Non-Financial Book Club *UPDATE IN OP*

[Abby Normal]

Also, I hate it when people assume it must be simply written to appeal to kids/young adults. I LOVED the Three Musketeers, Ivanhoe, Jane Eyre- type writing before I hit highschool. This books is written simply enough for gradeshoolers to read, but the subject material is NOT APPROPRIATE. I can see DBF's 7yo niece being ok with the level of writing, but the subject matter not so much...

Agreed. My kids are still in elementary and though they are reading at an 8th grade level- I would not let them read this. Part of the reason I read the books, was because they were recommended as "if you liked Harry Potter try...". A friend had read them but wasn't sure if it would be something my kids should read. So when the frenzy started, I figured I should read them and see if it was something I would let them read.

I don't think books have to be simple to appeal to teen. But it has to be something that catches their interest and they start talking about. What I do see happening is teen age (girls especially) are suddenly finding something to read and encouraging their friends. There is a whole group that I see reading/discussing instead of seeing reading as a "geek" thing.
That to me is a good thing. Anything that gets kids to read...

[southernista]

May 2, 2012 12:21:31 GMT -5 Firebird said:

Okay, second discussion question (just let me know when you guys feel we've talked through a question enough and I'll provide another, I think that's the best way to keep things moving):

If you were Prim, how would you have felt when Katniss volunteered to take your place?

I would have had mixed feelings. I wouldn't want her to go I also would be relieved. I've read all three books as well. And it is written for young audiences. My son(9th grader had to read it for English

[Angel!]

May 1, 2012 9:56:07 GMT -5 Epiphany said:

reminds me of socialist nations where you have no rights and you are scared to speak out against the government

The entire beginning of book 1 was depressing as hell & it reminded me of North Korea. Maybe that is why I found it so depressing because there are people today that suffer under this sort of govt & can get executed/get their families put in prison for doing/saying the wrong thing.

The fact that people are starving when there is food available beyond the fence is incredibly sad.

[Angel!]

May 2, 2012 11:51:08 GMT -5 Firebird said:

She points out at several different times throughout the series that she's being selfish, or that another character is giving her way too much credit, or that she isn't a very likable person. Show me ONE instance in the Twilight series where Bella displays that kind of self-awareness.

When Bella doesn't want Edward to be a part of the fight with the other vampires. She is fully aware she is being incredibly selfish & putting everyone at higher risk.

I don't know, maybe it is just me, but I wouldn't put this book on a much higher level than Twilight. It was better written, but I didn't think it was leaps & bounds better. Especially compared to the later books in the Twilight series, they had noticeably better writing than the first book & Bella had much more depth.

The story draws you in a lot more than Twilight & if you don't like romances, I could see hating Twilight. But I wouldn't say she is a way better character/better person than Bella. Just different due to the fact that they would be different from growing up in 2 different worlds.

[movingforward]

I don't think the writing is leaps & bounds better than the Twilight series but to me the characters of The Hunger Games are much better. I hated Bella's character (especially in the 2nd book). I was so thrilled when she finally became a damn vampire because she finally seemed to stop whining all the time. Edward to me was the equivalent of a stalker and the entire series was just way "over the top" with the whole teen romance thing. IMO The Hunger Games at least had a little depth to it and a few talking points for teens to explore. Twilight on the other hand basically came down to a discussion on Edward vs Jacob, with neither one really being a winner if Bella is supposed to be the prize

[CarolinaKat]

Prim seems to have some compassion so:

If I was Prim, I'd feel very guilty. Not only did my sister take my place on the chopping block, but by doing so she took our family's food source. Which would be all my fault, even though I did what Katniss said and didn't take any Tesserae. On the other hand, I probably think my big sister is brave and strong and probably can actually win. She hunts things to eat, how can hunting people be any different. And then I'd feel guilty over again because that means she's out killing someone else's big brother and sister and then they will be in the situation I was thinking of before. I'd then be terrified that someone was a better hunter than my sister. And probably remain terrified until she came home.

[Firebird]

Probably also a sense of guilt because that would only be natural. Later on, just out of pure survival mode, I would think the thought that she and her mom might starve to death if Katniss doesn't make it probably also crossed her mind.

I agree - although Gale did make that promise to help them. But what if something happened to him too? Katniss was the family breadwinner for the most part, so I could see Prim being scared that they would all die anyway.

I don't think I would feel relieved, though. I would be sick with guilt and fear if someone in my family stepped up to take my place, knowing they would probably wind up dying for me. I might even be angry at the person going for me. Pretty sure I would, in fact. I'm more like Katniss in that respect. It's not like I'd WANT to go to the Games, obviously, but if I were legitimately chosen then I would rather go myself then have to sit back, powerless, while I watched someone I love who volunteered to take my place go instead of me.

[Epiphany]

Myself - guilt. And then wanting to do the best I can since she sacrificed for me. Funny thing is when it happens in the book and movie i cry because I know in a heartbeat I'd do that for my sister.

I think Katniss' decision to save Prim sets the wheels in motion for both Prim and her mom to grow up.

SPOILER ALERT
We find in book 2 and 3 that both Prim and her mom come out of their shells and become amazing healers/aid workers. In fact, Katniss can't believe how much Prim has grown up in a year. And by the time they get to district 13, it's Katniss who needs saving, not Prim and her mom. So I think that by Katniss taking Prim's place it forces them to become self sufficient and not rely so much on Katniss and stay in their own little world.

[Epiphany]

May 2, 2012 13:32:46 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

Prim seems to have some compassion so:

If I was Prim, I'd feel very guilty. Not only did my sister take my place on the chopping block, but by doing so she took our family's food source. Which would be all my fault, even though I did what Katniss said and didn't take any Tesserae. On the other hand, I probably think my big sister is brave and strong and probably can actually win. She hunts things to eat, how can hunting people be any different. And then I'd feel guilty over again because that means she's out killing someone else's big brother and sister and then they will be in the situation I was thinking of before. I'd then be terrified that someone was a better hunter than my sister. And probably remain terrified until she came home.

perfect explanation

[CarolinaKat]

I don't think Prim has it in her (in book one) to be angry at Katniss for leaving. She's too.... squishy.... Katniss has bent over backwards to make sure she didn't grow up as fast as Katniss did, and I think this worked to a certain extent, so she wouldn't rationalize that it'd be better off if she died as opposed to Katniss...

[movingforward]

Message deleted by almost40.

[Firebird]

I think Katniss' decision to save Prim sets the wheels in motion for both Prim and her mom to grow up.

Interesting point - as long as she was still saving both of them at every opportunity, they didn't really have a chance to grow up. Although I don't think it should have taken the kids practically starving to death for the mother to wake the fuck up, personally.

I don't think Prim has it in her (in book one) to be angry at Katniss for leaving.

Agreed, but the question asked how I would feel if I were Prim

[movingforward]

The whole situation is messed up but to put a 12 yr old in that type of situation is just utterly appalling.

[CarolinaKat]

May 2, 2012 13:44:17 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I don't think Prim has it in her (in book one) to be angry at Katniss for leaving.

Agreed, but the question asked how I would feel if I were Prim

Are we talking 'you' at 25 or 'you' at Prim's age (12).

Because if it was me now I likely wold've had the presence of mind to tell my sister to shove it before it was official and voluenteer myself because I know that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if she wasn't the victor.

If it was me at 12, my previous post was a pretty good summary of what I would've thought, although I was trying to view it though Prim's experiences

[movingforward]

"The fact that people are starving when there is food available beyond the fence is incredibly sad."

And the fact that simple medication is not accessible

[movingforward]

I don't know that we really get to know Prim well enough in the first book to analyze her too much. We know she doesn't kill animals and is dependent on Katniss but I can't really analyze what she might feel beyond a sense of guilt and fear. I have not read past book one yet though so you might get to know her better in 2 and 3.

[Firebird]

Because if it was me now I likely wold've had the presence of mind to tell my sister to shove it before it was official and voluenteer myself because I know that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if she wasn't the victor.

Ditto. Was mostly answering from a 12yo FB perspective.

I have not read past book one yet though so you might get to know her better in 2 and 3.

(Spoiler warning for later books) You do. Prim is pretty freaking awesome. She becomes one of my favorite characters and it turns out she's got some balls of her own. As someone else mentioned, she also becomes quite a talented healer in her own right.

[Epiphany]

I think it is an interesting question for me because when reading I always pictured myself as Katniss, being strong, taking my sister's spot, providing for the family. that is my personality whereas my sister and even my mom are more passive. I never thought to look at it as if I were Prim - I couldn't handle the guilt.

[Firebird]

New question?

[Firebird]

I really liked this one. There's a companion question, which I'll post after we've had a crack at this one.

Compare Katniss’ hunting for survival with her reluctance to kill human beings. Why does she reject the latter when she knows she has no choice if she is to survive? It’s not that different from killing animals so her family doesn’t starve.

[Abby Normal]

May 2, 2012 15:08:54 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I really liked this one. There's a companion question, which I'll post after we've had a crack at this one.

Compare Katniss’ hunting for survival with her reluctance to kill human beings. Why does she reject the latter when she knows she has no choice if she is to survive? It’s not that different from killing animals so her family doesn’t starve.

But she doesn't reject it. She may hate the idea, but does it when necessary. Even turned her bow on Peeta for an instant when they "changed" the rules again.

She hates the idea, but does what she needs to do to survive.

[Angel!]

Because those people are no different than her, thrown in an unfair situation that is kill or be killed. Most of them did not ask to be there & have nothing personal against Katniss. I would think most people in that situation would have a sense of guilt - killing a person is still taking a life even when done in self defense.

ETA - I was very interested in how the book would play out, simply because you assume she will win because you know there are 2 more books. But, at the same time if you make her a cold-blooded killer it takes away her likability & would probably make the book less enjoyable.

[movingforward]

May 2, 2012 15:53:36 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Because those people are no different than her, thrown in an unfair situation that is kill or be killed. Most of them did not ask to be there & have nothing personal against Katniss. I would think most people in that situation would have a sense of guilt - killing a person is still taking a life even when done in self defense.

ETA - I was very interested in how the book would play out, simply because you assume she will win because you know there are 2 more books. But, at the same time if you make her a cold-blooded killer it takes away her likability & would probably make the book less enjoyable.

Good points and I somehow doubt that Katniss would have been able to "take Rue out." I don't know what happens in the next book but I would think that one might suffer from survivors guilt and always figured that is why Haymitch was an alcoholic.

[Firebird]

And if you think about it, her only killings were kind of... I don't want to say passive, but certainly less than cold-blooded. She kills one girl by siccing the killer bees on her, which was certainly foreseeable but not something I would consider a direct kill. She kills Rue's killer (which seems like it must have been at least self-defense) and finally, she kills the big kid to end his suffering. She doesn't actually seek anyone out for the purpose of ending their life.

Okay, companion question:

For the “careers” and the kids that are eager to join the Games, why aren’t they struggling with this? What might they have gone through in their childhood that would make them so conditioned to the idea of killing people who might be their classmates or siblings? Are there conditions in our world today that you can think of which produce this attitude in children?

[movingforward]

I just figured the "careers" were brain washed into thinking this was their destiny or duty to serve their district. A child can be turned into a killer quite easily when they are taught from a young age this is what they are supposed to do and are desensitized to human life. Look at some of the countries in Africa or the middle east where they take children at young ages and turn them into soldiers. They are taught it is their mission in life and make them do their first kill before they are even teenagers. I find it to be one of the cruelest things imaginable.

[Angel!]

Basically the careers were raised in a different environment. They had more food so they didn't struggle to survive, they came from districts where the winners were really hailed as heros & admired. All katniss ever saw was that every person chosen from her district went & died, not really something where you want to follow in their footsteps. If you are raised in an environment where the person who goes out and kills others in the games come back a hero, then you want to be that person.

If you are exposed to this thinking from a young age, then you wouldn't necessarily have the same moral outrage as others. IMO, morals are mostly learned, not ingrained. Thus it would be perfectly possible for a person to be raised thinking that killing others is acceptable in certain situations, then you would be likely to accept it as well.

[Firebird]

IMO, morals are mostly learned, not ingrained.

Interesting statement. I was about to agree and then I remembered something that has always puzzled me. My mom was raised in an extremely racist home and town, and if she were to learn that particular moral the way it was taught to her, she would have been racist too. Yet she always had a gut sense that it was wrong to treat people differently because of the color of their skin as she witnessed pretty much everyone around her do on a regular basis. And you do hear about people growing up in grotesque situations and realizing it's wrong.

It seems like certain people in certain situations - not all by any means - can sense evil around them even when it's accepted as normal by everyone around them. I wonder where that comes from (seriously wondering, not being sarcastic - you said "mostly" and I do agree with that, but I wonder where certain kids get the moral sense that something they're being taught is not right).

[movingforward]

"Thus it would be perfectly possible for a person to be raised thinking that killing others is acceptable in certain situations, then you would be likely to accept it as well."

Respect for human life is a learned behavior. I have a hard time even killing a bug so I am guessing I would not fair well in the games... when push comes to shove though who really knows what you might do...

Firebird - you do bring up a good point though...

[Firebird]

I think I'm just jealous. I learned (and believed as it was taught) a lot of stuff as a kid that I now believe to be immoral. I don't remember a gut sense that any of it was wrong, I just went along with it. And now I'm ashamed of myself for that - especially since it's clearly possible to reject an immoral belief even as it's being taught to you.

If I'd been raised in the rich districts, or the Capitol itself, I'd probably have been cheering the Games right along with everyone else.

[Angel!]

May 2, 2012 17:41:24 GMT -5 Firebird said:

It seems like certain people in certain situations - not all by any means - can sense evil around them even when it's accepted as normal by everyone around them. I wonder where that comes from (seriously wondering, not being sarcastic - you said "mostly" and I do agree with that, but I wonder where certain kids get the moral sense that something they're being taught is not right).

I don't know. I am guessing at least part of it is that some people put more thought into their morals/beliefs/actions than others. Not to in any way put down anyone religious but I think the comparison holds a litte - I have met religious people that the extent of the thought they have put into their religion & their beliefs is "the bible/church says so". Whereas, I have met other religious people that can go in depth into why they believe what they believe & why they consider X to be a sin & what they might think their church does right/wrong, etc. I think some people are more philosophical & deeper than others & they are the ones that might really think things through & possibly disregard what their parents/society taught them.

I also did say mostly learned simply because it does seem that a few basic morals like not killing your neighbor is pretty universal across cultures. I have read theories that certain morals like not killing are are likely ingrained due to evolution simply because the early survivors of our species were able to survive because they didn't fight & kill each other.

But following the same idea, evolution didn't teach us to not kill someone that is different, that wouldn't have helped our species survive - people that are different are a potential threat & to be feared. Fearing the next tribe over might keep you from getting killed by the next tribe over. Which is why racism & wars are also a pretty universal concept. And if all the above is in any way true, then it could follow that someone like your mom would realize racism is wrong because she realizes that people from different races aren't inheritly bad or scary. They aren't one of "them" to be feared/hated, they are still one of "us" & should be treated as such. Your mom took the morals she was taught & put different definitions into who qualifies as "us" & deserves respect.