Big wedding when you're already married

[Firebird]

Firebird... you have specifically said that you will not treat a 'fake' wedding like a real one, so it would indicate it would indeed change your behavior.

Where did I say that? (ETA: Not trying to be snarky, it's just that there was probably a context. I wouldn't "treat it differently" as a guest of any kind, only if I was paying for it.)

[Works4me]

Wonder what's going to happen if the family does not like the bride.
Also, are said families paying for education, etc right now or is couple fully self-supporting?
DO families know they have been living together?
Going to be real interesting who tells and when.
Sometimes certain people tell just to be mean.
Could even see families knowing and pretending not to.
Please let us know how it turns out.

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 16:03:49 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I guess I have a different view of "honesty." I don't think it is that virtous.

Well said.

[Firebird]

Message deleted by Firebird.

[Deleted]

I did our paperwork for our marriage in buffalo because we would not have time to get the marriage paperwork in Ca when were going back. How much of a difference in date would you feel, that they should not do a big wedding. The ceremony and the legalities can be very different.

[Deleted]

"Except it does. Like it or not, people treat weddings differently than they treat receptions and anniversary parties. So to call one thing something else..." page 3

"Regardless of the "traditional" meaning of marriage, I still consider legal marriage an enormous and important step in a couple's relationship. Being there when they get married is important to me. Of course I am also celebrating their relationship, and a successful milestone in it, but I don't give my friends anniversary or "moving in together" presents. I give wedding presents because THAT particular step is very important to me.

That being said, it doesn't really matter how I feel about it. Marriage means different things to different people, I get that. So if a couple with whom I'm close chooses to elope beforehand, I wouldn't say a word about that. I WOULD, however, have a problem attending their "wedding" a year later. " - page 4

"Those are all "celebrating relationship" milestones, yet you never hear about people having parties and asking friends to come celebrate for those occasions in lieu of asking them to come celebrate their weddings. Perhaps because they know most people would take those parties less seriously than a wedding. " - page 4

for starters...

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 16:09:36 GMT -5 Firebird said:

So let me ask you something. You say that you'd rather not know if one of your kids was deliberately flying against your wishes.

The way I understood it, she didn't tell them not to get married, she just said don't tell me about it. Not exactly flying against her wishes if they get married

What if I was your kid and you were seriously, violently opposed to me living with my boyfriend but I did it anyway and you found out about it somehow besides me telling you (say a family member spilled or something). Would you continue to pretend you didn't know, or would you confront me about it? And if you'd confront me about it, what would you expect me to do?

That seems like a very different scenario, unless she said "I don't care if you move in together, just don't tell me about it".

In my mind the 2 scenarios don't really compare.

[Firebird]

Apr 23, 2012 16:23:23 GMT -5 oped said:

"Except it does. Like it or not, people treat weddings differently than they treat receptions and anniversary parties. So to call one thing something else..." page 3

"Regardless of the "traditional" meaning of marriage, I still consider legal marriage an enormous and important step in a couple's relationship. Being there when they get married is important to me. Of course I am also celebrating their relationship, and a successful milestone in it, but I don't give my friends anniversary or "moving in together" presents. I give wedding presents because THAT particular step is very important to me.

That being said, it doesn't really matter how I feel about it. Marriage means different things to different people, I get that. So if a couple with whom I'm close chooses to elope beforehand, I wouldn't say a word about that. I WOULD, however, have a problem attending their "wedding" a year later. " - page 4

"Those are all "celebrating relationship" milestones, yet you never hear about people having parties and asking friends to come celebrate for those occasions in lieu of asking them to come celebrate their weddings. Perhaps because they know most people would take those parties less seriously than a wedding. " - page 4

for starters...

But none of those said that I would ACT differently, only that I would FEEL differently. Big difference.

[Deleted]

You would have a problem attending their 'wedding' a year later... take it less seriously... and treat it differently as a reception ...

I'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding, but it seems that the reason you most want to be informed is because you might be deceived into thinking and acting as if it was a 'real' wedding.

[Firebird]

I'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding, but it seems that the reason you most want to be informed is because you might be deceived into thinking and acting as if it was a 'real' wedding.

That's not really how I meant it. I meant that I would want to be informed because if I found out (either before or after) that I was attending something different than what I thought I was attending, I would feel hurt and deceived (assuming I was close to the couple). So the idea would be to avoid feeling hurt and deceived.

Even if I did feel hurt and deceived, it's not like I wouldn't go and have a good time. Or, if the wedding had already happened, it's not like I would call up the couple and rant about how their wedding was a fake. Would I feel bad? You bet. Would I consider their wedding "real"? I would know it was real to them and try to just focus on that, but honestly, no I wouldn't. I would still ACT like it was their real wedding, though.

I do possess a modicum of tact. Hard as it may be to believe ;D

[kindthatjingles]

My two cents, is that I don't get doing it that way but to each their own.

We had a wedding date ( the whole schmear planned) went on vacation a trip won from our work, eloped on teh beach.. Came home and had the recption wore my dress and had a hell of a party. The stress was gone.. I called my Dad beforehand and I had his blessing.

I would have felt stupid doing it a second time just for show. I meant the words when I said them the first time. I thought it would cheapen it to do it again and it just seemed silly

But mine crashed and burned at 10 years so what do I know

[Deleted]

And as i admited much earlier in this thread, I just do not really get the wedding thing much at all ... so generally have to work to maintain a modicum of tact regardless....

[kindthatjingles]

Angel.. Karma to you could nto leave you hanging at 199!!!!

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 16:38:56 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I do possess a modicum of tact. Hard as it may be to believe ;D

Yeah, but inside you would ultimately see it as a "fake" wedding. That almost makes it worse, you expect honesty out of me, but then won't be honest in return regarding your feelings.

That is why I didn't want people to know, because I was worried that behind the scenes I would be some big joke. I have low self-esteem & it would tear me apart thinking/knowing that my wedding was just a big f'ing joke to people because I was already married. Why would I want to put myself through that just so you don't feel decieved?

That is why it was either tell people & never have a real wedding or don't tell them & have a real wedding someday. I still wanted the real wedding, so I kept the legal marriage a secret.

[Deleted]

"Yeah, but inside you would ultimately see it as a "fake" wedding. That almost makes it worse, you expect honesty out of me, but then won't be honest in return regarding your feelings."

There is truth in that...

[Firebird]

Yeah, but inside you would ultimately see it as a "fake" wedding. That almost makes it worse, you expect honesty out of me, but then won't be honest in return regarding your feelings.

But I thought you wouldn't WANT me to tell you my real feelings?

I guess to me, getting people to act (or feel, I suppose) a certain way via deceit is wrong. Even about something that's very important to you. Let's say DSch (Dear Schmoopy) and I weren't married and my parents were terribly against that. Let's say they planned to act as though it were their grandchild but in their minds, it wouldn't "feel" like they had a legitimate grandchild because we weren't married when it was born.

They can't help it - that's just the way they feel and they still intend to be nice to the baby and be with me in the hospital and all that. Would it be right of me to pretend that DSch and I were married just so they would FEEL like our child was their grandchild? Not to me.

[Deleted]

It would just be wrong to pretend you weren't legally married, so they would FEEL like they had attended your 'real wedding'...

[Firebird]

That is why I didn't want people to know, because I was worried that behind the scenes I would be some big joke. I have low self-esteem & it would tear me apart thinking/knowing that my wedding was just a big f'ing joke to people because I was already married. Why would I want to put myself through that just so you don't feel decieved?

That's putting your feelings above other people's, though. It's saying "my need to feel like my wedding is legitimate to you is more important than telling you the truth." And that's a choice. It may not be a choice I agree with or respect, but it's a choice you have a right to make.

It IS your wedding. I believe I've conceded this point, multiple times. So you should feel free to do it however you like. Do I agree? No. Would I feel deceived if I found out afterward? Yes. However, do you have a right to do it? Certainly.

My basic position on this type of thing is that you can do whatever you want - as long as you own the consequences. If you're going to do something in secret because you know if you do it openly, people will be hurt - then you must accept that if it somehow gets out, people will be hurt. If you choose to accept that, it's your business.

Personally, I wouldn't feel right going about it that way - mostly because I wouldn't be willing to lie about it. But that's me.

[Plain Old Petunia]

Apr 23, 2012 11:22:27 GMT -5 Firebird said:

So an old friend of my DH is having a big wedding next spring and we've been invited. No problem, I like weddings. The only thing is that they're already married. They secretly eloped four or five weeks ago. They're keeping it quiet ostensibly to avoid "upsetting" their families who wanted them to wait longer to get married (the families are paying for 80% of the wedding, by the way).

But DH's friend confided in him that his fiancee/wife wanted to be married immediately but also wanted the big wedding party.

Does this kind of thing bother anyone else? It's not a huge deal to ME in this case because I don't have a dog in the fight. But if I were very close to the bride and groom (especially if I were, for example, one of the parents that was paying for the big wedding), I would be incredibly upset should I find out that the happy couple was already married and just wanted to have a huge party on our dime.

And even if I weren't involved in funding the thing, I think I'd feel kind of silly attending a huge wedding only to find out afterward that it wasn't the real wedding. I'm glad I know in advance that they're already married and that I'm not that close to them, but if I didn't and I was, I imagine I'd feel pretty deceived.

Thoughts?

I've been to a wedding like that. My ex-h was the best man. We spent money we didn't have on ex-h's tux, the bachelor party, the trip out of town, etc. I learned later the bride and groom had been married for months. Yes, I was mad. Yes, I felt deceived. I still think of the couple as unbelievably tacky.

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 16:55:05 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Yeah, but inside you would ultimately see it as a "fake" wedding. That almost makes it worse, you expect honesty out of me, but then won't be honest in return regarding your feelings.

But I thought you wouldn't WANT me to tell you my real feelings?

No, I wouldn't want you to have those feeling period. It doesn't make it any better if I just have to wonder how you feel.

A little opposite, but the same way I wouldn't tell most people if I had an abortion. I would always wonder if deep inside they saw me as a horrible baby-killer. I wouldn't even want to wonder if someone felt that way about me, so I wouldn't share that little fact about myself.

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 16:43:36 GMT -5 kindthatjingles said:

Angel.. Karma to you could nto leave you hanging at 199!!!!

Thanks!

I think I got a few karmas on this thread & I'm not sure why. I think I am just proving to people that I am even more crazy than they realized.

[thyme4change]

You say that you'd rather not know if one of your kids was deliberately flying against your wishes. What if I was your kid and you were seriously, violently opposed to me living with my boyfriend but I did it anyway and you found out about it somehow besides me telling you

The situation is really very different. And there are several reasons:

Reason #1: The wedding is a single event, and the signing of a marriage license can be easily covered. Living together is a totally different lifestyle, so in order for me to not find out, there would be a daily effort to cut me out of their life.

Reason #2: The reason I would be against my kids eloping is because of my needs. I just really want to be part of my kids' wedding - so if I'm left out, it hurts me, not them. So, if they chose to do soemthing to protect me, I'll take it. Whereas something like living together - that is a lifestyle choice. If they choose to become vegans, or devil worshipers, or join the quiverful movement and wear ugly clothes and have 20 kids - well, that is their lives. And I want them to share it with me so I can deal with it and love them for who they are, not who they are pretending to be.

Let's go with another example. Teenaged pregnancy. Let's say my daughter gets pregnant when she is 17, and she goes to Planned Parenthood and has an abortion. Because she doesn't know I will feel about it, she opts not to tell me. I never find out, or I find out when she is 32 and it slips out. Kind of a "What you don't know won't hurt you." However, if my daughter choses to run away and have the baby in secret and never tell me - because she knows I'm against teenaged moms, that would be terrible. Maybe she continues to send letters (or emails) that details out her life, artfully leaving out any mention of my grandchild. One is an "event" the other is a "lifestyle." Hurting someone over a single "event" is different than hurting someone over an entire "lifestyle."

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 17:00:59 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Would I feel deceived if I found out afterward? Yes.

Ah, but I am a good secret keeper so you would have never found out

Personally, I wouldn't feel right going about it that way - mostly because I wouldn't be willing to lie about it. But that's me.

It is lying through omission & as Thyme said there is a difference between lying about a one time event & a lifestyle choice. Maybe I am weird, but I don't think lying is always a bad choice. Lying protects feelings & can save relationships. Sometimes the truth hurts more when there is no reason for the truth. Ignorance can be bliss.

[thyme4change]

So, my friends who eloped - they were already living together, and sharing money, and acting like a unit - so their Vegas marriage didn't really mean that much to me. However, I heard of a couple who were strict baptists and they wanted to have sex so bad that they got married in secret, had sex, but didn't tell anyone and continued to live separately, and act like boyfriend/girlfriend - except when they would drive out to a dark wooded area to have sex. They had a "wedding" later. I just roll my eyes at that one.

Of course - I am probably more rolling my eyes at the baptists and the whole abstinance movement rather than this particular couple's choices. I can't really disect my feelings on this one.

[Deleted]

I guess the problem is that some of us see the legal paperwork & the commitment as 2 different things. If a couple considers themselves committed enough to call each other husband & wife, then why is it any of my business if they have signed a piece of paper telling the govt. this?
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[image]

A marriage confers rights and benefits. Calling yourself married does not. If you want to care for your partner you either marry them or go through a shit ton of paperwork to confer the same benefits. I have some friends who call themselves "married" and yet are not. They also haven't done the paperwork to make sure their partners are taken care of. That doesn't seem like love or being responsible to me.

[thyme4change]

I have some friends who call themselves "married" and yet are not.

I would assume that these people go around calling themselves married not for their own benefit, but because they don't want to deal with the bullshit that comes with not following the normal societal expectations.

If my husband and I decided for whatever reason to not marry, but we had lived together for 20 years and had a couple of kids, don't you think the first thing people would ask when they found out we weren't married would be "why not" and don't you think people, such as yourself, would give them a rash of shit for not following what they dictate as "loving" and "responsible"?

[Deleted]

we had lived together for 20 years and had a couple of kids, don't you think the first thing people would ask when they found out we weren't married would be "why not" and don't you think people, such as yourself, would give them a rash of shit for not following what they dictate as "loving" and "responsible"?

If you've lived together for 20 years, had kids, went to a lawyer to deal with estate and tax issues, made sure your retirement and the house was distributed fairly when you died, etc. then I wouldn't give you a rash of shit. If you called yourself married but don't go to any trouble to protect your partner I'm going to give you shit.

[thyme4change]

Where did I mention a lawyer, taxes, retirement or a house?

I know plenty of people who are married who don't do dick to protect their spouse. People often leave marriages in much worse shape than when they entered them. Marrying someone opens yourself up to losing half your assets and assuming half their debts. Just because my Mom pulls the plug instead of my "husband" doesn't mean that he or I was better protected.

[Deleted]

Marrying someone opens yourself up to losing half your assets and assuming half their debts. Just because my Mom pulls the plug instead of my "husband" doesn't mean that he or I was better protected.

What if your "husband" was better aware of the what you desired at the end of life and your mother hadn't spoken to you in years? What if you decide to separate and there is no clear delineation of how to divorce? I've seen people who are "married" "divorce" and it ain't pretty.

[thyme4change]

I'm just saying that marriage isn't a panacea of protection. The legal rights assigned to your spouse don't always protect you, and often hurt you. And if people want to share those rights or not, it really isn't any of your business.

Archie doesn't have life insurance. He must not love his wife, because she is unprotected - big time!