zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 13:29:28 GMT -5
MM, I'm afraid you are right. I'm sure she feels that he is less than thrilled with her and only married her because he couldn't weasel out of it. Heck, maybe she felt the same way, who knows? I'm glad DF is someone I can rely on. Never had that before.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2012 13:29:56 GMT -5
"what she would bring on herself" is pretty violent language. Meh, it just sounds violent because it was translated from Klingon. I'll have to ask DH the translation.......................
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 13:30:02 GMT -5
...:::"I'm sorry about your grandmother. And I'm sorry that your wife isn't willing to support you at her funeral. And I'm sorry your grief has become a bargaining chip.":::... I'm sorry you have an agenda. I'm sorry you lack reading comprehension skills. If you'd read clearly you'd seen that there WAS NO FIGHT or ill will. It was not important to me to have DW at this funeral. Yeah I could have made her go (or asked her in such a way that she knew she couldn't say no) but I gave her this one. No, I followed. Your wife doesn't like funerals so you told her she didn't need to go to your grandmother's funeral, but attendance at select other events would be mandatory. No one likes funerals. If your wife has some sort of personal trauma, and was accidentally trapped for a time in her great uncle's coffin, then I am sorry for her trauma. Absent some great story you haven't shared with us, I assume she is just like everyone else who has faced a loss and is reminded of that grief when she attends another funeral. But she may have some sort of trauma we don't know about. I believe there are a great many things that you don't tell us about your wife, otherwise you wouldn't be with her. I have to trust there is something wonderful there to make your various grievances "worth it." What I was saying is I'm sorry she didn't insist upon going anyway. I'm sorry she accepted your "out." I have a very vivid memory of standing by myself at my grandfather's burial. Because every other adult was standing with, and being supported by, their spouses. I was no more than 1 foot away from nearly 2 dozen people who loved me, yet I felt very alone. I would not wish that on someone else. I very sincerely hope that at whatever moment you find difficult with your grandmother's passing, there is someone standing with their arm around you in that moment, whether or not it is your wife. I'm going to ignore the fact that you were so condescending about my reading comprehension skills because you are grieving. I will say that generally I don't appreciate it when people question my intelligence. A couple of posters have made that mistake, and I typically enjoy a couple of weeks pointing out every grammar, spelling, and comprehension mistake they make on these boards. We all have faults - I own mine. Stupidity isn't one of them. But passive aggression is.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 13:31:14 GMT -5
I'm lucky enough that my only issue is trying to make him feel more loved. Seems like since he never got it, the more I give the more he needs. It's kind of exhausting.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 13:32:22 GMT -5
Crafty. how very NORMAL of you!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2012 13:32:53 GMT -5
...:::"I'm sorry about your grandmother. And I'm sorry that your wife isn't willing to support you at her funeral. And I'm sorry your grief has become a bargaining chip.":::... I'm sorry you have an agenda. I'm sorry you lack reading comprehension skills. If you'd read clearly you'd seen that there WAS NO FIGHT or ill will. It was not important to me to have DW at this funeral. Yeah I could have made her go (or asked her in such a way that she knew she couldn't say no) but I gave her this one. No, I followed. Your wife doesn't like funerals so you told her she didn't need to go to your grandmother's funeral, but attendance at select other events would be mandatory. No one likes funerals. If your wife has some sort of personal trauma, and was accidentally trapped for a time in her great uncle's coffin, then I am sorry for her trauma. Absent some great story you haven't shared with us, I assume she is just like everyone else who has faced a loss and is reminded of that grief when she attends another funeral. But she may have some sort of trauma we don't know about. I believe there are a great many things that you don't tell us about your wife, otherwise you wouldn't be with her. I have to trust there is something wonderful there to make your various grievances "worth it." What I was saying is I'm sorry she didn't insist upon going anyway. I'm sorry she accepted your "out." I have a very vivid memory of standing by myself at my grandfather's burial. Because every other adult was standing with, and being supported by, their spouses. I was no more than 1 foot away from nearly 2 dozen people who loved me, yet I felt very alone. I would not wish that on someone else. I very sincerely hope that at whatever moment you find difficult with your grandmother's passing, there is someone standing with their arm around you in that moment, whether or not it is your wife. I'm going to ignore the fact that you were so condescending about my reading comprehension skills because you are grieving. I will say that generally I don't appreciate it when people question my intelligence. A couple of posters have made that mistake, and I typically enjoy a couple of weeks pointing out every grammar, spelling, and comprehension mistake they make on these boards. We all have faults - I own mine. Stupidity isn't one of them. But passive aggression is. does anyone actually like going to funerals? I've never met anyone who was excited to go to one...............
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 13:33:53 GMT -5
You'd be surprised. Eerily so.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 5, 2012 13:33:57 GMT -5
Shunning by his entire family. Honor beating after the funeral?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 5, 2012 13:34:42 GMT -5
I know that the intent may be good, but it really does come across as "what you believe is wrong". People rarely respond well to those types of assertions. Well, my intent isn't all happy and shiny to be honest. I'm not interested in getting a good reaction from people, for the most part. But it is extremely important to me that I NOT smile and nod and say "whatever you believe is fine, as long as it works for you" if I genuinely believe a certain belief to be causing harm to others. Getting a "good reaction" from whoever holds that belief is kinda beside the point. The point is not to stand by and let an evil outlook perpetuate without at least challenging it. There IS a difference between calling out beliefs that harm others, and arguing people's beliefs just to argue them. The latter, I do only by invitation. In other words, I don't go around constantly bugging my Christian friends about the finer points of debatable doctrine (but sometimes these discussions are interesting when we both WANT to have them and understand going in that we're not going to change each other's mind and we still respect each other, we're just having a conversation). But call out the problem of patriarchy as it relates to the Christian religion? Yes, absolutely, every time it comes up (at least online - in real life, it depends who I'm talking to and how well I know them). Because I believe that belief has caused, and continues to cause GREAT harm. For the most part, I think people agree or disagree on whether it's okay to call out someone else's harmful belief based on agreement or disagreement with what is a "harmful" belief. I'm pretty sure no one here would have a problem with it if I told someone who believed that black people were naturally not as smart as white people that his belief was "wrong," for example. Because we can pretty much all agree that is a harmful belief that hurts people. "what she would bring on herself" is pretty violent language.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 13:36:20 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 13:42:29 GMT -5
MM!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 13:43:18 GMT -5
okay, Firebird. I can't say that I disagree with your main argument "against" Christianity, but I will say that I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what you and others have done here. I'm not trying to pick on you (although it may look that way), I'm trying to let you know how it may look/sound from the other side.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 5, 2012 13:46:57 GMT -5
I can't say that I disagree with your main argument "against" ChristianityOh, this isn't even CLOSE to my main argument "against" Christianity. That's a WHOLE different discussion The patriarchy is hardly limited to the Christian religion. Virgil just provided us with (for me) a fairly painful reminder that it's still extremely prevalent among Christians. The problem of patriarchy, though, is much more extensive than that. And I don't think you're trying to pick on me. I understand where you're coming from, believe it or not. The problem is that I never would have had reason to question or challenge some of my worst beliefs if people hadn't helped me understand at some point how harmful they were. I did not enjoy those moments, I seriously resented the people who pointed out the problems. As it happens, today I'm grateful that they had the balls to call out my harmful beliefs - but that gratitude wasn't really the point for them either. They were going to call out my harmful beliefs whether I came around or not, simply because they were harmful.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 5, 2012 14:04:53 GMT -5
tsk, tsk. Firebird is going to hell.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:07:08 GMT -5
most of us will be there, so we'll save her a spot.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 5, 2012 14:11:31 GMT -5
No you won't. I've read you, MJ. While we don't always agree...you are a good person. That's what's important. You seem to me the kind of person that would stop to help their worst enemy if that person were truly in need. That type of person will enjoy the rewards of choosing the more difficult way when the more difficult way is the right way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:12:45 GMT -5
My reward will be decomposing to help plants grow. And that is all I need.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 5, 2012 14:13:15 GMT -5
LOL!! We should all aspire to the good of what comes after!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:18:44 GMT -5
My reward will be decomposing to help plants grow. And that is all I need. so you're forgoing the casket?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:21:17 GMT -5
I don't know what I'm going to do, actually. All the cemeteries around here are affiliated with a church AFAIK.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:31:55 GMT -5
Imma be fish food!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 5, 2012 14:32:41 GMT -5
tsk, tsk. Firebird is going to hell. See you there? Meet by the hot tub?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 5, 2012 14:35:50 GMT -5
Anway, I'm sure you now all think I'm some cheuvanistic pig who wants to go out and dominate women Phoenix, I know we've moved on but I wanted to address this. I don't think you're a chauvinist who wants to control women, but if I'm honest, I do think you've absorbed a lot of the condescension which is part and parcel to the paternalism view you hold. I am automatically suspicious of views that people hold which strongly favor them. Generally, that's not a coincidence. And naturally, people don't like to have this pointed out to them. That's the vibe I'm getting from you. It doesn't make you a chauvinist, it doesn't make you a wannabe dictator, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you hold a worldview which greatly privileges your gender. You are automatically suspicious of views that favor them. Fair enough. You may not believe me, but truthfully I"m not really "into" the belief that a man has to be obeyed in a marriage. I really do have a hard time accepting it. HOWEVER, I do firmly believe in God and I believe that the bible is his word. I can't pick and choose what parts of the bible I believe in and what parts I don't. It'a all 100% truth or none of it is. As I said, you may not believe me and think I support it because I happen to be favored by it, but that's not the case. In fact, I'm pretty laid back and prefer someone else take charge, and the fact that I'm told I need to be a leader and "obeyed" actually cuases me stress.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2012 14:39:21 GMT -5
Anway, I'm sure you now all think I'm some cheuvanistic pig who wants to go out and dominate women Phoenix, I know we've moved on but I wanted to address this. I don't think you're a chauvinist who wants to control women, but if I'm honest, I do think you've absorbed a lot of the condescension which is part and parcel to the paternalism view you hold. I am automatically suspicious of views that people hold which strongly favor them. Generally, that's not a coincidence. And naturally, people don't like to have this pointed out to them. That's the vibe I'm getting from you. It doesn't make you a chauvinist, it doesn't make you a wannabe dictator, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you hold a worldview which greatly privileges your gender. I can't pick and choose what parts of the bible I believe in and what parts I don't. sure you can. You're just not thinking outside the box! But really, no one but the people who wrote it know the true interpretation, so people adapt and translate and analyze it like any piece of notable literature. Because that's just what the Bible is - literature written by fallable human beings.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 5, 2012 14:41:53 GMT -5
I would also like to say I think an undue focus is placed on this particular aspect of Christianity. I don't think you're committing a sin if you structure your marriage differently, and even if it is it's not an unforgiveable sin. Like many parts, many people focus on the blade of grass and not on the forest and the big message.
I feel the same way about gays and the bible. People (both atheists and believers) focus WAAAAY to much on it. I never understood why being gay is set apart from other sins that we all commit as particularly bad. And one of the key messages is to "judge not lest ye be judged" and "let you who have never sinned cast the first stone". So I find it confusing why so many christians make such a big deal of it when we're specifically told not to.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 14:48:51 GMT -5
You don't have to be buried in a casket and you don't have to be burned. You can choose to be buried simply wrapped in a sheet and in the ground. Some places even allow you to be buried in forests. Not that funeral homes are going to tell you that. I'm going to be a crispy critter and then buried with DF, that's my compromise.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2012 14:49:48 GMT -5
Funny enough, I always thought David and Jonathon were gay. Remember the part that says his love was greater than what women gave him?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 5, 2012 14:56:12 GMT -5
OK, the 30 replies of page 15 have been digested. Before I attempt to respond, let me remind you of a few things. We SOLVED our financial problems. DW is no longer as "materialistic", or as consumption driven as she once was. Those of you who were around long enough to remember me from when we had money problems too can probably attest to improvement.
It seems the topic we are debating on this page is my harsh use of "obey" in extreme situations (extreme = death, it seems). So most replies will be centered around that. Other tangents may get their own posts.
...:::"I essentially see his point. In his mind he has given way on so many things he holds dear, and unless my partner had some very good points about my family-theres no way I would tolerate them not showing up to family functions-that just comes with the territory, there would be some things I just wouldn't budge on.":::...
Thank you zibazinski. I was not delicate, but I'm happy to see there is agreement among some people.
Please understand, when DW lost someone very very VERY important to her, I was there. I STFU and obeyed. I didn't question, I didn't obstruct. Whatever she needed, I was there. I say this not to create a "you owe me" stance, but rather to re-emphasize the point that there are times when you just need to let the other person call all the shots. I pointed out a few things she didn't think of (packing properly, giving notice at work) but I didn't do so in an obstructive way.
I see that "obey" is a very emotionally charged word. Pursuant to the following:
...:::"I hope the use of the word "obey" was just a mistake and you really wantetd o say "do what I asked" because "STFU and obey" when referring to a spouse is just sad and wrong in so many ways.":::...
I guess if you really really really really REALLY want to, you are free to see "obey" as "do what I asked without question, incident, aggression, or obstruction". I knew the word would get a rise out of some people. Nevertheless, it really is the same thing. If it is SO important to use a different word, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
She is not a smoker. She is not a smoker. She is not a smoker. She has never been a smoker.. Do not let hypothetical examples become "fact".
...:::"I was going to dissect some of his more offensive statements but the thing that sprang to mind was this: say your DF has been a smoker the entire time you dated her. You knew she smoked when you met her and you continued to see her in spite of that. At some point YOU decide that you want her to quit. However, she's still OK with smoking.":::...
So "smoking" in this case represents an attitude. OK, what a great analogy! Because there are places where it is 100% inappropriate to smoke, and if the smoker is stupid enough to light up, he/she is going to be eating that cigarette. Continuing your analogy, my "STFU and obey" would be represented by locations like an airport, or a hospital. So thank you for strengthening my point.
I am already prejudiced against Landmark forum. I'm sorry, but I'll be honest. I could look into similar products, but I have no interest in that one.
Did I mention that DW IS NOT A SMOKER?
OK, page 16. Please give me some time to catch up. There is but one of me, thank goodness.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 5, 2012 15:01:00 GMT -5
Exactly.
Especially when the Bible does not speak out against homosexuals, but rather the practice of homosexuality.
It's basically the easiest way for people to throw stones. Ignore the millions of good things and focus solely on those one or two things a person finds abhorrent. It's basically the same with any argument or subject one can think of to discuss. Politics, abortion, etc. I would guess we all do it to some extent.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 5, 2012 15:05:59 GMT -5
This is sort of the opposite of what you stated in an earlier post. In an eariler post, you stated something along the lines of "I hate to be the one who gives in first because I can't trust that she will remember she owes me one." Not your exact words, but it was what you were saying. It appears to me that you do, indeed, "keep score" and that the "you owe me" aspect IS quite important to you. I'm not criticizing you - just attempting to clarify which way it is you really feel.
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