Big wedding when you're already married

[Firebird]

I may bow out of this debate now because I don't want you or anyone else to think I think less of you, or am judging your marriage, or anything like that - I'm not, at all - but if that's how I'm coming across, I should shut my mouth now.

I get what you're saying. But yeah, maybe I should shut up now too if clarifying my position is coming across as going on a tirade

[midjd]

Yet - the decision is theirs.

No one in the entire 15 pages of this thread has said it isn't.

I will make a note to myself that my opinions may no longer take the form of "elongated tirades", lest I be accused of trying to make a decision for someone else...

[Firebird]

I'm not sure where the terms "real" and "fake" marriage popped up, but I don't think the legal marriage is automatically "real" marriage, or that anything other than that is a "fake" marriage.

To be fair, I did use the term "fake wedding" early on in the thread (referring to a wedding ceremony that people thought was the start of a legal marriage and really wasn't) and I wish I hadn't now because it apparently came across as me being dismissive of a non-legal marriage, which is not how I feel at all.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I just can't imagine for a moment why you wasted countless hours of your life contemplating and analyzing a decision someone else made about their wedding.

Yeah let's get back to bashing people on welfare and having elongated rants about how they buy crab legs, drive escalades and how we all feel they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

[swamp]

Apr 25, 2012 11:33:53 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I just can't imagine for a moment why you wasted countless hours of your life contemplating and analyzing a decision someone else made about their wedding.

Yeah let's get back to bashing people on welfare and having elongated rants about how they buy crab legs, drive escalades and how we all feel they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

I prefer to talk about my useless degree and how I'm doomed to a life of poverty.

Or, we can talk about what bad parents we are.

[Firebird]

Obviously many of us disagree on this subject - and that's fine - but if someone is disagreeing with me, I at least want them to disagree with what I'm actually saying and not what they think I'm saying

Exactly, thank you. The reason I got so heated yesterday is because I suddenly felt like I was being accused of not thinking gay marriage was valid or real or whatever, and that's not my position at all. So I took pains to correct whatever I said that gave that impression.

I don't care if people disagree with me, and I've said many times that my opinion on other people's weddings/marriages does not matter, but I don't want words put in my mouth and I don't want to have to defend myself for holding a position I don't actually hold at all.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I prefer to talk about my useless degree and how I'm doomed to a life of poverty.

You should have consulted YM before you got your degree.

It's not judging, it's helping.

[swamp]

I don't care if people disagree with me, and I've said many times that my opinion on other people's weddings/marriages does not matter, but I don't want words put in my mouth and I don't want to have to defend myself for holding a position I don't actually hold at all.

You're right, it doesn't matter, but if I'm footing the bill, it matters.

[swamp]

You should have consulted YM before you got your degree.

Al Gore was still inventing the internet when I applied to college.

[Angel!]

Apr 25, 2012 11:21:34 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I'm not saying EVERY couple who keeps it quiet does so for that reason, but it does seem like people get awfully defensive about their right to keep the legal marriage part a secret.

Probably because the implication by others that those who keep it a secret are deceptive, manipulative, just looking for gifts, etc tends to put a person on the defense.

One of the reasons I kept it a secret & I'm surprised it hasn't really been mentioned, is that people might consider it somewhat fraudulant to get married for the benefits, which is pretty much what I did. Yeah, we were intending to get married & already engaged, but if it hadn't been for the benefits, we never would have gotten married at that point.

I didn't feel married & pretty much made it as a business decision, plus it wasn't really my first choice, but the way he wanted to do it. So I didn't want to share it with people - I didn't want the condemnation, I didn't want to be a joke by having a wedding later, I just didn't want to talk about it with others. I still wanted the real wedding, which in my mind would have been the real start to our marriage.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Al Gore was still inventing the internet when I applied to college

I still reserve the right to get into an elongated rant and bully you into making the decision I think you should have.

[midjd]

I just can't imagine for a moment why you wasted countless hours of your life contemplating and analyzing a decision someone else made about their wedding.

Some of us just like to debate - I find it fun. And since 99% of my job involves trying to state things clearly and make sure my bosses/coworkers/the public understand what I'm saying (and not what they think I'm saying), these types of threads are good practice.

Most of our "subjects" are usually based on real-life - a friend, a coworker, a relative. Look at the threads Cawaiu starts about his family. And most of this thread has centered on somewhat academic concepts of weddings, marriage, etc., not on the achievements/failings of the individual couple discussed in the OP. Just because something is a good topic for debate doesn't mean the OP is "obsessed" with the individuals used as illustration...

[Firebird]

Apr 25, 2012 11:37:27 GMT -5 swamp said:

I don't care if people disagree with me, and I've said many times that my opinion on other people's weddings/marriages does not matter, but I don't want words put in my mouth and I don't want to have to defend myself for holding a position I don't actually hold at all.

You're right, it doesn't matter, but if I'm footing the bill, it matters.

Which was in fact part of my original premise, if anyone remembers back that far ;D

[shanendoah]

Ah, but there is a difference between saying "we're getting married" and "we're having a wedding". Yes, if I tell you I'm getting married, I mean legally, but if I invite you to my wedding, it is only your assumption that legal marriage is happening at the same time. I am not responsible for your assumptions.

Now, I think there is a fundamental difference in the way we view this, and that's fine. I do not expect to change anyone's mind. But I have one more question about both Firebird's and hoops's belief that GUESTS have a right to know what they are attending. Why?
And by that I mean- where is the harm?
I know, in the OP case, where the harm is- it is to parents who might not pay for the ceremony if they knew the truth. They are being deceived in order to get something they might otherwise not give. There's harm there.
But where is the harm to the regular guest? How does it harm you, in any way, if my wedding takes place a year after my marriage? How does that change the wedding from being a celebration of my marriage? How does that change the wedding from being the place where I stand up in front of my community and pledge my love to another person?
What gives you a right to know my legal status? How is that any of your business? And if it is not your business, where is the harm in you knowing or not knowing or misunderstanding my legal status?
Again, I am not responsible for your assumptions. If you want to feel deceived, that is your problem, not mine. Do not expect me to feel like I am deceiving you.

And as for gay marriage- even if legal marriage is not a possibility for them, Powers of Attorney are, as are Advanced Directives. Is it only a realy gay marriage if it happens at roughly the same time that those legal documents are signed? What if they signed those pieces of paperwork years ago, but only now feel ready to stand up in front of their community to pledge their commitment? What if they are having a commitment ceremony without having done those pieces of paperwork?
Since we are tying the wedding ceremony inextricably to the legal paperwork, why shouldn't gay couples be held to the same standard, even if their legal paperwork is different?
What if a straight couple decided not to get married, but still did all the legal paperwork for POA and Advanced Directive, and held a wedding?
What if my DH and I, at our wedding, instead of signing a marriage certificate, signed articles of incorporation, making us a single entity in the eyes of the law?

Let's take a different perspective on this, one that I know Firebird can completely relate to (though she may not see them as the same thing, and that's fine) - pregnancy.
Most women are pregnant for months before they tell the general population. There were threads on this board where posters thought that Firebird might be pregnant but then, due to her answers, decided she wasn't. These threads, in fact, took place while Firebird was pregnant, but before she was ready to share the news.
I would say, that by the definitions being given here, Firebird was being deliberately deceitful, and so do those other posters have the right to be upset, to feel deceived by Firebird? After all, they asked her a direct question- or posted a direct assumption, and she did not answer directly? Do those other posters have a right to feel deceived by me, since I also knew that Firebird was pregnant, but did not say anything. I could have told them the truth, but purposely chose not to.
Now, we all know the reasons that women don't share pregnancy news right away. But some women do share the news right away. That is their choice, so should we call those who wait 4-5 months deceitful for not telling us about their medical status. Especially since, in many cases, not even very close friends about the pregnancy until it is in the later stages.
My BFF, after multiple miscarriages, didn't tell anyone other than her DH and DOD, about her first successful pregnancy until about 6 months in. I'm not even certain the DH's parents knew. Did I have the "right" to feel deceived because she didn't mention it to me in the months before then, even though we talked and I asked her how she was?
The answer is no, because it is none of our business. We do not expect people to share their medical status with us just because we ask. Why in the world should we be entitled to know their legal status?

I will add a caveat: Just like you should tell all your medical providers you are pregnant, even in the very early stages, your legal professionals should also know your actual legal status. It is not because there would be harm to them, but because it prevents harm to you.

[Angel!]

Apr 25, 2012 11:17:48 GMT -5 midjd said:

I may bow out of this debate now because I don't want you or anyone else to think I think less of you, or am judging your marriage, or anything like that - I'm not, at all - but if that's how I'm coming across, I should shut my mouth now.

Come on now. We all know you are judging each & every one of us & spending countless hours doing so. Just admit it.

[swamp]

Apr 25, 2012 11:41:34 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Apr 25, 2012 11:37:27 GMT -5 swamp said:

You're right, it doesn't matter, but if I'm footing the bill, it matters.

Which was in fact part of my original premise, if anyone remembers back that far ;D

I remember it very well. I'm pretty live and let live, but if you want me to pay for it, you'll hear my opinion.

[Firebird]

I do not expect to change anyone's mind. But I have one more question about both Firebird's and hoops's belief that GUESTS have a right to know what they are attending. Why?

I know I said a few times that they have a right to know but actually, I've changed my stance on that one because of this thread and I think that's been apparent in my responses on the last few pages because I've repeatedly said that you can do whatever you want and it's no one else's business.

My continuing position is that while you do have the right to do what you want and not tell anyone, it's a RISK. Because if you keep it under wraps and you are found out, there are most likely going to be hurt feelings.

There were threads on this board where posters thought that Firebird might be pregnant but then, due to her answers, decided she wasn't.

I seriously have to get to work but I DO have to take issue with this because if you were to go back and read my responses, I didn't ever lie about whether I was pregnant. No one ever asked me directly on the thread. People assumed, and I neither confirmed nor denied the assumptions, but no one asked me directly out in the open. Plenty of people PM'd me and asked me, and I DID tell them the truth. I don't lie when I'm asked a direct question.

Had I wanted to keep it a secret, I shouldn't have ever been hinting around at it - but having done so, it WOULD have been deceptive of me to lie about it. Which is why I would have just said nothing, if I didn't want people to know.

But yes, I consider this completely different. A more applicable analogy might be if someone was adopting a child and constantly used the term "having a baby." By saying, "I'm having a baby" people assume that you are pregnant (or that your partner is) because that's just generally how people understand that particular phrase. And if you were saying "I'm having a baby" when what you really meant was "I'm adopting a child," I'd consider that deceptive in a similar way.

Does it make a difference? Is it anyone else's business? Perhaps not, but you're still using a term that is bound to mislead people and make them think one thing is happening when something very different actually is happening.

[Deleted]

If my child had me paying for a big wedding and I later found out they were already married before the event, I'd be upset. If they got married secretly, and told me after the fact I'd probably be hurt if I had no idea they were even thinking about it. If they then asked me to help pay for a wedding, it would depend on the circumstances whether I would or not but I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem helping pay for a reception. If they got married secretly and they decided to pay for a wedding later, I'd have no problem with that.

Even as a guest, if someone had me take time off work, spend money to travel and all that to see them finally get married (like in the story I mentioned way back when), I'd be a little upset to find out I went through all that to see them finally get married and they still weren't. Maybe that one is a little different because it wasn't about taking vows in front of God or what was in their hearts regardless of the legal status. They still weren't married in any kind of way after the event.

[quotequeen]

Apr 25, 2012 11:29:02 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Why do so many people think they have "the right to know" about other people? Will it affect whether they buy a 2 slot or a 4 slot toaster? whether they attend or not?

FB has said it wouldn't affect anything for her, but it would absolutely impact whether I would attend or not.

[shanendoah]

I seriously have to get to work but I DO have to take issue with this because if you were to go back and read my responses, I didn't ever lie about whether I was pregnant. No one ever asked me directly on the thread. People assumed, and I neither confirmed nor denied the assumptions, but no one asked me directly out in the open. Plenty of people PM'd me and asked me, and I DID tell them the truth. I don't lie when I'm asked a direct question.

But that's exactly my point. You don't feel like you were being deceitful at all. After all, it was them making assumptions. If you were asked a direct question, you answered honestly. How is that any different from you making assumptions about what a wedding means? You assume that because there is a wedding, a legal marriage must be happening at the same time. You are free to assume that, but unless you directly ask the couple involved, and they then lie directly to you, how are they actually being deceitful?
Now again, feelings are feelings, there's nothing wrong with any feeling, it is how we act on them. But if you would feel decieved by a couple who let you make your assumptions, but to whom you never asked a direct question, isn't it a possibility that people whom you let make their assumptions, but never asked you a direct question could also feel deceived?
(And this is picking on you, and I will stop now.)

I'm pretty certain I haven't said "I'm having a baby". I'm pretty certain what I've said is that we're in the process of adopting. (Partly because there's no guarantee we will get a baby. We might very well adopt a toddler.)
But what if I said "We're becoming parents" or "I'm going to be a mommy"? If you assume that means I'm pregnant, but I am adopting, did I deceive? Again, I am not responsible for your assumptions, and you are not responsible for mine.

Again, it's semantics, but it is the differenct to me between "I'm getting married" and "I'm having a wedding".

And I would also like to say- I do not think anyone who has posted on this topic is anti-gay marriage. I do think that because of their (wrongly) unique status, though, it makes a good counter example.

[Firebird]

shanendoah - there's a difference between hiding something completely and not hiding it but deliberately misleading people into believing that it's something else.

If I'm hiding my brother's body in my basement and I don't say anything to anyone about it, that's one thing. If I say that my brother is hanging out in my basement (making it sound like he's alive when he's really dead), that's something else. The former is simply concealing private information; the latter is a deliberate deception. It's an apples-and-oranges comparison.

[hoops902]

"How is that any different from you making assumptions about what a wedding means?"

1. Wedding has a definition. It is the act or ceremony of marrying.

2. Making assumptions is one thing, I can't believe all the people who think it's wrong to make assumptions that the words people use are the actual words they mean. I don't think it's an issue to assume that when someone chooses to use a certain phrase, they actually mean it. Otherwise the entire language is useless if everyone has to guess whatever definition others are making up that aren't the real meaning of words.

"But what if I said "We're becoming parents" or "I'm going to be a mommy"? If you assume that means I'm pregnant, but I am adopting, did I deceive? Again, I am not responsible for your assumptions, and you are not responsible for mine."

Those statements though are true. You're not responsible for my assumptions, but you are responsible if you tell me you're going to be a mommy and it turns out you're just adopting a cat and you consider that "being a mommy". If you state a truth, and someone else makes assumptions, that's on them. If you state a lie (or make up your own definition of a word which isn't it's actual definition either literally or a widely socially acceptable definition), and people assume you are telling the truth, that's on you.

[thyme4change]

Wedding has a definition. It is the act or ceremony of marrying.

Can you marry the same person more than once?

[hoops902]

You can go with saying "wedding" doesn't go by it's literal definition, even if you do, there's a socially accepted meaning, which is that 2 people are getting married. I'm not a stickler for "use the dictionary definition", but pretending that using the word "wedding" does not imply that you are getting married is just silly. Why not just invite people to a "wedding" and when they show up it's a timeshare pitch? If you told them the truth they wouldn't come, just lie to em to get htem to do what you want them to do.

[hoops902]

Apr 25, 2012 12:28:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Wedding has a definition. It is the act or ceremony of marrying.

Can you marry the same person more than once?

If you get divorced in between.

[shanendoah]

Quotequeen: So just out of curiosity, in a case like my BFF, where they got married because he was about to be deployed for 6 months, and then had their religious wedding ceremony 9 months later- would you have refused to attend?

I'll be honest. I have traveled for three weddings in my entire life, and one I was 11 for, so I wasn't exactly making the choice. But I make the decision based on my relationship with the bride/groom, not based on the legal status. I would have gone to FireBird's weeding even if they had eloped to Vegas three months earlier, or if they had decided they never actually wanted to get married, but wanted to celebrate their love in front of friends.
I would not feel deceived if I found out today that FireBird and her Schmoopy weren't actually married. (After this thread I might feel like she was a hypocrite, but I wouldn't feel deceived.)

So here is the answer to the OP-
The parents of the groom who are being purposely swindled have every right to feel deceived and to act on that. (I think everyone agrees on that point.)
As guests, some of us would feel deceived if we found out there wasn't a legal marriage taking place at the same time as the wedding, and some of us would not.
For those who would feel deceived, some would go and celebrate anyway, and some would decide not to go.
And we all like judging others, because if we didn't, why are we spending time on YM? ;D

[midjd]

If you state a truth, and someone else makes assumptions, that's on them. If you state a lie (or make up your own definition of a word which isn't it's actual definition either literally or a widely socially acceptable definition), and people assume you are telling the truth, that's on you.

Exactly. I don't think that's inconsistent or illogical at all.

[Deleted]

The thing about 'telling the truth' and 'being honest' about it is, if they aren't using your definition doesn't mean they are lying.... They just don't see it that way.

I would think a lot of destination wedding are like this, since who has the right to officiate for foreign individuals is probably fairly complicated, id guess most are ceremonial and do not confer legal marriage at the time of wedding...

[midjd]

I wouldn't say they're "lying", necessarily - but if you use a definition you know is not the typical/legal/common definition of the term, knowing that people will assume something different, you're not being completely truthful.

Hoops' example of saying "I'm becoming a mommy" when adopting a cat is a good one. The person making that statement knows that most people will assume they mean they're having a human baby. Not correcting an incorrect assumption is one thing, but if you're deliberately phrasing it that way to GET people to make an untrue assumption, and then not correcting the assumption, that is a little deceitful.

[hoops902]

"The thing about 'telling the truth' and 'being honest' about it is, if they aren't using your definition doesn't mean they are lying.... They just don't see it that way."

It's not "my" definition. "MY" definition of "we're having a baby" means "you're pregnant and expecting a child". If what you really meant is "we're adopting a baby" or something else which actually fits the phrase, I'm ok with that. My bad for making that assumption, even though "we're having a baby" is a pretty specific phrase socially, if not definitionally. But you gotta use SOME meaningful definition, use the literal definition, use the socially accepted definition, but making up your own definition which no one can reasonably expect to be the definition just means you can say anything you want and never be held accountable for telling the truth.