Non-Financial Book Club *UPDATE IN OP*

[Angel!]

May 2, 2012 18:11:26 GMT -5 Firebird said:

If I'd been raised in the rich districts, or the Capitol itself, I'd probably have been cheering the Games right along with everyone else.

I've often wondered how I would have behaved if I grow up in a different time/place. Like if I grew up in the south during the civil rights movement - would I have been a racist or would I have become a freedom rider - watched a special on the freedom riders the other day fascinating stuff that I never recall learning in history. If I grew up in germany during the holocaust, would I have felt it was wrong or would I have been turning in my neighbors for being jewish.

[Happy prose]

Answering both qs: Katniss grew up killing animals, so it was normal. The careers- its the environment they grew up in. A young adult may question in their mind what's right and wrong, but mostly want to fit in and be like the crowd.

[wvugurl26]

Ok my responses to the last three questions.

If I was Prim, I think I would be mostly scared. I'd be afraid that Katniss would get killed and what would happen to us without her. On the other hand I don't think I would stop her from taking my place. I'd carry around a horrible guilt if she died of course.

I say this because Katniss has sheltered Prim and she's been leading the family since her father died. She is more of a mother figure to Prim than a sibling. Katniss makes sure they have food and she makes arrangements for her family to be taken care of while she's gone. I just don't think having been in that type of situation and sheltered that I would be able to keep her from taking my spot.

When she is hunting, Katniss is killing animals so her family can eat. She's doing what she must to survive. She's not so immune and hardened to death and suffering like some of the tributes from other Districts. She sees the tributes as someone's family member and she knows what might happen to her family if she were to be killed in the Games.

I do agree I'm not sure she could have killed Rue. I think Rue reminds her too much of Prim and Rue helped her escape when the Careers had her trapped up in a tree. I think she has seen a lot of deaths that didn't have to be and seen the impact it has on the family. She's looking at it from that perspective and she doesn't want to be responsible for causing deaths. I think part of this also comes from how District 12 views the games. Out of the 73 prior games, they've had 1 winner so to District 12 they view it as certain death for the tributes selected that isn't something they celebrate. The richer Districts have a different view of the Games.

I think the Careers and kids who are ok with it are ok because that's what they have been told their whole lives. In those rich Districts it is a honor to train and represent your District in the Games. I also think coming from a District that wins would influence your view on the Games.

Also I think if you come from one of the richer Districts with Careers, your life is very different than those in District 12. You have a lot of things so I think that is going to result in you having a kinder view of the Capitol. You are closer to the outer fringes of the Capitol, you are treated well, have food, medicine, etc. If you are from District 12 you see people struggle and suffer needlessly because of the Capitol. You see the Games as one more way the Capitol exerts its control and forces people to suffer.

I also agree that this same sort of brainwashing occurs in countries where they recruit and train children for armies. I think if you get to them early enough and control outside influences, chances are they will go along with what you say at least for awhile. If you hear the same consistent message from the time you are a child and have no other contrary messages from the outside, it is unlikely you will question the majority especially at that young age.

[Deleted]

I'm cruising Amazon right now... thinking the $80 Kindle would make a nice Mother's Day gift for me (curse you, Firebird!!! )... and I glanced at the Top Seller list. In all the top spots is this book:

Fifty Shades of Grey: Book One of the Fifty Shades Trilogy
E L James (Author)

What do you all know about this? It looks really good to me.

ETA: never mind - I'm over it.

[CarolinaKat]

May 2, 2012 15:38:44 GMT -5 Abby Normal said:

May 2, 2012 15:08:54 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I really liked this one. There's a companion question, which I'll post after we've had a crack at this one.

Compare Katniss’ hunting for survival with her reluctance to kill human beings. Why does she reject the latter when she knows she has no choice if she is to survive? It’s not that different from killing animals so her family doesn’t starve.

But she doesn't reject it. She may hate the idea, but does it when necessary. Even turned her bow on Peeta for an instant when they "changed" the rules again.

She hates the idea, but does what she needs to do to survive.

As for the fist question... Agilemom's got my answer right there. Katniss does what needs doing, no matter how unethical/unplesant. I think she would've taken Peeta out if she didn't have to deal with the fallout after getting back home to District 12.

[movingforward]

"I think she would've taken Peeta out if she didn't have to deal with the fallout after getting back home to District 12."

I disagree. I think she would have only taken Peeta out if he had tried to take her out first.

[CarolinaKat]

May 2, 2012 17:18:03 GMT -5 Firebird said:

And if you think about it, her only killings were kind of... I don't want to say passive, but certainly less than cold-blooded. She kills one girl by siccing the killer bees on her, which was certainly foreseeable but not something I would consider a direct kill. She kills Rue's killer (which seems like it must have been at least self-defense) and finally, she kills the big kid to end his suffering. She doesn't actually seek anyone out for the purpose of ending their life.

Okay, companion question:

For the “careers” and the kids that are eager to join the Games, why aren’t they struggling with this? What might they have gone through in their childhood that would make them so conditioned to the idea of killing people who might be their classmates or siblings? Are there conditions in our world today that you can think of which produce this attitude in children?

I think 'careers' probably think that they can win instead of seeing it as being a death sentance. People can and do come home from their districts. They are well-fed and well trained and think it's a great honor to fight. If you are from a career district and don't want to fight, there's no fear of being forced to participate if you don't want to, someone else will take your spot and you go back to your family. It's also probably less horrific for them because THEIR district's tributes WANT to compete in the games. It being optional/a choice takes away a level of horror IMO.

If you're in District 11 or 12, and you get called, you're screwed (unless you're Prim). No one thinks it's an honor, because no one ever wins. You're being forced to go and you don't want to because you know full well what it means. You're malnourished and not trained, you're one of the weakest targets there are. Think about how screwed Peeta if some other girl was reaped. He would've been no use to the career pack and would've been taken out Day 1.

As far as taking out your classmates/friends, it's presumably a lot easier to kill someone you don't know. Chances are the other tribute from your district will be taken out by another career district's tribute, so you don't worry about it. And I agree with the child soldiers example.

[CarolinaKat]

May 3, 2012 12:58:38 GMT -5 movingforward said:

"I think she would've taken Peeta out if she didn't have to deal with the fallout after getting back home to District 12."

I disagree. I think she would have only taken Peeta out if he had tried to take her out first.

I don't think she would've flinched if he'd been a tribute from a different district. Peeta had being Peeta going for him. I also don't think a tribute from a different district would've given her a choice.

[movingforward]

May 3, 2012 13:17:25 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

May 3, 2012 12:58:38 GMT -5 movingforward said:

"I think she would've taken Peeta out if she didn't have to deal with the fallout after getting back home to District 12."

I disagree. I think she would have only taken Peeta out if he had tried to take her out first.

I don't think she would've flinched if he'd been a tribute from a different district. Peeta had being Peeta going for him. I also don't think a tribute from a different district would've given her a choice.

I often wonder what would have happened if it had been Katniss and foxface at the end. Foxface had the strategy of avoidance and I would think it would be extremely difficult to kill someone who never did anything to you or anyone else. My guess is that it might have ended the same way it did with Peeta. She knew at the end that she was just sticking it to the Capital and letting them know they weren't going to completely control her. Same thing could have happened had it been another tribute. Sure they might would have let both of them die because the audience wanted a romance but I would almost think sticking it to the capital would have been worth it. Then again, Katniss had Prim and her mom to think about. They might die without her...

[CarolinaKat]

May 3, 2012 13:31:51 GMT -5 movingforward said:

May 3, 2012 13:17:25 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

I don't think she would've flinched if he'd been a tribute from a different district. Peeta had being Peeta going for him. I also don't think a tribute from a different district would've given her a choice.

I often wonder what would have happened if it had been Katniss and foxface at the end. Foxface had the strategy of avoidance and I would think it would be extremely difficult to kill someone who never did anything to you or anyone else. My guess is that it might have ended the same way it did with Peeta. She knew at the end that she was just sticking it to the Capital and letting them know they weren't going to completely control her. Same thing could have happened had it been another tribute. Sure they might would have let both of them die because the audience wanted a romance but I would almost think sticking it to the capital would have been worth it. Then again, Katniss had Prim and her mom to think about. They might die without her...

I think Katniss and Foxface would've required a Gamemaker disaster to end. Foxface would've kept running, I doubt she'd get within line of sight of the Katniss's bow, and I don't think Katniss would go 'hunting' for her. Katniss would be fine as long as there was game. So if Katniss could keep herself alive on game, they'd have to wait for Foxface to starve. And the Gamemakers wouldn't like that, too long, too boring. So whoever got lucky and avoided the 'natural' disaster/mutts/other random thing the Gamemakers decided to use long enough to live would win

[Firebird]

Hi guys,

Pretty busy today so not able to really participate but here is a new question if you want one.

How does Katniss’ character change from the start to the end? What do you think her most significant area of growth was? Does she remind you of anyone you know?

[Epiphany]

On katniss' growth in the hunger games:
In our book club we discussed how she changed herself to fit in the capitol's scheme and then tried to go back to her normal self. This isn't growth perse, but we found it interesting.

When she is first in the capitol and I think even on the train, she first climbs into bed in her district clothes, like refusing to take them off, then she climbs into bed naked or something similar (it's been awhile since I've read it), then she is wearing capital clothes as she goes to bed. We felt this described her progression of acceptance as to what was going to happen. She would choose to play the capital's game.

On the train ride back home she goes to the bathroom and changes out of the capital clothes, redoes her braid and seemingly mentally prepares herself to be back home, she is now the old Katniss and the capital / hunger game Katniss is banished. She really feels the game was just a game and will go back to her old life.

SPOILER BOOK 2:
Once she realizes she can't go back to the old life like she tried most of book 2 is also spent in fight/flight / reactionary mode. She sees what winning is and what it isn't and knows there is no end like she thought there could be.

SPOILER BOOK 3:
The weight of everything collapses in on her and she withdraws into herself for the first time allowing all the problems grip her mind/soul. I don't think she fully grows until the last couple pages ...

REAL SPOILER ALERT!
when she realizes gale had too much fire of his own and she needed the stableness of Peeta to tame her own fire. The collimation of this realization is almost an afterthought at this point but she is finally able to see herself for who she really is as well as the people around her. They aren't just people she loves, but she sees their good and bad traits and how she fits with them.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think Katniss really started to grow until she started making concious decisions for herself at the end off book 3. Until then, she was going along with the "game" and protecting those she could. But in 3- she finally realized what Peeta was talking about on the roof in book 1- and starts making her own decisions.

[Happy prose]

I'm not sure she really grew at all. Maybe she learned how to show her emotions? Prior to leaving for the games, she wasn't good at showing her feelings for Gale. Or maybe she just matured enough to realize she had feelings. I can't say she reminds me of anyone I know, although for some reason I get flashes of the girl with the dragon tattoo!

[Deleted]

woo hoo - my copy of Hunger Games is finally available! ;D

[Firebird]

Yay!

I think Katniss grows up a lot, but not necessarily in a good way. It's really interesting to see everyone's thoughts so far.

(This question contains a slight spoiler, so you might want to skip it if you haven't read past Book One.)

Had Katniss and Peeta actually had to be mentors (Book Two), how do you think they would have coached the new tributes?

[Happy prose]

Hooray for MJ!

I think they would have taught them the importance of picking a few allies in the beginning, and how to work as a team.

[Abby Normal]

I don't think they would have been choosen as mentors. I think Haymitch would have kept that role. I see the capital using them like they did Finnick. (trying to be vague for those who haven't read 3).

[Firebird]

I don't think they would have been choosen as mentors. I think Haymitch would have kept that role. I see the capital using them like they did Finnick. (trying to be vague for those who haven't read 3).

***Spoilers for Book Three***

Interesting... really? After they made such a spectacular show out of having them be star-crossed lovers? I'd think it would be hard to keep that schtick going and also have them regularly passed around Capitol beds.

It would be kind of like putting Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt on The Bachelor. Although, now that I think about it... I'm sure they'd have no shortage of contestants if they did that despite the fact that both men are basically married. Kind of makes you wonder what the world is coming to, doesn't it?

[Abby Normal]

I wouldn't compare it to the Bachelor. But think about it this way, the Capital is all about control. If they hadn't chosen to do the quarter quell the way they did- what better way to have complete control over them, specifically Katniss? And as "indulgent" as the patrons are- I could see them having a certain appeal with buying time with the star crossed lovers...


Snow could have taken as another reminder of what happens when you disobey.

[Firebird]

This is true.

[CarolinaKat]

Hey Guys, I've finished Book 3. I haven't forgotten you. I'm ust suffering from really bad migranes right now and putting together complex thoughts hurts. I'll catch up if the new Rx painkillers start working

[Firebird]

Have you tried having kitty knead your head? Works for me

[CarolinaKat]

May 8, 2012 11:04:09 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Have you tried having kitty knead your head? Works for me

Yeah, I've had a migrane or a tension headache every day for 14 days now. I WISH that would fix it... although kitty girl prefers to knead my eyeballs instead of my head...

[CarolinaKat]

May 3, 2012 16:21:44 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Hi guys,

Pretty busy today so not able to really participate but here is a new question if you want one.

How does Katniss’ character change from the start to the end? What do you think her most significant area of growth was? Does she remind you of anyone you know?

*SPOLIERS* Probably I'm not sure (Still not thinking really straight)

I think Katniss grows most as a person in the understanding of people. Let's Face it, she sucks at the touchy-feely stuff. She learns that people do more than just struggle for food or live a privileged life. I guess this is something that comes with being exposed to people that are different from you and how you are raised. She never really 'gets it' I don't think, but realizes that there is something there to get.