How expensive can a divorce be

[Angel!]

May 10, 2012 16:27:06 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If shopping is a higher priority, fine, but then she has no right to turn around and cry that she wanted a baby MORE THAN ANYTHING when clearly that's not the case.

DING! DING! DING! Give the woman a cookie!

If her biological clock was really ticking and she wanted a baby more than anything she wouldn't be bitching about the slightly crappy apartment in order to save the money they'd need to have one.

It could be because saving money leads to upping the retirement portfolio, not paying off the debt.

[Sum Dum Gai]

It could be because saving money leads to upping the retirement portfolio, not paying off the debt.

Which would be a totally fair point to bring up in the conversation they had about getting pregnant. You know, if she wasn't too busy lying to him and trying to trick him into an oops to have said conversation.

[emma1420]

May 10, 2012 16:24:49 GMT -5 Firebird said:

And so I get a woman becoming really concerned about that, especially if she is concerned that her fertility may be in question in her 20's.

Which is why it would make sense for her to really buckle down on those financial goals so that she can hurry up and get to their stated place of financial readiness - no consumer debt and $15k in savings. If shopping is a higher priority, fine, but then she has no right to turn around and cry that she wanted a baby MORE THAN ANYTHING when clearly that's not the case.

That is the rationale way to approach the situation, but I think when you desperately want a child and you are afraid that you may not ever be able to have one and time is running out you simply don't think rationally. Desperate people do desperate things.

And with more than 100K in student loan debt, it's probably overwhelming to think it will ever be paid off. Or that it will take 15-20 years, and then she'll have no chance to have a child.

And if I had a spouse who wasn't ready, and didn't have any clue when he or she might be ready, I might be panicking as well.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I think when you desperately want a child and you are afraid that you may not ever be able to have one and time is running out you simply don't think rationally. Desperate people do desperate things.

Oh for crying out loud. She just turned 27, not 37.

[Deleted]

I just want to give props to all the lurkers and newbies posting here with some good insights and advice!

[Firebird]

Which would be a totally fair point to bring up in the conversation they had about getting pregnant. You know, if she wasn't too busy lying to him and trying to trick him into an oops to have said conversation.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 16:35:59 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

I think when you desperately want a child and you are afraid that you may not ever be able to have one and time is running out you simply don't think rationally. Desperate people do desperate things.

Oh for crying out loud. She just turned 27, not 37.

I know people do it all the time, but I wouldn't want to wait until I was in my 30s to start thinking about having kids. 27 isn't old, but biologically she ain't no spring chicken.

[Angel!]

May 10, 2012 16:11:11 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

- sex: never been an issue in our relationship (heck we still had sex on saturday and Sunday night, yes condoms were used)

For what it is worth, my counselor once told me when things are really screwed up & there are major issues to resolve to the point that divorce is on the table, then sex should be a no-no. She said sex can lead to overlooking the issues & leaving things unresolved or lead one person to falsely believe things have been resolved & everything is ok again.

I didn't necessarily take that advice, but thought I'd share anyway.

[Firebird]

And with more than 100K in student loan debt, it's probably overwhelming to think it will ever be paid off. Or that it will take 15-20 years, and then she'll have no chance to have a child.

Except he's not saying they need to pay off that entire debt, he's saying they need to pay off the CONSUMER debt. Big difference - although she probably correctly suspects that she will never be able to convince Carl to let her be a SAHM until the debt is paid off*, but you know what? That's HER problem. It was her decision to rack up that ridiculous amount of school debt when she wanted to be a SAHM, and now she needs to be a big girl and live with the freaking consequences.

*I know he's said he doesn't want it regardless, but I'm sure she feels she could talk him down from that if they were in a good place financially.

[8 Bit WWBG]

So its all good, you'll be fine. You are both a little wiser from this. Hopefully the counselor can help you each bridge your communication gaps, and "translate" each of your points into a language the other speaks. Do like I do and look back on some of these utterly bone-chilling moments as "learning experiences". Don't do them again.

Margarita time everyone!!!!! Though my drink is a bourbon manhattan. I once got carded ordering one. Who the hell under 50 even knows what one is!

[Works4me]

To be blunt - the cost of $125k in student loans is having to wait for children and not being able to stay home for an extended period of time. I too see her not wanting to return to work after a year, especially if one is all you have. The cost of borrowing money from her mother is that she is then more involved in your lives. The cost of shopping and living in an upscale home is waiting for other things. Everything has a cost - the problem is no one wants to pay it.

C - any chance her parents could/would pay off her student loans?
I ask this because it would allow her to stay home and her mother seems to want her to be happy.

ETA - I too agree that marriage counselling could be helpful. Look at it as an investment in learning how to be married and stay married. I agree that you probably tend to lay doen the law so to speak and she tends to just go along with it. Not a good way for either one of you to build a life-long relationship.

One other thing - unless you want a baby, always use a condom! Check out non-latex as they can be warmer, feel better and cause less itch for the woman.

[Firebird]

I know people do it all the time, but I wouldn't want to wait until I was in my 30s to start thinking about having kids. 27 isn't old, but biologically she ain't no spring chicken.

True, but she's hardly advanced enough where there's an increased risk of Downs and other birth defects. She still has plenty of time, especially if she gets moving and really prioritizes her life - you know, by giving up some things in order to have other things, the way adults do.

[Deleted]

My DH's hipster cousins drink Manhattans.

[Sum Dum Gai]

27 isn't old, but biologically she ain't no spring chicken.

It's a good thing they only want one then, and if they'd really buckled down a year ago they could have already met the financial goals Carl wants to wait for.

[Firebird]

To be blunt - the cost of $125k in student loans is having to wait for children and not being able to stay home for an extended period of time.

Precisely. And if she thought that she was going to get married and her husband was just going to take care of that for her, well... maybe some men out there would, but I sure as hell don't blame cawiau for telling her she's got another think coming.

If DH had that kind of debt for ANY reason, there would be zero discussion of him staying home until it was paid off. Or me, for that matter.

[Deleted]

May 10, 2012 16:14:49 GMT -5 quotequeen said:

May 10, 2012 16:11:11 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

- I don't know what she shared with her mom but she just informed me that her mom is going to lend us the 6k to pay off the credit card debt and we can just pay her back in one lump sum when we have it or can pay it back.

Is that really going to help anything? Will you feel better about the financial situation because you owe the 6k to her mom instead?

That is exactly what I told my wife :You are just switching lenders and makes no difference. The credit card is at 0%.

But she said that she figured it would help since we wouldn't need to pay her mom back anytime soon if ever.

aka she likes making those loans out to my wife that when it is time to pay back she refuses to take the money or say to consider it a gift for birthday, holiday, etc.

I figured it was their way/loophole around me getting upset over her always running to her mom for money.

I am playing dumb but I know it is a gift. I've been keeping a ledger and so far (without counting the 6k) my MIL has loaned my wife about 3k-5k since June of last year that she has been refusing to accept payments for and the excuses have been:
- use it for max birthday (in July)
- wedding anniversary
- gas money for traveling to Long Island
- her share of the cell phone bill
- car note oatmeal because she used my wife car when she stayed with us for 2 weeks plus gas.

What they don't know is I've gotten over her subsidizing my wife a long time ago and just play dumb; I know that my wife has a debit card giving her access to her mom checking account.

[Firebird]

It's a good thing they only want one then, and if they'd really buckled down a year ago they could have already met the financial goals Carl wants to wait for.

What are the odds that she really only wants one? Having another kid at the end of her "year" deadline would be the perfect excuse to keep staying home. "Oh, why get a job now when I'll just have to quit again in nine months and then I'll be home for ANOTHER year with new baby, then at that point we'll have two kids at home and it just makes more sense for me to stay home forever, think of the cost of daycare..."

[Cookies Galore]

May 10, 2012 16:31:09 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 10, 2012 16:27:06 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

If shopping is a higher priority, fine, but then she has no right to turn around and cry that she wanted a baby MORE THAN ANYTHING when clearly that's not the case.

DING! DING! DING! Give the woman a cookie!

If her biological clock was really ticking and she wanted a baby more than anything she wouldn't be bitching about the slightly crappy apartment in order to save the money they'd need to have one.

It could be because saving money leads to upping the retirement portfolio, not paying off the debt.

I have a thought. Carl's big itch is the retirement savings. He's created many threads about upping their contributions, upping their contributions, upping their contributions, etc. But if he won't be comfortable having kids until cars are paid off, CC debt is gone, and they have a comfortable amount of money in their savings/EF, wouldn't the focus be on curbing the obsessive 401(k) contribution increases and redirecting some funds to debt elimination? I kind of wonder if Carl is keeping them off-track of this perfectly reasonable financial goal because children scare him right now? YM is really good at instilling financial fear in those of us who don't have a bazillion dollars by the age of 5.

[Sum Dum Gai]

What are the odds that she really only wants one?

I think they've said the whole time they only want one. I could be mixing them up with somebody else though.

Having another kid at the end of her "year" deadline would be the perfect excuse to keep staying home. "Oh, why get a job now when I'll just have to quit again in nine months and then I'll be home for ANOTHER year with new baby, then at that point we'll have two kids at home and it just makes more sense for me to stay home forever, think of the cost of daycare..."

If they both really only want one, Carl can get snipped right after the birth of the first one, and head that off before it's an issue.

[Deleted]

Good call Meg.

[Firebird]

I think they've said the whole time they only want one. I could be mixing them up with somebody else though.

They only want one NOW, but I'm betting that if the alternative is her going back to work after a year, Mrs. C. would start pushing for a second baby. So I would DEFINITELY get snipped after the first if I were Mr. C.

[busymom]

Oh great! So her Mom is her enabler. If C won't give Mrs C money, apparently she goes running to her Mommy. (Does her Dad enable her too?)


Busy wins the prize!! I guessed earlier that her parents never told her "NO" when she was little!


Dang C, you & a counselor have your work cut out for you, if anytime you say no she runs to her Mommy. Ouch!

[Sum Dum Gai]

So, is this the game plan we've decided on then?

Carl,

1) Couple's counseling.
2) You guys both set your retirements savings at 15% and leave them there.
3) No baby making until the consumer debt is paid off, $15k in savings, and the cars paid off. (or whatever that list was from a couple pages ago.)
4) In the mean time you'll both buckle down and use the spare money to meet #3.
5) Every time your wife gets that shopping itch ask her point blank whether she'd rather have a baby or new curtains, shoes, a dinner out, or whatever it is she's talking about buying.
6) In six months she'll either hate your guts, or you guys will be well on your way towards meeting your goals, and making a baby. Either way, you'll know exactly where you stand.

Any chance she'll go for it?

[Firebird]

YM is really good at instilling financial fear in those of us who don't have a bazillion dollars by the age of 5.

That's because people who don't are worth less than the rest of us.



But yeah, good point Meghan. I agree that Carl owes it to his wife to be honest about when and if he wants kids. If he's not emotionally ready yet, then being financially ready will not change that.

[Firebird]

Dang C, you & a counselor have your work cut out for you, if anytime you say no she runs to her Mommy. Ouch!

Mommy can't give her a baby (I hope). I think Mrs. C was just trying to find a way to get the debt paid off fast so Carl wouldn't have any more excuses. But if it's a "loan" not a gift then that doesn't exactly count as getting the debt paid off, especially if it's at 0% right now.

[Deleted]

Can I just ask you all to please STFU for a few minutes so I can catch up? I am only on page 9 and I am afraid of never catching up before you all get the thread deleted. Kthankyouverymuch!

[Firebird]

I like Dark's plan. C, is that what you plan to do?

[Firebird]

Can I just ask you all to please STFU for a few minutes so I can catch up? I am only on page 9 and I am afraid of never catching up before you all get the thread deleted. Kthankyouverymuch!

I understand how you feel. It took me all morning to catch up on the thread!

Cawiau and Doxie = YM crack cocaine. If they ever start threads at the same time, we might all just as well quit our jobs right then and there.

[wvugurl26]

Dark does have a good plan.

Oh hell the sky must really be falling!

[mmhmm]

Good advice in #1134, Dark Honor. From what I've read, that's the only way this problem is going to be resolved. Carl, you and your wife have to sit down (preferably, with a counsellor) and decide what each of you wants and how each of you plans to achieve your goal. Then, the two of you have to decide whether, or not, your goals are compatible. If they are, you can set down a plan and work toward it. If they're not, you'll know you'll need to make a different sort of plans. Either way, it comes down to sitting down and talking it out until you arrive at a viable solution.