Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 12, 2012 10:06:23 GMT -5
Like it or not, the woman signed up to work for the Taliban. There is something called, "Separation of Church and State" and that is an issue here too. It's not an issue when you are Christian school who doesn't rely on public funding. She's not going to get anywhere with her law suit. And with all due respect, believing that pre-marital sex is not something you should be doing is not Talibanistic. Lots of people believe that way. And a few of them even practice what they preach!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2012 10:08:36 GMT -5
I didn't have much of an issue while working there but I was also a peon so I'd have to have done something pretty spectacular to violate the morality clause.
But it was in there, it was there when I signed the papers. It was part of my performance review. There was no way for me not to know I was working under one and part of my continued employment meant I needed to abide by it.
I feel sorry for her and think it sucks but I am hard pressed to believe that this was as big of a shock as she claimed it is.
You had to have known that you were taking a big ass risk when you worked for this school.
I do not think it is "right" but those are the rules you need to play by when you work for these types of places. You want to flaunt them be prepared to lose your job. Somehow somewhere your marital status was leaked and then you got pregnant.
Now I don't believe it sends a bad message personally because it is none of my damn business if you are married. If Iowa recognized common law marriage I don't think I would have gone thru all the hassle of getting the piece of paper.
It IS a big deal to the school though and I am hard pressed to believe she didn't see this coming. Why she would think the school would make an exception is beyond me.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2012 10:19:19 GMT -5
You choose to work there though. No one held a gun to this woman's head and made her work for these people.
There are plenty of non-private institutions she could have taught at where this would have been a total non-issue. There are private ones even with morality clauses that would not have cared.
You want to work there you have to play by their rules. Which is why I said I am not buying that she was surprised. She had to have seen this coming. If she's a minister she knows their views on pre-marital sex and pregnancy out of wedlock. Just because YOU choose not to follow that particular doctrine doesn't mean the entire school is going to go along with you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:34:08 GMT -5
Being obese doesn't display a lack of morals - it just displays a lack of self-control (in some cases). Being pregnant out of wedlock displays a lack of morals (to the people in charge). She signed the contract. She violated it. I'm probably going to catch all kinds of flak for this and that ok. Teachers, like it or not, are role models. Some of mine certainly were. I would not want to have my daughter think that being pregnant out of wedlock is an ok thing to do. Because I don't think it is. Not everybody agrees with that and that's ok, too. I have a right to my opinion and the school administrators of a Christian school have the right to their rules, as has been decided by just about every court its been tried before. In the Bible, Sin is Sin. Gluttony is a Sin just life fornication. So, in terms of "sin" then you are speaking in terms of morality. And, since they want to apply the Christian standard of morality i am making a point. Just because we downplay other sins and make a bigger deal out of sexual sins does not mean that these are viewed as more heinous by God. And, what about the concepts of loyalty? How about standing by your employees? Or, do we just pick and choose cafeteria style?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:35:53 GMT -5
Actually, some employers are now applying obesity and BMI standards as well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:39:18 GMT -5
They can do whatever they want. I don't care. But, the message of Christianity is forgiveness. The message of Christianity is "come as you are". The idea that they only employ perfect and sinless people is a false religion.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 12, 2012 11:42:56 GMT -5
I absolutely hear what you are saying but she signed a "morality" contract. Not a "sin" contract. We all sin. If they fired everybody that sinned, they would have to fire themselves.
As far as employers owing their employees loyalty? I don't know so much about that. They owe their employees an honest salary for an honest days work. Other than that? I dont' know that my employer owes me anything.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 12, 2012 11:44:13 GMT -5
They can do whatever they want. I don't care. But, the message of Christianity is forgiveness. The message of Christianity is "come as you are". The idea that they only employ perfect and sinless people is a false religion. We are in absolute agreement here. But I don't think anybody is saying she isn't forgiven - just that she's fired.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2012 11:44:27 GMT -5
And, what about the concepts of loyalty? How about standing by your employees? Or, do we just pick and choose cafeteria style?
Why should they? She violated their morality clause which she AGREED to when she took a job there.
If I steal from my boss I don't expect him to stand by me. I violated policy and need to face the consequences.
Since this was a private religious school they have their own rules and she chose to ignore them. Unfortunately for her the results of her actions are extremely obvious to outsiders.
They have a right to fire her if she violated the clause she agreed to. It states where yo using that you understand and AGREE to abide by what you are signing.
Don't work there if you disregard their teachings.
I have nothing against pre-marital sex, but if I worked for this school you could be damn sure I'd be meticulous with my BC and keep my mouth shut about my marital status.
Mistakes happen, but she knows darn well what her school/church's stance is on her behavior. It says in the article she is also a minister. Unless she was sick that day she knows what their stance is on her behavior.
She can't cry foul once she got caught. She chose to pick "cafeteria style" what parts of the school's doctrine to follow and it backfired in her face.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:45:10 GMT -5
Well, if your employer owes you nothing then likewise, you should owe them nothing except an honest day's work and no more. Personally, i find the invasion of personal life by employers to be very disturbing and i think legal boundaries need to be drawn.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 12, 2012 11:48:57 GMT -5
Well, if your employer owes you nothing then likewise, you should owe them nothing except an honest day's work and no more. Personally, i find the invasion of personal life by employers to be very disturbing and i think legal boundaries need to be drawn. I don't disagree with that either, but the thing is? I didn't sign a contract with a morality clause in it. If I had done that, then I'd would owe them behavior that is in line with the contract I signed. I'm not saying you are wrong, shooby - just that she knew what she was doing when she signed the contract and if she knew she couldn't fulfill that contract, she should have sought employment elsewhere. What do you suppose she would have done if they had violated the contract by...say....not paying her? Raised Holy Hell is what.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:50:13 GMT -5
No. I understand what you are saying. But, my point isn't that they applied it to her. My point is that i bet you dollars for donuts there are others who have done things equally wrong in their eyes that they did nothing about.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 12, 2012 11:53:46 GMT -5
No. I understand what you are saying. But, my point isn't that they applied it to her. My point is that i bet you dollars for donuts there are others who have done things equally wrong in their eyes that they did nothing about. I'm certain you are right about that. The problem for them is when the "immoral" behavior will be as noticeable as a pregnancy. I agree that's hypocrital as hell.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 11:58:27 GMT -5
I don't know. I just find employers seem to feel they have a right to delve into every aspect of your life and i don't agree. I don't owe my employer anything except coming to work and doing my job well . I don't think what i do, where i go to church, what my political opinions are, what i say on Facebook or what my cholesterol is, is any of their dang business. And, if more people stood up to these kinds of privacy invasions, then things would change.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2012 12:11:45 GMT -5
My point is that i bet you dollars for donuts there are others who have done things equally wrong in their eyes that they did nothing about
I'll agree with you there. It is hypocritical, it's unfortunate that her "immoral" behavior is something they can't shove underneath the rug.
Private institutions have different rules than public ones. I do not have a morality clause here where I currently work but I did when I worked for a Catholic Jesuit university.
I choose where I work. If I don't like having to abide by Catholic doctrine while on campus and having how I uphold myself both on and off campus being part of my review then I don't work there.
It's partly why I don't. I like working for a public university a lot better than a private one.
But if I was still working where I did I don't really have the right to bitch about being expected to abide by their rules. I knew going into it who I was working for.
If she was working in the public sector yeah I'd agree with you that she has a really big lawsuit here and could probably win.
Instead she chose to work for a private very religious school and it came back to bite her in the ass.
It's unfortunate and I'll agree totally hypocritical but that's why if you are going to ignore the rules be prepared in case it backfires on you.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Apr 12, 2012 12:16:13 GMT -5
Private corporations can set their own company policies and guidelines for employees. If there's a written employment agreement, then read it thoroughly before signing. If you don't agree with their policies, don't sign it and seek employment elsewhere. Once you've agreed to their terms of employment, you should expect to follow those terms. If you break that contract, they have every right to terminate you.
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mizbear
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Post by mizbear on Apr 12, 2012 12:18:05 GMT -5
Personally, when I think morality clause, I think theft, DUI, abuse, etc. Pregnancy and sex should be left out unless t is a criminal offense- such as sex abuse or rape. These people are a Christian school- they are not Christ.
And gluttony comes in many many forms- not just BMI- this world is falling apart because we have become a world of gluttons- we want more money, bigger homes, faster cars, more more more- but we are not prepared to pay the piper.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 12:20:49 GMT -5
I agree with this - but I think if you go to work as a teacher at a Christian school, you should know that you are going to be expected to live a publically christian lifestyle. (Depending on where the school falls on the christian scale of behavior.) I've seen schools that start every class with prayer, weave Christian Values into lessons plans, etc. It is pretty hard to preach abstinence while standing there with a bastard in your stomach. Doesn't bother me - by my sister would be pissed!!!
When you intertwine your faith and your workplace, you have to live the values you have promised to live. If you want to live outside those values, then take a job as a public school teacher, or in a school that doesn't base their identity on the teachings of the bible.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 12:22:36 GMT -5
The definition of gluttony is excessive eating.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2012 12:31:50 GMT -5
When you intertwine your faith and your workplace, you have to live the values you have promised to live. If you want to live outside those values, then take a job as a public school teacher, or in a school that doesn't base their identity on the teachings of the bible.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Apr 12, 2012 12:38:14 GMT -5
What puts an employer in a bad light? This thinking starts a very slippery slope when you start talking about personal, off-the-clock decisions and lifestyles.
If you do something on company time while you're representing the company that is illegal or violates an employment code of conduct, that's one thing. But my personal life should be just that. How far is too far when it comes to employers meddling in their employees' lives outside of work?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 12:40:41 GMT -5
Christians don't believe there are work values and personal values. They believe you should always conduct yourself according to the word. If you don't want to do that, don't work for a Christian organization.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Apr 12, 2012 12:47:29 GMT -5
Yes, but lone's statement didn't say any employee of a Christian organization. It was a blanket statement. What about people who don't work for Christian organizations and didn't sign any kind of morality clause?
I just saw a story this morning that a guy got hired to work for a newspaper. He was really excited. As sort of a joke/celebration he created a fake press release about his hiring, which he posted on his personal blog. The paper found out and fired him. I guess their reasoning was that journalists are supposed to report the truth, and he "fabricated" something. But it was pretty clear it was meant to be funny and not issued to the general public.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 12:57:32 GMT -5
There seems to be no line or boundaries. Our private thoughts used to be our private thoughts. Now, they want to read private Facebook messages. Um... no. And, the lines between professional and personal have been blurred. I think we need to all get a bit more private in this era of TMI. And, even stuff like my medical history or why i need a day off work shouldn't be any of the company's business. If you are taking a day off to get hemorrhoids removed, why should you have to disclose that? You shouldn't have to give any reason other than just tell them it is medical leave and if they want a doctor signature to verify, fine, but that should be all. And, if you take a personal day, you shouldn't have to give a reason other than taking that which you are entitled to take when you signed the agreement. Seems like employers can move the boundaries whenever they want. I know people who are employed who haven't been able to take a vacation. Yeah, they took the job with the agreement of x amount of vacation. They should be able to take that whenever they want with some notice. The road has to run both ways. If they want loyal employees, then they have to be loyal employers. Sorry, you can't take on one end and not give on the other.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 12:58:22 GMT -5
I guess I don't speak well in the abstract. If this woman were a teacher at the public school, I would think it would be wrong to fire her. But, because she is at a Christian school, they can enforce a moral code.
About the guy at the newspaper - I don't know the ethics around journalism - but his joke was pretty public. I could see how a newspaper would be wary of trusting someone who is going to blog about the company. Blogs are no joke. He didn't get fired because he made a joke - he got fired because he posted a joke about his company on the internet for every person in the world to see.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 12:59:16 GMT -5
You can still have private thoughts. It is when you post them on the WORLD WIDE WEB that companies get a little oogy about it.
HIPPA laws prevent a company from getting your detailed medical history.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 12:59:44 GMT -5
I didn't necessarily say they were wrong to fire her. But, if they want to have rules, then apply them to all.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 13:00:48 GMT -5
I missed the part where other women were having out-of-wedlock babies and keeping their job.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 13:01:50 GMT -5
That isn't my point. I am saying that i am sure there are people who have committed other sins or breeches of the morality clause that they ignored.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2012 13:06:42 GMT -5
The problem isn't if they did it - the problem is doing it in such a way that it will have to be explained to the children. Sure, one of them is probably having dominatrix sex parties - but as long as the kids don't find out (and really, the parents) then they don't have to bridge the gap between real life and Christian values. If, however, that same person wore her dominatrix costume to school and showed some pictures around, they too would be searching for another job.
The point is, this woman is hired not just to teach long division, but also to impart Christian values. I, personally, think that hypocrisy is a Christian value, so she would be an ideal teacher - but the school does not wish her to teach that particular value, nor the value that sex outside the marriage is acceptable.
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