Big wedding when you're already married

[hoops902]

"I would think a lot of destination wedding are like this, since who has the right to officiate for foreign individuals is probably fairly complicated, id guess most are ceremonial and do not confer legal marriage at the time of wedding... "

Like I said, I'm ok with the socially accepted definition also, which might suggest they are having the ceremony and the legal marriage very close together (though I do think most states have some rules about going through the vows with an acceptable person officiating in order to become married).

[Deleted]

Really? Still?

[shanendoah]

But see hoops you're claiming that the term wedding has the automatic assumption that a legal marriage is going along with it, in all cases where a legal marriage is allowed. What Dark, Angel and I are saying is that that's not true. That there are plenty of people out there who do NOT make the assumption that a legal marriage and a wedding ceremony are inextricably tied and must happen at roughly the same time.
We are not responsible for your assumptions.
As for being a pet parent, well. I'm already one of those. I just smile and shrug when people try to wish me happy Mother's day, because trust me, I am very aware that there is a difference between a living being I can leave in the garage for 8 hours at a time but can't come in a restaurant with me, and a living being that can come in a restaurant with me, even though the other patrons will wish I could have left it in the garage.

But if I ask you to come to my wedding, talk about the ceremony, and want people to celebrate my marriage- but never say I'm getting married, couldn't I be hinting to people that we're already married. Couldn't I be dropping hints so that if they asked me a direct question, I could answer honestly?

As for hiding your brother's body in the basement, well, you deserve to get caught if you're dumb enough to not dispose of the body far, far away from you.

[Deleted]

Hoops that is not actually the definition of wedding anywhere I have found...

[hoops902]

"But see hoops you're claiming that the term wedding has the automatic assumption that a legal marriage is going along with it, in all cases where a legal marriage is allowed."

It's not an assumption, it is the DEFINITION. The definition is that it is the ceremony of getting married.

"But if I ask you to come to my wedding, talk about the ceremony, and want people to celebrate my marriage- but never say I'm getting married, couldn't I be hinting to people that we're already married."

Could you be? Yes. Should you be? No, because the definition of wedding involves the act of getting married. That's my point, if you refuse to use the ACTUAL definition of the word, then at least use the widely socially accepted definition. I feel like we've covered the literal definition sufficiently, are you claiming that you think the widely accepted social definition of a "wedding" involves having been married 5 years ago, not telling anyone, then having a "wedding" so that you can experience it? My point is proven in the fact that you feel doing it in a certain way "hints" at an alternate definition of the word. If you have to "hint" at what you REALLY mean, that means even you don't think you're using the word in the socially accepted way. You're hinting that there's something else at play rather than the actual meaning.

[hoops902]

Apr 25, 2012 12:51:11 GMT -5 oped said:

Hoops that is not actually the definition of wedding anywhere I have found...

that's the definition of Webster's and dictionary.com.

But again, I'm fine with widely socially accepted definitions also. I don't think any WIDELY socially accepted definitions include having a "wedding" 5 years after you actually got married because you wanted to. Heck, Angel already said one reason she didn't tell people is because they woudln't think it was a "real wedding". That pretty much points to the fact that if they knew the truth, she didn't think they'd consider that event an actual wedding.

[shanendoah]

From Dictionary.com
wed¡¤ding   /ˈwɛdɪ©¯/ Show Spelled[wed-ing] Show IPA
noun
1. the act or ceremony of marrying; marriage; nuptials.
2. the anniversary of a marriage, or its celebration: They invited guests to their silver wedding.
3. the act or an instance of blending or joining, especially opposite or contrasting elements: a perfect wedding of conservatism and liberalism.
4. Business Slang . a merger.


You're using the first definition. We're using the second. Both are valid definitions. So why do you get to assume that your definition is the one we should all be using?

[hoops902]

"You're using the first definition. We're using the second. Both are valid definitions. So why do you get to assume that your definition is the one we should all be using? "

You can "use" whichever one you want. But you're pretending that it's definition #1 when what you MEAN is definition #2.

It is the anniversary of a marriage, or ITS celebration, pointing back to the anniversary of the marriage. What anniversary are they celebrating? Am I celebrating my 1 year, 2 month, 14 day anniversary when I have my "wedding" that much later? really?

[hoops902]

"This confirms what I thought. Weddings have become just a big pain in the ass to those who are invited - or worse yet - have to stand up and do something for people that they really don't like all that much.

It's not fun, and everyone is looking for a "loophole" to get out of going. "

It can impact whether you'd attend without it being looking for a loophole. For example, we're going to my wife's cousin's "fake wedding" next month. My calendar was free, so we're going to celebrate with them. But if another friend was having their "real wedding", I'd be less inclined to go to a party than to an actual marriage ceremony. Likewise I might not be willing to travel as far for what boils down to a celebration than I would for a wedding. It doesn't mean people are trying to find reasons not to go, but a party to celebrate a relationship might rank lower on the importance scale than a true wedding.

[midjd]

I think it's the knowledge/intent of the person making the statement that is key. If you say "I'm getting married on June 1!" when you actually mean "I'm celebrating my anniversary on June 1!" and you truly believe the other person will assume you mean you're celebrating your anniversary on that day, not "getting married", that's one thing. A simple miscommunication, no one's fault.

If you say "I'm getting married on June 1!," you are already married, and you KNOW (or at least strongly believe) the other person is assuming that you mean Definition #1 above of "getting married," that's dishonest. You know what they're assuming, you know it's wrong, and you purposely phrased your statement in such a way to lead to that assumption (to hide the truth, for whatever reason).

[Angel!]

Apr 25, 2012 12:56:30 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Apr 25, 2012 12:51:11 GMT -5 oped said:

Hoops that is not actually the definition of wedding anywhere I have found...

that's the definition of Webster's and dictionary.com.

But again, I'm fine with widely socially accepted definitions also. I don't think any WIDELY socially accepted definitions include having a "wedding" 5 years after you actually got married because you wanted to.

Considering a number of people on here think that is an acceptable definition of wedding, I think it is fairly widely accepted.

You are seriously just arguing semantics here hoops. The word doesn't have the exact same meaning to you as it does for others. For me it means some sort of ceremony showing your commitment.

You would be mad because I used the term wedding in a way that didn't mean your definition.

Is this thread making anyone else think of when Michael Scott defined wedding on The Office?

[swamp]

Is this thread making anyone else think of when Michael Scott defined wedding on The Office?

No, it reminds me of Sam Jones from the old YM who would make up definitions of words just for the sake of arguing.

[CarolinaKat]

My idea of wedding is pledging to spend the rest of your lives together, usually in front of friends and family, because you are in love and deeply commited to each other. My idea of marriage is notifying the governing body that you wish to be considered a unit from here on out, unless you then notify them otherwise (divorce). Usually these two things (marriage and a wedding) happen within a short timeframe.

Fixed SPECIFICALLY for Firebird

[hoops902]

"Considering a number of people on here think that is an acceptable definition of wedding, I think it is fairly widely accepted.

You are seriously just arguing semantics here hoops. The word doesn't have the exact same meaning to you as it does for others. For me it means some sort of ceremony showing your commitment. "

If it's so widely accepted then why did you have to hide facts from your invitees in order to get them to show up? Do you really think that when most people get wedding invites they have any thoughts of "I wonder how long they've been married now?".


"You would be mad because I used the term wedding in a way that didn't mean your definition."

I would be mad if you intentionally deceived me in an effort to get me to do something that if I knew the truth, you think I would not do. Would you be mad if you met a guy you wanted to date and he told he had no kids, never been married, had never been in jail, didn't use drugs...then later you found out he had been married 3 times but just didn't count those because he didn't "feel" married, had 9 kids but didn't consider them his children because he didn't talk to them, had never been in "jail" because he chose to call jail "the pokey", and used heroin but didn't think heroin should be considered a drug?

Would you really just think "oh, I just made assumptions, but he was being honest with me"?

I don't care if you "use" the term wedding, I care if people are lying to me. If I know you're already married you can call it your wedding all you want because it's not deceptive. You can call it your bat mitzvah if you want as long as I know what you're actually inviting me to. I only care about the term when you're using it to be deceptive.

[hoops902]

Likewise, I would be annoyed if someone invited me to "opening night" of a play and it turned out to be just the dress rehearsal...even if it was really the first night the doors were "open".

[Angel!]

Apr 25, 2012 13:24:29 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

I only care about the term when you're using it to be deceptive.

What deception? I am inviting you to a wedding & you will be attending a traditional wedding. At the most you could call it lying through omission, because unless you actually ask me if I am already married, then I am not lying to you about it.

You just made an assumption that turned out to be incorrect & based on the stories in this thread, something that isn't even that uncommon.

Technically I never lied to anyone, they just never thought to ask. I just never bothered to mention some legal paperwork that I filled out & filed with the county.

[Deleted]

I miss Sam Jones.

[Firebird]

Would you be mad if you met a guy you wanted to date and he told he had no kids, never been married, had never been in jail, didn't use drugs...then later you found out he had been married 3 times but just didn't count those because he didn't "feel" married, had 9 kids but didn't consider them his children because he didn't talk to them, had never been in "jail" because he chose to call jail "the pokey", and used heroin but didn't think heroin should be considered a drug?



I'm at the "agree to disagree" point in this thread, especially since I don't really have time today to get into it and other people are making the points I wanted to make better.

[hoops902]

"What deception? I am inviting you to a wedding & you will be attending a traditional wedding."

You think having a wedding with someone you've been married to for several years is "traditional"?

You never lied in the same way that a guy who says "I have no kids" really means "I have 9 children, but I don't consider them "kids" anymore and you never technically asked if I had any genetic offspring who shared my dna". If you don't want to consider it lying that's fine, some people think lying is a harsh word, it's incredibly deceptive. And manipulative. I wouldn't want my friends of family to pull that with me.

I think in general at the point which you say to yourself "If I told people the truth, they might not do what I want them to, so I simply won't tell them", you're being deceptive and manipulative.

I do agree that if you're bound and determined to do it, you at least have to shoulder the burden of keeping it secret...but that's after any damage is already done in terms of making the choice to tell them or not.

[Angel!]

Apr 25, 2012 13:52:05 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

You never lied in the same way that a guy who says "I have no kids" really means "I have 9 children, but I don't consider them "kids" anymore and you never technically asked if I had any genetic offspring who shared my dna".

If I said "I'm not married", then I would be inclined to agree with you. But, given that I never said that, I don't see how the two scenarios compare at all.

It would more like if I assumed the dude didn't have kids because I never saw any around & assumed he had never been to jail because he doesn't seem like the type, and then finding out my assumptions were wrong. Well, he never technically lied, just failed to mention things & I never bothered to ask.

But, fine I'm just a deceptive bitch that does whatever I can to manipulating people into giving me lots of presents & doing whatever I say.

[midjd]

No you're not, Angel. I do agree with Hoops' argument on semantics, but I don't think that you are deceptive, a liar, or anything like that.

I don't want to argue this anymore... it is an interesting discussion, and if it were just the OP couple that would be fine (neither of whom will ever read this thread, I'm sure) but when we're applying it to other posters' situations and hurting their feelings, that's not good.

[hoops902]

Apr 25, 2012 14:14:07 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Apr 25, 2012 13:52:05 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

You never lied in the same way that a guy who says "I have no kids" really means "I have 9 children, but I don't consider them "kids" anymore and you never technically asked if I had any genetic offspring who shared my dna".

If I said "I'm not married", then I would be inclined to agree with you. But, given that I never said that, I don't see how the two scenarios compare at all.

It would more like if I assumed the dude didn't have kids because I never saw any around & assumed he had never been to jail because he doesn't seem like the type, and then finding out my assumptions were wrong. Well, he never technically lied, just failed to mention things & I never bothered to ask.

But, fine I'm just a deceptive bitch that does whatever I can to manipulating people into giving me lots of presents & doing whatever I say.

It's exactly the same, you're making up a definition of what "wedding" means to you, he's making up a definition of what "having kids" means to him. Neither is the traditional definition and both are designed to be deceptive while skirting the actual definition. "I have no kids" is every bit as truthful as "I'm having a wedding". It's all based on how you choose to define each word.

[formerroomate99]

When you say X when you mean Y and know full well that the person you are talking to will think you mean X, then you are a liar.

When you say, "I'm becoming a mommy. I'm adopting a cat." you aren't a lying. When you say "I'm becoming a mommy" and nothing else when you are adopting a cat, then you are lying.

I think in general at the point which you say to yourself "If I told people the truth, they might not do what I want them to, so I simply won't tell them", you're being deceptive and manipulative.

But you gotta use SOME meaningful definition, use the literal definition, use the socially accepted definition, but making up your own definition which no one can reasonably expect to be the definition just means you can say anything you want and never be held accountable for telling the truth.

[CarolinaKat]

When someone is talking about 'pot' I think about the illegal substance and not the traditional definition.

From Dictionary:
pot
noun
1. a container of earthenware, metal, etc., usually round and deep and having a handle or handles and often a lid, used for cooking, serving, and other purposes.
2. such a container with its contents: a pot of stew.
3. the amount contained in or held by a pot; potful.
4. a flowerpot.
5. a container of liquor or other drink: a pot of ale.

[8 Bit WWBG]

Man, I have a co-worker who had 3 "weddings" to the same woman. They did a "legal marriage", then a "wedding" in her country, and then a "wedding" in his country.

But I'm pretty sure everyone was kept in the loop. Hell, he sent e-mails to almost everyone in the agency!

[Deleted]

Ceremony of marriage... You mean the vows and the prayer and the giving away , etc .... I'm guessing that all those ceremonial traditions can/ are taking place at the wedding, regardless of whether or not the legal marriage stuff was signed yesterday or last year.... You are just saying the ceremony is not valid if the legal marriage stuff took place last year.., I'm saying the ceremony is a different thing (and personally I'm thankful i never wanted one...)

[swamp]

Apr 25, 2012 14:26:03 GMT -5 8 Bit WWBG said:

Man, I have a co-worker who had 3 "weddings" to the same woman. They did a "legal marriage", then a "wedding" in her country, and then a "wedding" in his country.

But I'm pretty sure everyone was kept in the loop. Hell, he sent e-mails to almost everyone in the agency!

Some doctors DH works with did that too.

She's Indian, he's American. They did a quickie JOP wedding for their marriage license. Then they went to India to get married in a tradiitional Indian wedding to make her parents happy. Then they got married on a mountain top in Peru as their spiritual personal ceremony since they are both avid hikers/mountain climbers. It probably would have been difficult to have the Indian and Peruvian ceremonies recognized in the US, hence the JOP wedding.

They told everyone what they were doing, though, so no dishonesty.

[The J]

Apr 25, 2012 14:29:46 GMT -5 swamp said:

Some doctors DH works with did that too.

She's Indian, he's American. They did a quickie JOP wedding for their marriage license. Then they went to India to get married in a tradiitional Indian wedding to make her parents happy. Then they got married on a mountain top in Peru as their spiritual personal ceremony since they are both avid hikers/mountain climbers. It probably would have been difficult to have the Indian and Peruvian ceremonies recognized in the US, hence the JOP wedding.

They told everyone what they were doing, though, so no dishonesty.

I don't know how difficult it was, but it could have been more for immigration issues. If one of them was a foreign national, their visa may have been close to expiring, so the JOP wedding would extend it so they could come back into the country after the other weddings.

[swamp]

Apr 25, 2012 14:32:45 GMT -5 The J said:

Apr 25, 2012 14:29:46 GMT -5 swamp said:

Some doctors DH works with did that too.

She's Indian, he's American. They did a quickie JOP wedding for their marriage license. Then they went to India to get married in a tradiitional Indian wedding to make her parents happy. Then they got married on a mountain top in Peru as their spiritual personal ceremony since they are both avid hikers/mountain climbers. It probably would have been difficult to have the Indian and Peruvian ceremonies recognized in the US, hence the JOP wedding.

They told everyone what they were doing, though, so no dishonesty.

I don't know how difficult it was, but it could have been more for immigration issues. If one of them was a foreign national, their visa may have been close to expiring, so the JOP wedding would extend it so they could come back into the country after the other weddings.

She's here on what I believe is called an H-1 or J-1 visa, it's a visa that allows medical professional to serve underserved areas, so I don't think it was an immigration issue.

ETA: I'm on the board of the hospital, so I know if one of the docs is having immigration issues. And they also told DH why they did the JOP civil ceremony.

[Firebird]

As for hiding your brother's body in the basement, well, you deserve to get caught if you're dumb enough to not dispose of the body far, far away from you.

The best place to hide something is in plain sight! I debated putting him on the lawn and pretending he was a scarecrow but I figured people might be tipped off by the smell.

By the way, this is what I've meant all along by saying "I'm an only child" - I had a brother, but he needed killin' so I took care of it.

It's not fun, and everyone is looking for a "loophole" to get out of going.

I'm not! I've only been to two weddings in my life, and one of them was my own. I'm all about going to more weddings.

My idea of marriage is notifying the governing body that you wish to be considered a unit from here on out, unless you then notify them otherwise (divorce). Usually these two things happen within a short timeframe. [/b]

Marriage and divorce?

But, fine I'm just a deceptive bitch that does whatever I can to manipulating people into giving me lots of presents & doing whatever I say.

Just like a true woman (I kid, I kid.)