Raising kids with religion: Yes or no?

[Deleted]

As for the other- you stating that other beliefs are NOT equal to your own because YOU do not believe them is far, far more intolerant than anything I've said

No it's not. They are completely opposite beliefs and one of us is wrong. I acknowledge that I think you are wrong. You don't own up to accusing me of being wrong.

[Tired Tess]

I'm a non practicing Catholic and DH is a "pagan baby".

He was an altar boy (when knowing Latin was necessary) but has walked away from the church.

My children were baptized, made confession and communion. I'm glad they did this. We do not go to church but when an opportunity presents itself I talk to them about the traditions, about the similarities, and the good works done by the church.

There has been enough bad news about the church to keep us talking for a looong time.

[Deleted]

Later- this might shock you, but I'd probably be pleased if my kids ended up religious. I don't have a major leaning either way, but if they wind up religious without me and DH pushing them into it, there's an excellent chance that it's something they've chosen for themselves and feel very strongly about, which would be great!

LOL Oh you have a major leaning.

[Deleted]

But, i think most people worship at the church of their kids' sports leagues. That seems to be where everyone is.

Hmmm.. I've heard this said before from others in my area. Some believe Sunday is the only day or the main day of the week reserved for worship.. Others hold everyday the same (as unto the Lord) and make choice as to which day they and their family will gather with others for worship? There is grace factored into this..

I have a girlfriend who was under such condemnation because her son's baseball games fell on Sunday's during its season. She and her family instead attended the mid-week worship.. When she realized her mid-week attendance was not a sin, she and her family were able to worship freely again.

So, yes, Moxie, I am sure many worshipers may very well be on sports fields on any designated worship day.. My hope is, that at least one day of the week those swinging bats and sliding into first base are in collective worship with the saints..

[Firebird]

May 15, 2012 20:20:55 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

As for the other- you stating that other beliefs are NOT equal to your own because YOU do not believe them is far, far more intolerant than anything I've said

No it's not. They are completely opposite beliefs and one of us is wrong. I acknowledge that I think you are wrong. You don't own up to accusing me of being wrong.

How am I not owning up to it? I do think you are wrong, but not because of your religious beliefs. That has nothing to do with it. I think ALL indoctrination is wrong no matter what belief is being imparted.

I'm judging you for an action that I believe to be hurtful in certain circumstances based on my own experience. You are judging me for my BELIEF that this action is wrong. Two very, VERY different things. I'm sorry you can't see that.

[Firebird]

May 15, 2012 20:23:41 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Later- this might shock you, but I'd probably be pleased if my kids ended up religious. I don't have a major leaning either way, but if they wind up religious without me and DH pushing them into it, there's an excellent chance that it's something they've chosen for themselves and feel very strongly about, which would be great!

LOL Oh you have a major leaning.

Thanks for telling me how I FEEL about a subject. That's something I would never be able to work out for myself without your help.

Actually, I do NOT have a major leaning. But thanks for telling me I'm wrong.

[Deleted]

How am I not owning up to it? I do think you are wrong, but not because of your religious beliefs. That has nothing to do with it. I think ALL indoctrination is wrong no matter what belief is being imparted.

I'm judging you for an action that I believe to be hurtful in certain circumstances based on my own experience. You are judging me for my BELIEF that this action is wrong. Two very, VERY different things. I'm sorry you can't see that.

I see that you are justifying your behaviour. But you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.

[Deleted]

Firebird when someone says you will go to hell if you don't believe in Christ they are not personally sending you there. They are telling you the repurcussions of your choice. It is not indoctrination to say 2+2=4. Teaching the truth and saying this is true and the other isn't is not indoctrination.

[Firebird]

I... just... HUH?

Nothing you write makes any sense to me. I'm doing my best to engage you and explain where I'm coming from, and you come back with absolute nonsense.

I'll be back tomorrow for round two, typing on my phone is too slow.

[Firebird]

May 15, 2012 20:34:06 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Firebird when someone says you will go to hell if you don't believe in Christ they are not personally sending you there. They are telling you the repurcussions of your choice. It is not indoctrination to say 2+2=4. Teaching the truth and saying this is true and the other isn't is not indoctrination.

Except that this is NOT NECESSARILY TRUE. It is your opinion/belief. It's a VALID opinion/belief, but stating it as a fact akin to 2 + 2 = 4 is deeply misleading at best. How can you not see that?

Okay, NOW I'm done for the night.

[Deleted]

I understand where you are coming from.

You classify teaching religion as Truth as indoctrination. I am explaining that it is not.

You are trying to claim that offering diverse choices and offering equal validity to opposing beliefs is not a religion of it's own. I am trying to get you to see that it is a religous belief making you equally religous and just as guilty of "indoctrination".

You are nice about it, and you don't name call (mostly) but you have ideas as strong as anyone I have met and are as judgemental as anything you are condemning.

[Deleted]

Except that this is NOT NECESSARILY TRUE

Yes it is.

BTW - You're insistance that it isn't true is what I mean about your intolerance of beliefs different than your own. If you truly weren't judgemental and valued all beliefs you would not feel the need to tell me I am wrong.

[Firebird]

I'm not telling you that you're wrong. On the contrary, I went out of my way to call your belief valid. I said you were not necessarily right, which is a very different statement.

For all I know, you're NOT wrong. But I can sure reasonably believe that you are. And that belief is equally valid, because what you are postulating cannot be proven beyond doubt in your favor OR mine.

[Deleted]

Round two! Did I miss something? ..

How about a PEACE of pie ladies?
farm3.static.flickr.com/2740/4115745742_d545e8c7ff.jpg [/img]

Doesn't read like there will be an agreeing of posts perceptions by tomorrow ..

[moxie]

Just a little something to lighten the mood...


"From a distance
You look like my friend
Even though we are at war
From a distance
I just cannot comprehend
What all this fighting's for
From a distance
There is harmony
And it echoes through the land
And it's the hope of hopes
It's the love of loves
It's the heart of every man"

[moxie]

heart2heart and I are on the same page...lol

[Deleted]

I love that song. Moxie! And I especially love to hear it sung/sang by Bette Midler..

I must do a listen to right now..

[moxie]

And I especially love to hear it sung/sang by Bette Midler..

She ROCKS!!

[weltschmerz]

Firebird when someone says you will go to hell if you don't believe in Christ they are not personally sending you there. They are telling you the repurcussions of your choice.
--------------------
People can think all they want that they'll go to hell if they don't believe in Christ. However, they have no business telling other people they'll go to hell.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2012 21:07:23 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Firebird when someone says you will go to hell if you don't believe in Christ they are not personally sending you there. They are telling you the repurcussions of your choice.
--------------------
People can think all they want that they'll go to hell if they don't believe in Christ. However, they have no business telling other people they'll go to hell.

In this context we are specifically talking about teaching the religion. You have to tell the repurcussions of the choices.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2012 20:50:47 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I'm not telling you that you're wrong. On the contrary, I went out of my way to call your belief valid. I said you were not necessarily right, which is a very different statement.

For all I know, you're NOT wrong. But I can sure reasonably believe that you are. And that belief is equally valid, because what you are postulating cannot be proven beyond doubt in your favor OR mine.

You are splitting hairs. You are trying to say I'm wrong and then deny you are saying that.

[Deleted]

For the record, I like Firebird. I totally disagree with her on this, but I like her.

[Firebird]

Do I disagree with your religious belief? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think you're wrong. I'm agnostic, that means I don't have ANY religious beliefs. By definition, that means I disagree with them all but that doesn't mean I think people are wrong for having them. Faith is a fine thing to have, a good thing. It's okay not to have it, too.

So, later- your kid comes up to you and says he wants to attend a Pagan ritual with a friend because he finds Wicca interesting and wants to learn more about it. You say what?

[Deleted]

She goes. We have had comparable things happen. I don't punish her for not believing what I do. But I don't water down my belief to make it palatable. It's the truth. It is what it is.

[Firebird]

You mean it is what YOU BELIEVE it is.

(See how it's kind of annoying when other people tell you what you think about a subject?)

[Deleted]

I don't find it annoying. I say what I believe and own it. You seem to have some cognitive dissonance going on. You are judgemental but don't believe in being judgemental.

[Firebird]

Still not understanding how I'm being judgmental by pointing out that what happens to us after death is a matter of pure speculation and not a verifiable fact, no matter how strongly you believe you know what happens.

Or how I'm being intolerant by not believing that it's right to force religious theory on people who are too young to develop their own opinions.

[Firebird]

And speaking of not owning what you say, you are not telling me what you believe; you are insisting that what you believe is a fact. There's a big difference, so I find it kind of funny that you're accusing me of inconsistency.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2012 20:54:57 GMT -5 @moxie said:

heart2heart and I are on the same page...lol

We sure were.. I agree, Bette Midler rocks!

May 15, 2012 21:24:51 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

For the record, I like Firebird. I totally disagree with her on this, but I like her.

May your friendship remain intact.. Carry on then.

[Firebird]

You are nice about it, and you don't name call (mostly) but you have ideas as strong as anyone I have met and are as judgemental as anything you are condemning.

I like the "mostly" part. When did I ever once call anyone a name, here or anywhere else in connection to religion?

You are trying to claim that offering diverse choices and offering equal validity to opposing beliefs is not a religion of it's own. I am trying to get you to see that it is a religous belief making you equally religous and just as guilty of "indoctrination".

I think what you're saying is that having no religious beliefs is the same as having one religious belief, and making sure my children know that I believe all religious faiths are equally valid is the same as raising them to believe that one is better than all the others.

Do I have that right?

If so, we're going to have to agree to disagree. As I've said MANY MANY TIMES, I don't consider it indoctrination to share one's OWN beliefs with one's children - I don't know how it could be any other way. I'd expect no Christian parent to hide his or her faith as if it were something to be ashamed of, so neither will DH and I hide our agnosticism.

HOWEVER, there is a long, long road between sharing your beliefs with your children and "raising them" in your particular faith (or lack thereof). It's one thing for me to share with my children that I personally do not find any one religion compelling; it would be quite another if I regularly mocked religion, if I didn't support my children exploring faith for themselves, if I rolled my eyes when they said they wanted to attend church. I have no intention of doing any of that.

Granted, it's a lot easier for me to refrain from advocating a specific faith when I have none myself. I acknowledge that - and as I said in an earlier post, I don't know how I would reasonably deal with this if I was still religious. It would be a very tough call, because of COURSE you want to teach your children something if YOU BELIEVE it is true, and of COURSE you want them to live by it as much as you do yourself.

But I can't get past the dishonesty of it - and I do consider it dishonest. Look at it this way, I can believe with all my heart that DH is the best tennis player in the world (for example) and maybe I even have good reason to think that. Maybe he's won some tournaments, maybe he's a really excellent tennis player. But he's not objectively the best tennis player in the entire world no matter how much I believe he is or want him to be. Stating "My husband is the best tennis player in the entire world" is not stating a FACT akin to "My husband won the state tennis tournament in 2011." The latter can be verified and proven; the former is merely my opinion and by nature, opinions are subjective. They CANNOT be verified in the same way that facts can be verified.

So if I had a child and raised him or her to believe that DH being the best tennis player in the world was a FACT (no different than the FACT that DH won the state tennis tournament in 2011), I'd be misleading him or her. Because one is not a fact equal to the other (one represents my heartfelt opinion in which I completely believe), yet I'm presenting them as equally true.