29, 2012 19:24:59 GMT -5
I'm a woman so I don't know if my response counts. ;D That said, I have a few rules with myself about DH...mostly under the guise of the Golden Rule: - I never complain about him to other people unless the complaint is so light hearted he'd laugh if he heard me say it - I listen to him and value his input on issues - I very rarely criticize him, but if I do it make it constructive (ie "I don't know if that shirt necessarily looks best with those pants. How about the blue one instead - it looks so great with your eyes.") There are a zillion others, but you get the drift. I treat him the way I want to be treated by him. FWIW, I don't know that love/respect are the same thing. There are many people in my life that I respect, but only one that I'm in love with. Perhaps your question more has to do with the idea that love is not an emotion, but a verb. If you love someone, ACT lovingly towards them. If you say you love someone but you act like a nag or are constantly talking negatively about him to your girlfriends, I question if you truly love him. Skinny, your response counts its just as a woman like myself we look at this differently. I'm pretty close to your views on the first paragraph. With my first employer I noticed guys would defend my Ex if I did make the mistake to complain about his behavior. After that I got it. I know I respect male coworkers more that say only good things about their wives/SOs/dates or at most the occasional bad thing. It makes you feel this person would treat you equally as well and that's what my male co-workers I think were trying to get in my head more than twenty years ago. I do talk to people sometimes to understand what the man in my life is doing but I discuss it as seeking understanding. I can't think of anything a man in my life has done that I thought was stupid and I brought it up to any other person besides us. I try to treat it lightly as we all do silly things sometimes and some things I realize its important for them to do it or do it their way so I go with it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 29, 2012 22:34:58 GMT -5
That's a tough thing to put into words. Especially after a great meal and a few beers.
Alright, let's do this.
First off actions mean more to me than words. I don't want to hear that you respect me, I want you to show that you respect me, by not treating me like a kid, clown, or doofus. Even if I'm kind of acting like one. Private things should remain that way. All your girlfriends don't need to know about the silly things I do to cheer you up after you've had a rough day. Yes, you might be telling the story to illustrate how I'm willing to be a goofball to cheer you up and it's sweet, but in public I don't want to be known as your goofball husband. I also don't want you bitching, venting, or whatever with everybody. In public we're a strong united unit. If you want to tell somebody about how I'm apparently too stupid to get my socks into the hamper and insist on tossing them on the floor next to the hamper like a headstrong five year old, call your mother. She's my mother in law, so doesn't like me much by default, so she's the only person you get to whine about my annoying traits too.
Don't commit both of us to social obligations without at least asking me about it beforehand. Again, you're not my mom. You don't get to dictate what I should be doing and when. Ask me to do things, don't tell me to do things. On issues where we disagree you don't have to take my side or defer to my opinion, but you have to at least listen to it. Even if you think it's totally stupid. That's a whole enjoyable conversation you can have with the mother in law who doesn't think I'm good enough for you in the first place. Between us, we listen too and respect each other's opinions, and with our friends we discuss the mutual decision we agreed too, not vent about how I'm impossible, an idiot, or whatever.
Our sex life is private period. Contrary to popular belief guys rarely talk about their current sex life, at least when they're in serious relationships. We might spend two hours discussing which celebrity we'd rather get a BJ from, but nobody mentions how good/bad their wife is at that particular task. I want the same courtesy.
I'm sure there's more but I have to take the dog for a walk. I'll probably come back and post more later.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 29, 2012 23:18:05 GMT -5
Oh, and no snooping on your spouses virtual life. Since I don't criticize you with my friends, vent to people we know, etc., semi anonymous message boards are the only place I can come whine. Reading it isn't fair. I don't listen to your phone calls with your mom where you're supposed to be talking about what a jackass I am. Or at least not often.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2012 23:27:34 GMT -5
3 people on this forum will get this reference.. "So check it out, it's like this: If I lose, winner takes my car clean and clear. But if I win, I take the cash, and I take the respect!" Love without respect doesn't work in the long run.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 30, 2012 3:01:34 GMT -5
I am very hesitant to respond here, because I do not believe I am typical. I know who and what I am, and am not dependent on anyone else for validation or respect. I used to say that there were only two people in the world whose opinion mattered to me. The first is me, because no matter what happens in life I have to live with me. The second was my wife, because I made a commitment to her. Well, now there is only me.
By far the best way to show respect is to avoid doing things that show disrespect. That all being said:
Words are easy, and there aren't any that will make me feel respected. Respect is demonstrated, not stated. The most important for me is that you talk TO me, and WITH me, and that you tell me the truth when you do it. Every single time. There is no excuse for lying. Ever. I can handle anything as long as I know the truth about it. You may have the right to live your life however you want, but I have the right to make my decisions based on a complete understanding of all the factors involved.
Second, if you want to know what I think or how I feel, ask me. I'll tell you. I am secure enough that I have no need to play games, and I won't. Do not assume you know what I think. And never, ever, TELL me what I think. You may think you know, but unless we've talked the only one who truly does is me. And when we do talk, believe what I tell you.
There are many small ways to show respect. Be thoughtful, and considerate. Show me that I matter to you. If you know something really bugs me, don't do it. Give me your best effort. All the time. I'll give you mine, because I've chosen you and you deserve it. Well, so do I. And if you can't for whatever reason, let me know. I'll understand. Don't embarrass me, either because of things I do or through things you do. Don't give me reason to think I was wrong for choosing you. That is one of the biggest decisions I will ever make, and I need to know it was right. That knowledge is what will get me through hard times.
There is likely more, but those are big ones for me.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 30, 2012 7:29:31 GMT -5
3 people on this forum will get this reference.. "So check it out, it's like this: If I lose, winner takes my car clean and clear. But if I win, I take the cash, and I take the respect!" One of the drift movies... gotta be. Those are awesome to just watch with the sound off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 7:33:37 GMT -5
3 people on this forum will get this reference.. "So check it out, it's like this: If I lose, winner takes my car clean and clear. But if I win, I take the cash, and I take the respect!" One of the drift movies... gotta be. Those are awesome to just watch with the sound off. Vin Diesel and Paul Walker....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 30, 2012 7:37:21 GMT -5
On the occasions I vent about DF, I tend to come here first and get feedback on whether it's valid or not. Even when my mother was alive, she wasn't the person I'd go to for any help or advice. I find by reading these boards, it makes me appreciate what I have so much more. I wish his EX would read these forums and realize how lucky she is. She got the great years, a pissload of money, and doesn't have to deal with his declining years but she still calls him at 4 am waking us all up because she is sad the marriage is over. He finally told her the relationship had been over for years, she just woke up to that fact before he did, and it's too bad her boyfriend dumped her but to stop calling us, period. And he's going golfing. Gotta love that man!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jun 30, 2012 8:09:35 GMT -5
I agree that respect is shown through actions.
I like what Dark said about "asking" vs" telling". And let me clarify that "asking" means much more than just delivering an order but in the form of a question. It only counts if I'm actually free to answer how I feel, and that said answer ends the issue. If one of the answers is clearly the "wrong" answer, and if I give the wrong answer, I'll get crap about it, I do not feel respected. I don't mind additional discussion. But when I've made up my mind, I don't want to continue arguing, or be worn down, or have her be difficult later because she didn't get what she wanted earlier.
I feel respected when DW lets me be the man without having to have some pissing contest, or when she responds to me taking charge by dragging her feet on absolutely everything. Some things need to be done. I'm sorry its not as much fun as a lazy sunday, but it has to get done.
I think a big part of respect is also SUPPORT. I feel respected when people actually DO their part without having to make it miserable for everyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 8:35:13 GMT -5
This is an excellent thread. I really do like to hear the male perspective. Keep it coming guys!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 30, 2012 9:06:01 GMT -5
I agree.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 30, 2012 9:14:26 GMT -5
Thanks Dark and TG for your answers. I'm unusual too so I hoped both of you would respond. MMC I've only seen one of the Fast and Furious movies but I don't entirely understand the quote or the mindset. If I knew my car could win I wouldn't need to lose it just so other people would know.
WWBG Thanks for your comments as well. I'm not very gender oriented so I don't get or understand what "being the man" means to you in that context. Can you try to explain to me who understands things more from a 'everyone deserves to be treated well irregardless of gender' point of view?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 9:31:02 GMT -5
WWBG I am with Optimist...what does "being the man" mean to you? I have heard this a lot from people and I really do not get what it means.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 10:39:17 GMT -5
WWBG I am with Optimist...what does "being the man" mean to you? I have heard this a lot from people and I really do not get what it means. I know you didn't ask me, but I'm one of those people that talk about men "being the man". For me, in a relationship context it usually means being a leader. NOT a dictator though.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 30, 2012 10:40:20 GMT -5
Things like this are hard to explain.
Basically, as I see it, men don't want to feel nagged or hounded. It's like a thousand little gnats swarming you. In observations, I often see women nag men, even when her intentions are good (i.e. tell him to get some rest when he's sick) their tone and way of doing it is harsh and demanding. Instead of demanding your man will go to bed early, it's far more productive to be encouraging. Contrary to what some may think, men don't like being treated like kids. Men (like women) also like to feel their opinion is valued and they're involved in the decision making process.
Most men I know, also need what some call "fire staring time." Time to relax and veg out. The activity varies, watching TV, playing video games, fishing. Respecting and letting your man have a reasonable amount of fire staring time really goes a long way to help you guy's mental health.
I also agree with Ima angel, most men want to be a leader in their relationships, but that's excuse to be a dictator.
Respect isn't about being subserviant or even about saying the right things. It's about actions and valuing your man's opinion and the fact that he's a competent adult.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 11:10:13 GMT -5
The problem for good guys that want legitimate, well earned respect is that the slobs in your brotherhood have classified any request from a woman as nagging. And you all classify any request to do something you don't like to do as nagging. I hear the phrase "don't nag me" as "I'm not going to do it and I am going use the term nag to make you back off"
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 30, 2012 11:17:56 GMT -5
Good point, Later. Do men "nag"? You never seem to hear that term applied to them, but at least in my relationship, DH gives as good as he gets
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 30, 2012 11:44:56 GMT -5
Interesting question. I don't think asking someone to do something is nagging. I don't know about other guys, but if someone asks me "hey phenoix, can you please take out the trash?" I'd say "okay" and do it without resentment.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 30, 2012 11:59:32 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments Phoenix. I agree with you on that last sentence. If I'm interested in a man as a friend, potential lover, or he's my SO or husband there are many areas I value his opinion in and he's obviously a competent adult or he'd be an aquaintance at best.
I think "being a man" and being a leader depends on the man himself which is why I'm hoping to hear opinions of those who use those phrases. There are many kinds of leadership and some men want to be in charge of the relationship(whatever that means?!) all the time and others are willing to change hats with their partner based on circumstance.
I was born the eldest of three so I have been groomed to be a leader and I've done it occasionally in other capacities. I enjoy doing it but I also enjoy being able to hand off to my partner totally if needed and let them run the show. I personally wouldn't be happy being always in charge or never in charge in a relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 12:28:27 GMT -5
Interesting question. I don't think asking someone to do something is nagging. I don't know about other guys, but if someone asks me "hey phenoix, can you please take out the trash?" I'd say "okay" and do it without resentment. Yes, but then what if I get the "I'll do it later" response? And then later never comes, so I ask again - same response, same non-action. What if asking once wasn't enough? If I ask DH to take out the garbage, how many days have to pass until I'm out of the "nagging zone"?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 13:26:02 GMT -5
May I ask those who believe that men should be the leader...why? Why is it "being the man" to be the leader? Is it a biblical thing?
I honestly do not understand why people believe that the man is the leader and that it is disrespectful to not "allow" them to "be the man." I am not trying to be argumentative at all. I just honestly don't understand it. I know I have been told it before by female cousins in my family that I need to be more submissive to my husband and allow him to "be the man" because that is what it says in the bible. I am not religious so I just do not see roles the same way I guess.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 30, 2012 13:58:25 GMT -5
I think that "being the man" refers to the traditional and historical nature in most societies of the man being the leader and head of the household or family unit. Men have been expected to be the providers and the decision-makers almost throughout time. Part of it was likely the physical advantages of being generally bigger and stronger, which were then carried over to an assumption that men were mentally more capable as well. And it is certainly true that almost exclusively it was men in positions of wealth and power. Whether you ascribe to it as a biblical holding or not is almost immaterial. It just "was" for centuries (again, in most societies.) Women did not even get the right to vote in this country until less than a hundred years ago.
I personally don't have a lot of respect for the idea. I believe that it should be a partnership. Basically equal, but perhaps with each partner doing more in areas in which they are better. Secure men are not threatened by intelligent or strong women. They celebrate them.
I need a strong woman. I need someone who has their own ideas and will argue them. I need an equal. I could never respect anyone I could dominate. And if you can't respect, you can't love. Not as a partner.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 14:11:48 GMT -5
Tallguy, that is just about the sexiest thing I have ever read.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2012 14:12:21 GMT -5
I get that it was that way for centuries, I guess I am just of a totally different mindset. I really am not attracted at all to the "beat my chest hear me roar" Alpha males. I want a partner. I am glad that Goose respects me for the strong woman that I am.
TG I appreciate your explanation. I would totally run away with you if I wasn't already married.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 30, 2012 14:20:31 GMT -5
Things like this are hard to explain. Basically, as I see it, men don't want to feel nagged or hounded. It's like a thousand little gnats swarming you. In observations, I often see women nag men, even when her intentions are good (i.e. tell him to get some rest when he's sick) their tone and way of doing it is harsh and demanding. Instead of demanding your man will go to bed early, it's far more productive to be encouraging. Contrary to what some may think, men don't like being treated like kids. Men (like women) also like to feel their opinion is valued and they're involved in the decision making process. Most men I know, also need what some call "fire staring time." Time to relax and veg out. The activity varies, watching TV, playing video games, fishing. Respecting and letting your man have a reasonable amount of fire staring time really goes a long way to help you guy's mental health. I also agree with Ima angel, most men want to be a leader in their relationships, but that's excuse to be a dictator. Respect isn't about being subserviant or even about saying the right things. It's about actions and valuing your man's opinion and the fact that he's a competent adult. Heres the problem with "fire starting time". I understand your need to be alone, to decompress, and relax, and fully suppeprt you doing it when needed. However, I also have the same need, and when you are engaging in fire starting time when I am attempting to clean up from dinner,go over homework, get the kids bathed, do some laundry, get stuff out for tomorrow, and referee the 1,000,000th fight between the Kia, are you disrespecting me and our relationship and frankly, I'm going to tell you, not ask you, to get off your lazy ass and do something. And I don't mean you, I am referring to a different man I happen to be married to.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 30, 2012 14:22:01 GMT -5
I get that it was that way for centuries, I guess I am just of a totally different mindset. I really am not attracted at all to the "beat my chest hear me roar" Alpha males. I want a partner. I am glad that Goose respects me for the strong woman that I am. TG I appreciate your explanation. I would totally run away with you if I wasn't already married. I don't really understand the "be the man" thing. It's not like I insist my husband pee sitting down.
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