buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Apr 18, 2012 4:38:24 GMT -5
I know, Thyme! Since my niece and nephew attend a Christian school about 20 minutes from the one under discussion, I do know a bit about this story..... ETA: Since we go to Rockwall every time I go to visit my family and it's not much of a drive, I think it's about 20 minutes away....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 6:09:29 GMT -5
14 years ago I was the first teacher in my district to go through pregnancy unwed. Several before me had given in to harassment type pressure to get married. My union rep was very involved, but ultimately I did not have a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 6:15:09 GMT -5
there any divorced people at the school? Wonder how they explain that to the little kiddies who can't seemingly understand a pregnant woman but can understand that?Well a divorce isn't obvious unless the teacher is sitting talking about it 24/7. And if that is the case I would not be surprised if their morality clause kicked in. But that isn't ratings raising type of news. They may also have not felt the need to go to the media, they may accept they broke the rules and employment was terminated. A pregnancy like it or not can't be hidden after a certain amount of time and is a nautral curiousity for kids, they will ask questions. The school felt that was going to lead to questions that could lead to answers against their teachings. While I think morality clauses are BS I can understand why the school choose to enforce it. Busytoys is right, she knew the rules you can't cry foul when they catch up to you. If you want to be a cafeteria Christian then you don't choose to work for a school that has a morality clause based on their doctrine. Oh, i see. So, if you are a going to be a really good Christian, the best course of action is to learn to adequately hide your sins, then you get a pass? Is that the message? I hope not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 6:17:38 GMT -5
A far BETTER Christian message in my opinion is for the teacher to admit she made a mistake, ask God (yes, God for forgiveness not the school board), and then have the baby and set about being the best possible mother and role model she can be. Isn't Christianity also about forgiveness and redemption? I guess i subscribe to a different brand of Christianity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 7:05:20 GMT -5
Yeah... Abortion probably would have been a better option in her case I guess... ?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 18, 2012 9:39:15 GMT -5
Where's the personal integrity? Being pregnant is not the sin, its just the visible consequence of the sin. If the teacher was having an intimate relationship outside of marriage and she knew it was against her contract at work, she should have stepped down from her job. She knew going into this what was required of her. She chose to act in conflict with those rules, and now has to face the consequences.
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 18, 2012 10:02:41 GMT -5
You can't imagine anyone more powerful than a teacher of small children? ...raped women ...murdered men ...sleep with any woman You really think teachers are so powerful? I'd hate to see you deal with a corrupt cop or soldier. Actually, yes. I still do believe in the power of a teacher. Very specific to a teacher's role in this discussion to teach morals. Underlying each of your horrific examples is the moral grounding of the perpetrator that their actions were acceptable. For each of these examples of the pond scum of the world, imagine instead, them as a child, la tabla rasa, as a blank slate. Now imagine them growing up under the loving care of a kind moral teacher guiding them through their youth building their moral character such that as an adult they would never perform such acts. I don't suppose you've raped or pillaged yet today. It's almost funny to state that directly. But, strange as it seems to discuss, a key reason for the lack of bloodshed in your life is that you were taught not to do that. Yes, teachers are very powerful.
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mizbear
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Post by mizbear on Apr 18, 2012 10:05:54 GMT -5
Would they have asked her to step down if the child was conceived due to a sexual assault? What about a student who had been assaulted?
Before you answer- I'd like you to consider the following- I have been out of school 18 years. 20 years ago, I finally got the nerve to press charges against my father for sexual abuse. The high school I was attending had a tenured administrator who was able to push me out- even though there was supposed to be inter-county cooperation since my program was not available where I was going in the next county. When I got back to my old school district, teachers, students and staff were permitted to openly harrass me for being sexually abused.
If the woman is a good teacher- let her teach. So maybe her being pregnant out of wedlock is not the best example- but would you rather have some judgmental person who teaches hate in the classroom? BTW- we only had 1 parochial/private high school in our area at the time and they refused to take me because "I was a bad influence".
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 18, 2012 10:16:49 GMT -5
If the woman is a good teacher- let her teach. So maybe her being pregnant out of wedlock is not the best example- but would you rather have some judgmental person who teaches hate in the classroom
Personally, no.
But I am thinking that parents who send their kids to this school do. Busytoys and several others have pointed out that their religious beliefs are part and parcel of the education there, they do not separate between private life and public life. The teachers are expected to conduct themselves according to their doctrine.
If I am sending my kid to a school like this then yes I would want the teachers to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. If you can't be bothered to adhere to the values yourself why would I expect you to be able to effectively teach my kids those values?
People really need to understand the rules that go into teaching at a place like this which I think Busytoys has explained excellently.
Anywhere else I would agree she should sue their pants off and personally yes I do think it is wrong BUT she KNEW the rules, she KNEW that she was flouting her church's doctrine.
You don't want to follow it then leave the school and leave the church. Don't cry foul when your church follows their beliefs and acts accordingly.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2012 10:42:07 GMT -5
That's the problems with living a life with principles - you have to give something up to stay true. So, if this particular teaching job was more important than her feelings on abortion, then yes, an abortion would have saved her job. If, however, her feelings on abortion are paramount, then she can find another job that doesn't enforce the same values. She has choices.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2012 10:45:22 GMT -5
One of these statements is far closer to the Christianity I have experienced and the other one is closer to the Christianity we wish would exist.
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 18, 2012 11:15:59 GMT -5
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
The article focuses on the 'hate the sin' part, afaik the 'love the sinner' part simply is not documented, no one said it did not exist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2012 12:34:56 GMT -5
What churches, other than Catholic, allow annulments?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 18, 2012 12:36:56 GMT -5
I wonder what loving thing the school did for this lady as they fired her pregnant ass.
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mizbear
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Post by mizbear on Apr 18, 2012 19:15:52 GMT -5
thyme- Hopefully pushed her into a much better paying position with kick@$$ benefits! I hope very strongly that one of these days these "Christian" organizations will realize what damage some of these policies and clauses do. Luckily, despite my experience with the church, I do know that not all Christians are so narrow minded.
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Clever Username
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Post by Clever Username on Apr 19, 2012 13:36:09 GMT -5
The most powerful people in the past knew very well what the rules were and also that they were above them. Now it sounds like you are the one advocating for religious schooling with rules more strict than the prevailing government. JudeoChrisitian and most religions teach that no one is above their laws.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 19, 2012 16:25:06 GMT -5
They can do whatever they want. I don't care. But, the message of Christianity is forgiveness. The message of Christianity is "come as you are". The idea that they only employ perfect and sinless people is a false religion. They didn't kick her out of the church, they took her out of a leadership position. There is a big difference between the two. You can forgive someone for sinning but still not want someone who has shown piss poor judgment in a leadership position. Would you want a doctor or babysitter who is a drunk? If not, is it because that person's judgment is sometimes impaired and he has the ability to cause grave harm, or because you think all alcoholics are evil people? And although you might fire your doctor or babysitter for being a drunk, would you necessairly want the guy who bags your groceries to get fired if he had a drinking problem? See the difference?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 19, 2012 16:35:52 GMT -5
No. It is just there are many lapses in morality. But, as a society, we hone in on certain things as oh so terrible and ignore others. My point on gluttony. But, beware, that one is coming to the forefront soon. And, smokers, many places no longer hiring smokers. Obviously we should hire anyone who is divorced either as that also must speak to a lack of character, right? Are there any divorced people at the school? Wonder how they explain that to the little kiddies who can't seemingly understand a pregnant woman but can understand that? Sure. Considering the fact that at least one protestant church started so that a guy could get a divorce, I can't see divorce being a big deal.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 19, 2012 16:47:34 GMT -5
A far BETTER Christian message in my opinion is for the teacher to admit she made a mistake, ask God (yes, God for forgiveness not the school board), and then have the baby and set about being the best possible mother and role model she can be. Isn't Christianity also about forgiveness and redemption? I guess i subscribe to a different brand of Christianity. You're assuming that this woman really did see what she did as wrong and fully intended to stop sleeping around. How many women who got pregnant under bad circumstances do you know that stopped having sex out of wedlock when they got pregnant?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 19, 2012 17:00:33 GMT -5
There's also a 'special kind of stupid' angle to this whole thing. Most Christian schools don't pay well. And considering the vast array of BC methods available today, getting knocked up while unmarried when you're working a job that pays only a little more than minimum wage job shows an alarming lack of common sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 6:45:46 GMT -5
No. It is just there are many lapses in morality. But, as a society, we hone in on certain things as oh so terrible and ignore others. My point on gluttony. But, beware, that one is coming to the forefront soon. And, smokers, many places no longer hiring smokers. Obviously we should hire anyone who is divorced either as that also must speak to a lack of character, right? Are there any divorced people at the school? Wonder how they explain that to the little kiddies who can't seemingly understand a pregnant woman but can understand that? Sure. Well, if that is the new standard, then i guess would could consder the fact also that there is at least one young woman in the Bible who became pregnant out of wedlock and had the baby. And, she didn't lose her job! Considering the fact that at least one protestant church started so that a guy could get a divorce, I can't see divorce being a big deal.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 20, 2012 13:59:01 GMT -5
No. It is just there are many lapses in morality. But, as a society, we hone in on certain things as oh so terrible and ignore others. My point on gluttony. But, beware, that one is coming to the forefront soon. And, smokers, many places no longer hiring smokers. Obviously we should hire anyone who is divorced either as that also must speak to a lack of character, right? Are there any divorced people at the school? Wonder how they explain that to the little kiddies who can't seemingly understand a pregnant woman but can understand that? Sure. Well, if that is the new standard, then i guess would could consder the fact also that there is at least one young woman in the Bible who became pregnant out of wedlock and had the baby. And, she didn't lose her job! She didn't get in that condition by having unprotected sex with a guy she wasn't married to. You seem to be determined to think that it is hypocritical for an institution to not put someone who is obviously flouting that institution's ideals in a leadership position within that institition. That is your right, but your conclusions are wrong and illogical and every bit as hypocritical as you claim this school is.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 20, 2012 14:07:52 GMT -5
That's hardly relevant to the curent discussion, TT. I don't think Shooby would have any problem with a public school teacher who dropped out at 16 and got the job with a forged transcript getting fired. After all, a teacher is supposed to be encouraging kids to get an education, and if she didn't do so herself, it would make it hard to tell the kids to do as she says, not as she did. And I seriously doubt that Shooby would let an alcoholic babysit her kid due in large part to the bad example such a person would set. But apparently, if a Christian school doesn't want to do the same thing to it's students, they are being hypocritical.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Apr 21, 2012 7:17:03 GMT -5
If the woman is a good teacher- let her teach. So maybe her being pregnant out of wedlock is not the best example- but would you rather have some judgmental person who teaches hate in the classroomPersonally, no. But I am thinking that parents who send their kids to this school do. Busytoys and several others have pointed out that their religious beliefs are part and parcel of the education there, they do not separate between private life and public life. The teachers are expected to conduct themselves according to their doctrine. If I am sending my kid to a school like this then yes I would want the teachers to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. If you can't be bothered to adhere to the values yourself why would I expect you to be able to effectively teach my kids those values? People really need to understand the rules that go into teaching at a place like this which I think Busytoys has explained excellently. Just to make it clear, and I know it doesn't really matter..... I honestly don't believe that most of the teachers in this particular school or others in the area are "haters" in any way. They have a doctrine they are supposed to follow, but it is known that we are all sinners. Sinning doesn't mean you aren't forgiven. It does mean that you are NOT the example or minister parents choose for their children. (Just pointing out the thought process here.... Your beliefs may differ and I'm not trying to push a particular doctrine on anyone.) What is upsetting people is that this teacher is claiming she did nothing wrong. She knew what the expectations were, yet she feels she should not be held responsible for her actions. I will point out again that there are PLENTY of teaching jobs in the area. There was no reason for her to break her contract other than personal choice. Ultimately, this whole story is about making choices rather than whether or not a particular institution's rules are right or wrong. If enough people feel they are right and financially support the school, then that is their choice. Otherwise, the school would not be viable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 9:08:34 GMT -5
That's hardly relevant to the curent discussion, TT. I don't think Shooby would have any problem with a public school teacher who dropped out at 16 and got the job with a forged transcript getting fired. After all, a teacher is supposed to be encouraging kids to get an education, and if she didn't do so herself, it would make it hard to tell the kids to do as she says, not as she did. And I seriously doubt that Shooby would let an alcoholic babysit her kid due in large part to the bad example such a person would set. But apparently, if a Christian school doesn't want to do the same thing to it's students, they are being hypocritical. My problem with this is that it is very easy to single out women for sexual sins. And, that sin is sin. And, for some reason we bead in on certain sins and ignore others. Sorry, but i have been in the workforce long enough to see a big nothing turn into a big deal and vice versa. And, yes, every place needs standards but i they are applied so randomly that they lose their meaning. So, should she be fired? I dont' know. They can hire or fire whomever they want. But, in some ways this sends exactly the opposite message of what they intend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 9:28:36 GMT -5
Yes. There are double standards. So, i guess it is better for the unwed single mom to now be an unemployed, unwed single mom? I understand that lines have to be drawn but i don't agree with they choose to draw it. If they want to apply these standards, then now is a good time to go across the board and put everyone else under a microscope as well. I suspect they will have to do a mass firing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 9:40:04 GMT -5
I didn't say they didn't. I merely am pointing out that the firing does not necessarily send the message they intended to send.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Apr 21, 2012 11:14:55 GMT -5
Yes. There are double standards. So, i guess it is better for the unwed single mom to now be an unemployed, unwed single mom? I understand that lines have to be drawn but i don't agree with they choose to draw it. If they want to apply these standards, then now is a good time to go across the board and put everyone else under a microscope as well. I suspect they will have to do a mass firing. I don't see how it's a double standard to agree to a contract and then be fired for violating it..... And I guess you missed my earlier comment about other teacher/ministers in that particular school losing their employment due to morals violations.... If my job has a policy that there's no drinking allowed during work hours, and I'm seen having a beer with lunch, shouldn't I expect to be fired? Why do you keep trying to make this an argument about her being a single mother rather than about a person not adhering to the terms of her employment agreement? Where should the line be drawn? I agree to terms for employment, but I'm able to change them at will if I feel they are unfair?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 12:30:42 GMT -5
Well, i am begging the question. Seems like employers want to know everything about you from your medical history, personal life and on and on and on but there are no protections in the reverse. I think an honest day's work for an honest day's pay is what working is generally about. I think in the era of internet, texting , facebook and so forth, that lines of privacy are being crossed but only in one direction. Yes, you don't have to take any job. Is there a line where the employer can't cross as well? Should they have given her an exam to see if she was a virgin? I think there are very real issues of potential abuse . And, they are allowed to do these things if we allow it. Laws only change when someone kicks up a fuss.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Apr 21, 2012 13:05:51 GMT -5
I imagine the school would have fired her for having an abortion as well if they knew about it. And if she confeses that a male teacher got her pregnant most likely he will be fired as well, but as others have pointed out being unwed and pregnant is pretty flagrant 'example' to the children and if it was my kids at that school you bet your ass I would throw a fit! (the fact that I don't have kids is irrelevant to this argument )
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