raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,769
|
Post by raeoflyte on Apr 24, 2012 21:37:14 GMT -5
I've gotten the, 'are you two really married' more than once just because I didn't change my last name. -------------------------- Where I live, your legal name is the name you were born with. Women don't take their husbands' names after marriage. I'm so moving to Canada!
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,769
|
Post by raeoflyte on Apr 24, 2012 21:40:35 GMT -5
...:::"Exactly! You can't get to know anyone if you don't ever ask a nosy question, and sometimes it opens up a wound for someone, and it may come across as a judgment. When it wasn't meant to hurt someone, most people just let it go.":::... I surmise that you have had to put up with all sorts of ignorant questions over the years. I'm glad you were able to "just let them go". You are a better person than I am. ![](http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/yeahthat.gif) I was hesitant to ask about the "piece of paper" and state thing because I knew I was just being nosey and I figured people already stay in your business IRL. Plus I didn't want to seem rude or offend, even if I am just some anonymous person on a message board. But I figured you were smart enough to know you weren't obligated to answer and all would be well if you just ignored the question. Thanks for answering though. I wouldn't bring it up here if it bothered me to talk about. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) 99% of the time I'm happy to answer questions irl as well.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 18, 2024 8:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 21:47:12 GMT -5
Whew! I'm glad you said that.
So may I see your piece of paper now? I kid, I kid. ;D
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 24, 2012 22:02:47 GMT -5
Some of us would just like to know what we're being invited to. I don't want to be invited to wedding when there is no actual wedding taking place. I don't want to be invited to a birthday dinner which by the definition of the inviter turns out to not include any food, because they think if they tell me there's no food I won't come so they call it a dinner to get me to show up. I don't want to be invited to a baptism which turns out to be a church fundraiser because they're calling the fundraising effort a baptism instead of a fundraising effort.
So yes, while I understand that to "you" this is your "real wedding"...by definition, it is not. I'm not talking about what popped up when you googled it, or what your friend's friend told you a wedding meant, I'm talking about both the actual definition, and the generally accepted social definition, which is that it is 2 people getting married. It's not when you "feel" married, it's when you ARE married.
I just don't all of the secrecy designed to trick people into doing things that you think they wouldn't do if told the truth. If you think people would look down on your or not want to come if they knew the truth, do you really even want those people there in the first place?
I never thought "I don't want people to lie to me in order to trick me into doing something they think I wouldn't if I knew the truth" would have so many opponents.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 24, 2012 22:36:13 GMT -5
Whew! I'm glad you said that. So may I see your piece of paper now? I kid, I kid. ;D Seriously, raeoflyte - if we can't see it, then it didn't really happen ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png)
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Apr 24, 2012 22:36:16 GMT -5
Gay marriage aside, how do feel about a "marriage" that is strictly for the sake of a green card or health insurance benefits? It happens, and it happens quite often. They have that legal piece of paper of a government-sanctioned marriage. Is it more of a "valid" marriage than that of a couple who has pledged their love and commitment to each other, sans the judicial hoops? You seem to place a great deal of importance on that legal bit of papyrus. Evidently, others don't.
|
|
quotequeen
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 15:51:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by quotequeen on Apr 25, 2012 7:50:25 GMT -5
Gay marriage aside, how do feel about a "marriage" that is strictly for the sake of a green card or health insurance benefits? It happens, and it happens quite often. They have that legal piece of paper of a government-sanctioned marriage. Is it more of a "valid" marriage than that of a couple who has pledged their love and commitment to each other, sans the judicial hoops? You seem to place a great deal of importance on that legal bit of papyrus. Evidently, others don't. How do you feel about it in what context? Generally you aren't invited to a big hoopla to celebrate a marriage that is strictly for green card purposes. But if I knew that was the reason for the wedding and the couple was not actually committed to each other, I wouldn't go to whatever the event was.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2012 7:59:39 GMT -5
![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/buttons/K1.png) for Hoops!
|
|
quotequeen
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 15:51:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by quotequeen on Apr 25, 2012 7:59:49 GMT -5
As far as gay marriage is concerned, if you're in a state that doesn't allow it, and the gay couple refers to their commitment ceremony as a wedding, nobody is deceived because everybody already knows that they can't legally get married.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Apr 25, 2012 8:04:18 GMT -5
Exactly. In this state, gay marriage exists only as a concept, not a legal term. Weltz, interesting that you'd bring up that as an example - I have a friend who married someone for immigration benefits. They don't even live in the same state. But when she refers to him to others as her "friend", it bugs me just as much as in my initial example (when someone refers to her live-in as her "husband") - because neither is accurate. This guy is my friend's husband, even if they don't live together or sleep together or even like each other that much. (ETA - once she actually did call him her husband but used air quotes, that was even worse ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) ) It may not make sense to anyone else, and maybe we need a non-legal term that EVERYONE can use to define their relationship status (not Schmoopy, though). ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2012 8:07:23 GMT -5
Could have used ISO! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
|
|
InsertCoolName
Familiar Member
Joined: Mar 1, 2011 17:32:48 GMT -5
Posts: 972
|
Post by InsertCoolName on Apr 25, 2012 8:07:40 GMT -5
A wedding and a marriage are not the same thing. I think that the focus should be more on the marriage and not the wedding. A wedding is an event. A marriage is a lifetime commitment.
They are not the same thing. They shouldn't be treated as the same thing. You can have a marriage without a wedding. And you can have a wedding without a marriage.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 18, 2024 8:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 8:07:42 GMT -5
"Some of us would just like to know what we're being invited to. I don't want to be invited to wedding when there is no actual wedding taking place."
There are some people that believe if the wedding isn't in chruch, it isn't a real wedding. I have an uncle who believes that if there isn't an open bar, it isn't a real wedding. Does it need a full sit down meal to be a real wedding ? If the bride and groom decide to sky dive into an outdoor ceremony, does it 'count' ? or must all of the 'customary traditions of an 'actual wedding' take place ?
Here is my semantics interpretation. People seem to be saying there is a 'legal' definition of wedding. I'd like to see it pointed out to me. There is a legal definition of marriage most places... but I do not see a 'legal' definition of wedding. The dictionary definition is a ceremony or celebration of a marriage... Why should it matter to ME how, when, where, on what terms the ceremony/celebration of that marriage occurs ??
I am always willing to look at the 'legal' definition of wedding if someone can find me one...
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2012 8:08:46 GMT -5
But, like QQ said, if it's obvious that a person is marrying for reasons other than love, you are aware of it and can choose to be involved or not.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Apr 25, 2012 8:09:17 GMT -5
I never said anything about the definition of a wedding, I said there are legal definitions of "husband" and "wife" and "marriage".
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 18, 2024 8:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 8:17:48 GMT -5
Its has been confused several times though, although you might not have confused them...
The point is, the 'marriage' and the 'wedding' are not inherently the same. Wedding by definition includes the celebration, the traditions, the ceremony of acknowledging and commemorating a marriage. This doe NOT have to take place at the time of the legal paperwork. If you are invited to a wedding... you are invited to attend the celbrations, traditions and ceremony which reflect how the bride and groom wish their marriage to be acknowledged and commemorated.... it is not about you, and it is not about the legal paperwork... its about how THEY choose to acknowledge and commemorate...
There is NO uniform accepted definition of wedding. They are all different.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,869
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2012 8:20:55 GMT -5
But if you know they are already married, then you know. You aren't lying about it. DF and his ex got married before their wedding for a very bad reason. But everyone who came to the wedding knew it and HE paid for it. Not mommy and daddy.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Apr 25, 2012 9:22:39 GMT -5
It's a casualty of the profession, but I have a problem when terms with specific legal definitions are misused. Thyme's "Schmoopy" is the perfect example. EVERYONE in a committed relationship is free to call their - whatever - their "Schmoopy". You love em, you want to be together, they're your Schmoopy. But to call them your husband - or your wife - when you are not married (but are able to legally marry) implies a legal relationship that does not exist. But, in at least a few states there can be common law marriage & part of being common law married is presenting yourself as married (husband & wife) despite the lack of a license. So, at least in those few states calling you SO your husband can indeed make the marriage legal. So, if you present yourself as married, then it can be argued that you are legally married.
|
|
quotequeen
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 15:51:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,448
|
Post by quotequeen on Apr 25, 2012 10:44:43 GMT -5
There are some people that believe if the wedding isn't in chruch, it isn't a real wedding. I have an uncle who believes that if there isn't an open bar, it isn't a real wedding. Does it need a full sit down meal to be a real wedding ? If the bride and groom decide to sky dive into an outdoor ceremony, does it 'count' ? or must all of the 'customary traditions of an 'actual wedding' take place ? But again, people aren't being deceived in those circumstances. If you think it's not a real wedding if it's not in a church, you can look at the invitation, see the location is not a church, and decide whether to attend or not. Plenty of people (including me) think bars should be open at weddings, but I doubt your uncle really believes the couple isn't actually married if they had a cash bar.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2012 10:51:01 GMT -5
The point is, the 'marriage' and the 'wedding' are not inherently the same.
I don't think anyone is saying that they are. But I think we are still at the point where inviting people to your (heterosexual*) wedding implies that you are becoming legally wed - unless otherwise stated.
And no, you don't HAVE to otherwise state - but you might run the risk of people feeling deceived if you invite them to your wedding and it doesn't roughly coincide with the start of your legal marriage. Obviously, it's a subject people have very different feelings and opinions about - some won't care, some will.
*If your state doesn't allow same-sex marriage then of course there's no risk of people thinking you are becoming legally wed - everyone knows you can't and it's a ceremony to celebrate your commitment in the only way you can. My point is that I don't think that's the automatic presumption with the word "wedding" in a heterosexual context. Some people - clearly not all, but some - assume when you are straight and you say "we're getting married" that you mean legally married.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,769
|
Post by raeoflyte on Apr 25, 2012 11:00:42 GMT -5
*If your state doesn't allow same-sex marriage then of course there's no risk of people thinking you are becoming legally wed - everyone knows you can't and it's a ceremony to celebrate your commitment in the only way you can. Really not trying to harp on semantics, but statements like this read to me that same sex marriages still aren't 'real' enough. It reads that only the legal acknowledgment makes a marriage real, and since I don't hold to that belief, I don't care if any marriage is legally recognized. I don't think that FB feels that way about same-sex marriage, but that is how I'm reading that and many other statements in the thread.
|
|
Plain Old Petunia
Senior Member
bloom where you are planted
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 2:09:44 GMT -5
Posts: 4,840
|
Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 25, 2012 11:02:48 GMT -5
And no, you don't HAVE to otherwise state - but you might run the risk of people feeling deceived if you invite them to your wedding and it doesn't roughly coincide with the start of your legal marriage. Obviously, it's a subject people have very different feelings and opinions about - some won't care, some will. I felt not only deceived, but manipulated. The Bridezilla even stated "Oh, I didn't want people to know, because then they might not travel out of town for our big day!" (Did I mention it was a destination wedding?) If people want to go anyway, then fine. If they don't, then fine. Be fricking honest, for pity's sake. It's just not cool to manipulate and deceive your friends and family.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2012 11:10:58 GMT -5
I don't think that FB feels that way about same-sex marriage, but that is how I'm reading that and many other statements in the thread.
I don't feel that way at all (and this is where I feel like I should just shut up and let it go, but I can't until I feel like I've made my position plain). IF you have the option of getting legally married then yes, I think it's deceptive to say you're getting married when you don't mean legally wed.
But since gay couples can't get legally married, the only option available to them is a wedding of some sort to celebrate their non-legal marriage. It has nothing to do with "real enough," it's just a legal reality that currently gay couples cannot legally wed.
A colleague of mine recently married his long-term partner. Of course I consider him to be his husband. He's as much his husband as DH is to me, the only difference is that we have the legal certificate which they would have gotten in a second had it been available to them. But it's not.
I don't know how to make this any clearer. I don't consider gay marriages to be any less valid because they're not legal marriages because the legal marriage option is NOT OPEN TO THEM, and it SHOULD be, and if it was then I would feel exactly the same way as I do about straight marriages.
In other words, if gay marriage became legal today, then I would consider it deceptive/misleading/manipulative for a gay couple to say "we're getting married" if they didn't mean they were getting legally married. Exactly as I consider it deceptive/misleading/manipulative for a straight couple to say that right now.
But since they CANNOT get legally married, there's no presumption of that happening during their wedding. So right NOW if a gay couple says, "We're getting married" then there's no chance of misleading anyone that they mean legally married. Everyone knows they're just talking about the ceremony.
If a straight couple said "we're getting married" and then clarified that they weren't doing the legal wedding for another ten years, they just wanted to have a commitment ceremony, then it wouldn't be misleading. Everyone would know. And no, you don't HAVE to tell everyone that if you don't want to - but if you don't, you might risk people being upset when they find out they're not actually watching you get legally married because that's what some people tend to assume it means when the option is there.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2012 11:13:34 GMT -5
And they don't owe you or anybody else an explanation.
I've already conceded this point many, many times. No, they don't HAVE to explain anything. They don't have to do anything they don't want to do. Marriage can have a private meaning between a couple. I'm sure it DOES have a private meaning between a couple most of the time. But straight couples "getting married" has a very specific meaning to many people. So it's not totally crazy that people might feel lied to if you mean something totally different when you say that and you don't clarify.
So yes, of course you're entitled to do whatever you want but you do run the risk of people feeling misled or lied to if they find out that you were inviting them to your wedding and by "wedding" you didn't actually mean legal wedding.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Apr 25, 2012 11:17:48 GMT -5
I really don't think that's what FB is saying, and it's not what I'm saying - I'm not sure where the terms "real" and "fake" marriage popped up, but I don't think the legal marriage is automatically "real" marriage, or that anything other than that is a "fake" marriage. Not in the least. Because obviously you have people getting married for benefits who care nothing about each other, and people who are legally forbidden to marry who are extremely committed to each other. I'm just talking about people using the legal terms incorrectly. In my state, "gay marriage" ISN'T a legal term, because it's not possible for two same-gendered people to marry. Doesn't mean their relationship is fake - just that the terms "husband" and "wife" are not legal terms in that context. I may bow out of this debate now because I don't want you or anyone else to think I think less of you, or am judging your marriage, or anything like that - I'm not, at all - but if that's how I'm coming across, I should shut my mouth now. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Did I miss the part where she was trying to make a decision for them? Or is she just not allowed to have an opinion on what they're doing? Yes, it is "misunderstanding" when her posts (and probably mine) are recharacterized as gay-bashing, or "Firebird doesn't believe that gay marriage is as real as straight marriage," or any of the other comments that have been made. Obviously many of us disagree on this subject - and that's fine - but if someone is disagreeing with me, I at least want them to disagree with what I'm actually saying and not what they think I'm saying ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jun 18, 2024 8:09:05 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 11:18:55 GMT -5
If the definition of wedding is "a celebration of a marriage" and a marriage hasn't taken place, then the people throwing the "reception" should call it something else.
As for being married before your wedding....well, I am with those who think it's disingenuous to stand up in front of people and exchange vows that have already taken place just to "put on a show" for your loved ones. Have yourself a reception if you desire, but don't go through the charade of the ceremony beforehand if you've already done it.
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2012 11:21:34 GMT -5
If people want to go anyway, then fine. If they don't, then fine. Be fricking honest, for pity's sake. It's just not cool to manipulate and deceive your friends and family.
And this is the point that keeps confusing me. Why wouldn't you just be upfront about it? If you're so sure that the legal marriage part is completely meaningless, why wouldn't you just be honest and state that? Okay, you don't owe anyone an explanation, but on the other hand, what's the big hang-up about keeping it private?
My sense is that more often than not, when the legal marriage doesn't happen at the same time as the commitment wedding or whatever you want to call it and the couple doesn't tell people, it's because they fear disapproval (like in the case of the couple in my OP).
I'm not saying EVERY couple who keeps it quiet does so for that reason, but it does seem like people get awfully defensive about their right to keep the legal marriage part a secret. And they DO have that right, no argument - but if it's going to potentially cause such a huge issue with your loved ones, then why not just be honest and say "hey, we're doing the legal part some other time"? If the legal marriage is such a small "no big deal" kind of thing that no one cares about anyway, then why hide when you're doing it?
Again, I am NOT ARGUING that you have the right to hide it if you want to - I'm just genuinely asking why you would, knowing that it could cause problems, if you weren't trying to avoid disapproval.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Apr 25, 2012 11:24:43 GMT -5
I am really sitting here thinking about all the weddings I have been to & thinking how I would feel if I found out they never legally got married OR if I found out they married long before the actually wedding. Neither bothers me in the slightest.
What would bother me is if I found out that this was their 2nd wedding (for the same marriage). I could also see the attitude of the couple towards the deception might be bothersome. I could be wrong, but I think maybe it is the attitude of the couple that bothers people more than the deception itself.
The fact that some of the couples make it public knowledge just weeks after the wedding is weird - it is like announcing that we tricked you all. I think the OP couple that is letting it slip to people while insisting it is a "secret" is annoying because with a year to go, the family will find out & then feel bad that everyone was in on this but them. I think both these behaviors would tend to make you feel like you were the butt of a joke & piss you off.
I think it either needs to be public knowledge prior to the wedding or be a secret you keep from everyone for a few decades.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,478
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 25, 2012 11:26:55 GMT -5
I think the OP couple that is letting it slip to people while insisting it is a "secret" is annoying because with a year to go, the family will find out & then feel bad that everyone was in on this but them. I think both these behaviors would tend to make you feel like you were the butt of a joke & piss you off I think it either needs to be public knowledge prior to the wedding or be a secret you keep from everyone for a few decades ![](http://forums.clubrsx.com/images/smilies/yeahthat.gif)
|
|
Firebird
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 12:55:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,448
|
Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2012 11:30:20 GMT -5
I just can't imagine for a moment why you wasted countless hours of your life contemplating and analyzing a decision someone else made about their wedding.
Countless hours? What a silly thing to say. I started this thread two days ago and it was the first time I gave it any serious thought in my life. I've wasted exponentially more time on Doxie. We all spend "countless" hours debating silly minutiae almost every day on YM because it's fun. This subject is no different from any other.
But yes, I do feel the need to keep clarifying because people do seem to be getting confused and thinking that I think gay marriage is invalid or that I feel like I "need" to define terms for other people. I don't and I don't.
|
|