Big wedding when you're already married

[Deleted]

"Again, how am I telling anyone exactly what is real and true about how to celebrate their union? Just because I want to know whether what I'm attending is their actual wedding or not, that makes me Guestzilla? "

Because... you are saying just because some of Angel's GUESTS might view the legal document signing as the 'real' wedding.. SHE had to view the legal document signing as the 'real' wedding ... she chooses to think of her formal, spiritual ceremony as the fuction at which she was joined in matrimony ...
I don't think that should be about you, or anyone else, personally...

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 15:25:52 GMT -5 Works4me said:

Angel D - just curious, how do you explain your children?

You do know children can happen out of wedlock right? My eggs don't just start dropping when I sign the paper. LOL. ;D

But, seriously I am talking about my relationship with my first ex (no kids) & in case anyone is confused the big wedding never happened, we split before it did. He joined the military & I have health conditions that make it pretty much impossible to buy private health insurance & I couldn't find a job where he was going. In fact it took met 1.5 yrs to get a job there that offered health insurance at all. So we married during a break in bootcamp & I moved with him when he got stationed.

For some reason he wanted to wait until he was out of the military to get "fake" married & we were never intending to have kids until after the real wedding.

But, we broke up along the way & none of that happened. In truth I don't think either of us really wanted to get married yet, just felt forced into the issue by circumstances. Whether or not the relationship would have lasted if we considered ourselves married & had done the wedding is something that I do wonder at times.

[weltschmerz]

Let me ask you, how would you feel about attending a "wedding" ceremony if the couple NEVER planned to get legally married? They just wanted to have a big party with their family and friends and they didn't think that people would come if they didn't think it was a wedding, so they let everyone think they were getting married and never actually got legally hitched? (Assuming this was possible, and again, not talking about a gay couple doing this - I'm talking about a straight couple that COULD legally marry but didn't want to do so for whatever reason.)
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I would go and have a good time.

[Firebird]

FB, and Angel, how would you feel if you were guests at the wedding I mentioned earlier, where the couple didn't actually do the legal thing until several months later? A lot of people traveled from other states to see them get married, and never knew that what they saw that day wasn't an *official* wedding. It wasn't held in a church, if that matters.

I can hardly care about something I don't know about, so if they got legally married a few months later and never mentioned it, of course I wouldn't care. Do I still consider it deceitful? Yeah, but if you don't tell anyone... does the tree falling in the forest really make a sound?

[thyme4change]

Let me ask you, how would you feel about attending a "wedding" ceremony if the couple NEVER planned to get legally married? They just wanted to have a big party with their family and friends and they didn't think that people would come if they didn't think it was a wedding, so they let everyone think they were getting married and never actually got legally hitched?

Is the bar open or cash?

[Firebird]

Because... you are saying just because some of Angel's GUESTS might view the legal document signing as the 'real' wedding.. SHE had to view the legal document signing as the 'real' wedding ... she chooses to think of her formal, spiritual ceremony as the fuction at which she was joined in matrimony ...

I'm talking about MY feelings about it, not hers. For the fiftieth time, I KNOW I don't get to dictate what other people do and that's fine. I KNOW that marriage means different things to different people and that's fine.

But the question in the thread is WOULD I FEEL DECEIVED if I went to a "wedding" which actually had nothing to do with the legal ceremony, and found out about it. And the answer for ME is yes.

If people don't want to take that into account when planning their wedding, that's fine. I understand that others feel differently. Probably most people wouldn't care at all. But again, in my personal opinion weddings that you hold in the presence of other people stop being 100% about YOU and YOUR feelings. Maybe you decide that other people's feelings don't matter, and that's your decision. I disagree with it.

That's all.

[hoops902]

"SHE had to view the legal document signing as the 'real' wedding"

Because the term wedding has a definition, part of that definition is 2 people getting married. They were not getting married because they were already married.

So yes, if her guests viewed the legal document signing as the "real wedding", it's because it WAS the real wedding. That was the event which fit the actual definition of a wedding. If she wants to twist the definitions of words, then she needs to make sure her guests know that what she's SAYING is not actually what she MEANS. The importance is not how the guests "view" it, the importance is in making a claim which is based purely on your own made-up definition of a word and not telling people that you're just making things up.

If you invite your guests to your wedding, and when they show up it's 2 people before a judge in a big boring room and you get married...it's their fault if they're unhappy by it. You invited them to your wedding, and it was actually your wedding. It's not just about what the guests viewed it as, it's being HONEST. And making up your own definitions for words, and using those made up definitions without telling anyone to get them to do what you want, is not honest.

[Deleted]

I see Angel's point. Just sitting down and signing some papers so you can have insurance while you prepare to merge your lives probably doesn't feel very special. And most people want something special to commemorate (is that the right word?) the beginning of their new lives together. For some people going to the courthouse or wherever with a couple of witnesses and a nice dinner afterwards is special enough. For others, the whole shebang is the "special" something they want.

If I was one of Angel's close friends, I probably would've been a little hurt that she didn't tell me, but not because I wasn't there when it happened. It just seems like something you'd share with (tell) your close friend, that's all.

[Firebird]

I *do* have an issue with the hypocrisy of saying "oh, other people's opinions on this don't matter" and then going on to say "but we're not going to tell them because their opinions might mean that they don't come to my wedding / don't care about my wedding / don't consider my wedding to be my wedding." Their opinions either matter or they don't.

If you don't think other people's opinions/feelings matter, then why are you even inviting them to your wedding at all? If anyone had been against my marrying my Schmoopy for ANY reason, I wouldn't have wanted them to attend the wedding.

[hoops902]

Apr 23, 2012 15:43:09 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I see Angel's point. Just sitting down and signing some papers so you can have insurance while you prepare to merge your lives probably doesn't feel very special. And most people want something special to commemorate (is that the right word?) the beginning of their new lives together. For some people going to the courthouse or wherever with a couple of witnesses and a nice dinner afterwards is special enough. For others, the whole shebang is the "special" something they want.

If I was one of Angel's close friends, I probably would've been a little hurt that she didn't tell me, but not because I wasn't there when it happened. It just seems like something you'd share with (tell) your close friend, that's all.

I think not celebrating what seems like a boring signing of papers is fine. I also think celebrating later whenever you want to is fine.

[Works4me]

Angel D - lol - thx!

[Firebird]

I think not celebrating what seems like a boring signing of papers is fine. I also think celebrating later whenever you want to is fine.

Me too - as long as you are upfront about what is being celebrated.

You can still celebrate your marriage even if you're already legally married. I've maintained all along that I have no problem attending the ceremony even if they're legally married. Do I consider it their real wedding? Personally, no, but I'm not going to act like a big jerk about it and I'm certainly going to TREAT it as though it were their real wedding, since that's how THEY see it.

But finding out afterwards that it wasn't what I thought it was would be upsetting. For me. That's all I'm saying.

[thyme4change]

If you don't think other people's opinions/feelings matter, then why are you even inviting them to your wedding at all?

You changed your wording around a few times there. I think someone's opinion doesn't necessarily matter, but their feelings still matter. For example, I knew my mother wouldn't be happy with me and my boyfriend moving in together before getting married. However, I did what was best of rme. Her opinion didn't have too much bearing on my decision. But, her feelings mattered a great deal to me.

My best friend eloping - my opinion didn't change what she wanted to do. But she knew it would hurt my feelings. So, she opted not to tell me (until I guessed.) She felt bad that I felt bad - but she did what she wanted to do with her life.

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 15:43:05 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Because the term wedding has a definition, part of that definition is 2 people getting married. They were not getting married because they were already married.

So yes, if her guests viewed the legal document signing as the "real wedding", it's because it WAS the real wedding.

By that strict definition, then no one was present at FB's wedding either. She signed the papers the day before the ceremony. If we are going to call the paper signing the wedding, then let's just say that FB's guests all missed her real wedding too & just saw the fake wedding.

[Works4me]

Firebird - imho sounds like too many people know for the parents not to find out. Going to be real interesting when they do. Any idea why they wanted the couple to wait?

[thyme4change]

By that strict definition, then no one was present at FB's wedding either. She signed the papers the day before the ceremony.

If signing the papers is what makes it real, I've been to very few weddings. I was the bridesmaid at several fake weddings, I guess, since I only went to one wedding where they signed the papers during the ceremony. I did sign the papers for the two where I was the maid of honor. At one of them I was with the bride and the groom was in the other room - so the bride and groom weren't even together for the "real wedding."

We signed our papers at the reception, but only because we forgot to sign them after the ceremony. I was eating stuffed mushrooms.

[imawino]

Apr 23, 2012 15:48:31 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I think not celebrating what seems like a boring signing of papers is fine. I also think celebrating later whenever you want to is fine.

Me too - as long as you are upfront about what is being celebrated.

In all of these instances they are celebrating their relationship/marriage/union. They are being upfront about that.

[hoops902]

Apr 23, 2012 15:51:08 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Apr 23, 2012 15:43:05 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Because the term wedding has a definition, part of that definition is 2 people getting married. They were not getting married because they were already married.

So yes, if her guests viewed the legal document signing as the "real wedding", it's because it WAS the real wedding.

By that strict definition, then no one was present at FB's wedding either. She signed the papers the day before the ceremony. If we are going to call the paper signing the wedding, then let's just say that FB's guests all missed her real wedding too & just saw the fake wedding.

It's not necessarily that signing the papers is what makes you married though. For you it was, for many people it's not enough to simply sign the papers, they are also required to state some specific vows.

I'm not calling the "paper signing" the wedding for everyone, you've indicated that was what made you married in your state.

[Firebird]

My best friend eloping - my opinion didn't change what she wanted to do. But she knew it would hurt my feelings. So, she opted not to tell me (until I guessed.) She felt bad that I felt bad - but she did what she wanted to do with her life.

I think it comes to the same thing to be honest. If you decide someone's opinion doesn't matter because you're going to do something to which they are opposed, then whether or not they find out is a sidenote. You've already committed to your course of action knowing it will upset them if they find out. Lying doesn't change the fact that you didn't consider their opinion/feelings weighty enough to overcome what you wanted to do.

If we are going to call the paper signing the wedding, then let's just say that FB's guests all missed her real wedding too & just saw the fake wedding.

Actually, according to the notary who witnessed our signatures, the document wasn't legal until we said our vows. Kinda similar to what Hoops said - if we had signed the document and not said the vows, I don't think it would have been legal. The officiate who performed our ceremony had to sign the certificate on our wedding day certifying that she had, in fact, heard us say the vows and we were NOW legally married.

I actually asked about this specifically because I was concerned that by signing the papers a day early, DH's and my legal wedding date would have been 9/30 instead of 10/1. But then they explained that it wasn't legal until the vows were actually spoken before witnesses.

[hoops902]

"In all of these instances they are celebrating their relationship/marriage/union. They are being upfront about that. "

You're not being upfront if you invite someone to your wedding which is not actually your wedding.

[Deleted]

The definition of wedding is a marriage ceremony or celebration of marriage... I don't know how what the OP couple is proposing is not that ?? ... What is the ceremony and celebration about if not the marriage ??

I really don't think we'll agree on this one. Its semantics to me. I just don't think i'm in charge of telling other people how i can and will celebrate their relationships. Nor do i feel that i have the right to be offended if they signed the legal docmentation yesterday, a year ago, or tomorrow, or the right to treat their celebration as something 'less' because it isn't conducted how/what/when I think it should be...

Just my opinon...

[Firebird]

Firebird - imho sounds like too many people know for the parents not to find out. Going to be real interesting when they do. Any idea why they wanted the couple to wait?

You guys will love this one - because they live overseas and haven't met the girl yet They were hoping to at least meet her before giving the engagement their stamp of approval.

When the groom told his family that they wanted to get married, they originally said they would get married this year. But the family asked them to wait and they compromised by setting the date for next spring so that she could have a chance to meet them. Then they eloped so that the bride wouldn't have to wait so long to be married. Or something.

[Firebird]

I just don't think i'm in charge of telling other people how i can and will celebrate their relationships.

Once more with feeling - neither do I. How I feel about something does not necessarily have any impact on how I behave.

Most adults would have huge issues at work AND in their personal life if they had no ability to control their emotions. Sometimes you have to do what's best/right despite how you feel.

In Angel's case, if I found out about her getting legally married before the ceremony, it would have been wrong of me to not go or to go and make a big deal about how it wasn't their "real" wedding. I would have gone, I would have brought a gift, I would have told her congratulations. I also would have felt hurt and deceived.

I don't really see why this is so hard to understand.

[Sum Dum Gai]

You want to be there to witness the consumation as well?

Dunno, how hot is this hypothetical couple?

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 15:56:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Actually, according to the notary who witnessed our signatures, the document wasn't legal until we said our vows.

Interesting, we just must have really easy-going marriage laws. $30, no waiting period, & self solemnize (had to look up the term). We even allow common law marriage.

[hoops902]

"The definition of wedding is a marriage ceremony or celebration of marriage..."

I'd be curious as to where you got that a wedding is a "celebration of marriage". I've only seen definitions that actually specifically point to it being a ceremony or act of getting married.

By the "celebration of marriage" definition every anniversary party is a wedding as is most anniversaries spent without a party, or any random night at home celebrating anything in the marriage.

[thyme4change]

If you decide someone's opinion doesn't matter because you're going to do something to which they are opposed, then whether or not they find out is a sidenote.

I don't think their feelings are sidenotes. You could tell me that I was too chicken to be honest with certain people because I didn't want the consequences of their hurt feelings. But, as I said above, if my kids plan to have a wedding, and then elope a month before, and still go through with the big wedding, I would rather they lie to me. I don't need to know. It won't change anything, except now my feelings are hurt. Why unnecessarily hurt people's feelings?

I guess I have a different view of "honesty." I don't think it is that virtous. I see this as a monster version of answering the question "Do these jeans make my butt look big?" or "Do you like my new haircut?" Do you really answer "No hair cut in the world will detract from the ugliness of your face, sweetheart" (or "Your butt looks big in everything, maybe you should lose some weight") and expect people to fall down and worship you because you were honest? Nope, you say "It's good." So, if my kids spare my feelings by not telling me, and then I find out on my death bed - whatever.

[Deleted]

Ok. Even more so i'm good with the legal stuff being done NOW ... given that she has to apply for the appropriate paperwork to immigrate...

Firebird... you have specifically said that you will not treat a 'fake' wedding like a real one, so it would indicate it would indeed change your behavior.

You would feel deceived for not being asked to her real wedding, when in fact, she was asking you to what she considered her real wedding... and not the signing of the papers... its about the bride, not the guests...

Def of wedding... just put it in a google... 1st was A marriage ceremony esp. considered as including the associated celebrations. 2nd was The ceremony or celebration of a marriage

[Angel!]

Apr 23, 2012 15:56:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I think it comes to the same thing to be honest.

Meh, honesty is seriously over-rated. I don't see how sharing with the entire world that I got married for benefits will help anything. Some people won't care & it will hurt my relationship with those who do care.

There are some things that are just easier/best to be kept private.

[Firebird]

But, as I said above, if my kids plan to have a wedding, and then elope a month before, and still go through with the big wedding, I would rather they lie to me. I don't need to know. It won't change anything, except now my feelings are hurt. Why unnecessarily hurt people's feelings?

I prefer people to be upfront with me (obviously) but I do see what you mean and I guess it depends on the situation and how well you know the hypothetical people that you're hurting.

So let me ask you something. You say that you'd rather not know if one of your kids was deliberately flying against your wishes. What if I was your kid and you were seriously, violently opposed to me living with my boyfriend but I did it anyway and you found out about it somehow besides me telling you (say a family member spilled or something). Would you continue to pretend you didn't know, or would you confront me about it? And if you'd confront me about it, what would you expect me to do?