rockon
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Post by rockon on Jan 27, 2011 12:05:57 GMT -5
I'm not against education in the classroom but the RESPONSIBILITY rests with the parents. We keeping forcing or asking our schools to be the responsible party for things that are the responsibility of the parent, we let our government take over many of the responsibilities that should be what individuals or service groups or church's used to do. Some how we have to get back to recognizing that with free choice comes personal responsibility.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Jan 27, 2011 12:55:30 GMT -5
You mean it is not libs fault my kid did bad in school?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2011 13:50:13 GMT -5
You mean it is not libs fault my kid did bad in school? Nor if they did poorly.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jan 27, 2011 15:15:03 GMT -5
Of course sex is moral training, at least in part. Too many people tie morals to religion for some reason. One can have morals without being religious.
My mother did tell me that I should wait to have sex until it was with someone special and that I loved. She told me her story of peer pressure and having sex because "everyone else was having it", and how she regretted it since because it was a person she didn't love. My mother's teachings had nothing to do with religion, they were rooted in the general morality of how you should treat human beings.
My wife, unfortunately, has a similar story to my mother of losing hers to someone irrelevant.
My mother also taught me the importance of treating women with respect and that they were not an object. The school can teach me where to put it and how to cover it but parents are ultimately responsible for how you treat the partners you eventually lay with.
More importantly, without the proper upbringing and focus from the parents and the impact that it has on your self esteem [i.e. I own my body] then you will likely end up in compromising positions regardless of what you learn in school.
It's not ignorance that leads a young woman to not demand a man wear a condom or a man to not demand wearing one himself. Lack of self esteem or respect for the young woman is though.
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Post by ed1066 on Jan 27, 2011 15:29:52 GMT -5
Well said, formerexpat, you get an Exalt...
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 15:46:15 GMT -5
Of course sex is moral training, at least in part. Too many people tie morals to religion for some reason. One can have morals without being religious. My mother did tell me that I should wait to have sex until it was with someone special and that I loved. She told me her story of peer pressure and having sex because "everyone else was having it", and how she regretted it since because it was a person she didn't love. My mother's teachings had nothing to do with religion, they were rooted in the general morality of how you should treat human beings. My wife, unfortunately, has a similar story to my mother of losing hers to someone irrelevant. My mother also taught me the importance of treating women with respect and that they were not an object. The school can teach me where to put it and how to cover it but parents are ultimately responsible for how you treat the partners you eventually lay with. More importantly, without the proper upbringing and focus from the parents and the impact that it has on your self esteem [i.e. I own my body] then you will likely end up in compromising positions regardless of what you learn in school. It's not ignorance that leads a young woman to not demand a man wear a condom or a man to not demand wearing one himself. Lack of self esteem or respect for the young woman is though. Kudos to your mom and I agree. Sadly, there are parents who fail on all counts. [/size] [/quote] Kudos to your mom and I agree. Sadly, there are parents who fail on all counts.
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 15:51:40 GMT -5
Expat- Your mother sounds like a terrific person.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jan 27, 2011 16:17:57 GMT -5
Thanks, she's both my hero and one of my best friends. I joke with her now how tough she was on me growing up, but I wouldn't change how she raised me at all. She feels bad for being so tough but did so to prove to everyone that she could do it since she was so young when she had me. We've got a great relationship and I owe a lot of my success to her. She sure made sure my head was on straight.
As I've said many times before, the only responsibility of a parent is to prepare their child for the real world. I agree with you that too many parents fail miserably.
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 17:17:55 GMT -5
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41280864/ns/health-mental_health/LOS ANGELES — Having an abortion does not increase the risk of mental health problems, but having a baby does, one of the largest studies to compare the aftermath of both decisions suggests. The research by Danish scientists further debunks the notion that terminating a pregnancy can trigger mental illness and shows postpartum depression to be much more of a factor. Abortion in Denmark has been legal since 1973 — the same year the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Roe v. Wade, which established a right to abortion. The Danish study included 365,550 teenagers and women who had an abortion or first-time delivery between 1995 and 2007. None had a history of psychiatric problems that required hospitalization. Through various national registries, researchers were able to track mental health counseling at a hospital or outpatient facility before and after an abortion or delivery.
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 17:20:46 GMT -5
Expat- That's wonderful! She's a courageous woman.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 27, 2011 17:23:28 GMT -5
You think having a baby can cause mental health risks, just wait until they are teenagers.
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Post by Thinking-long-term on Jan 27, 2011 20:23:01 GMT -5
I haven't changed my position one iota you've added your own perception to what I have posted to support your circular BS argument. quite frankly, I don't know what to tell you. you are so free to accuse me of having comprehension problems, yet you can't seem to grasp the position I've clearly outlined in every post I've made on this topic. nobody else has had trouble understanding that I am pro-choice, in every instance where there is a legal choice, because it is not the government's place to tell any woman what she can or cannot do with her own body. ever. combine that with the fact that you are even still editing what you quote, I have zero use for you and your opinions. You posted no position at all you started with the question of what was the difference between a Rape Victim having an abortion and a irresponsible consenting couple having an abortion. If you don't see a difference then so be it and as far as the crack babies deserving a chance at life if you have ever seen somebody or something struggling to live then maybe you will change your tune. As far as you having no use for me or my opinions well that's just a statement that a sanctimonious blowhard would make. Like I said living in a World of absolutes must be quite refreshing or maybe it's just your closed mind and inability to see others points of view. I went back and Edited just because you mentioned it and it seemed to bother you. Childish I know, but amusing.
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Post by Thinking-long-term on Jan 27, 2011 20:28:37 GMT -5
Of course sex is moral training, at least in part. Too many people tie morals to religion for some reason. One can have morals without being religious. My mother did tell me that I should wait to have sex until it was with someone special and that I loved. She told me her story of peer pressure and having sex because "everyone else was having it", and how she regretted it since because it was a person she didn't love. My mother's teachings had nothing to do with religion, they were rooted in the general morality of how you should treat human beings. My wife, unfortunately, has a similar story to my mother of losing hers to someone irrelevant. My mother also taught me the importance of treating women with respect and that they were not an object. The school can teach me where to put it and how to cover it but parents are ultimately responsible for how you treat the partners you eventually lay with. More importantly, without the proper upbringing and focus from the parents and the impact that it has on your self esteem [i.e. I own my body] then you will likely end up in compromising positions regardless of what you learn in school. It's not ignorance that leads a young woman to not demand a man wear a condom or a man to not demand wearing one himself. Lack of self esteem or respect for the young woman is though. [/size] [/quote] Very well put.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 20:31:20 GMT -5
I still think you can teach self respect and responsiblity without terming it 'morality class'... i don't think you actually ever tell a child, 'I'm teaching you morality now"... and i don't see how parents can argue with reinforceing concepts of self respect and personal responsibility.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jan 27, 2011 20:33:55 GMT -5
It does seem to me that most people against abortion , at least the vocal ones, are men.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 27, 2011 20:42:20 GMT -5
Morality is completely subjective and not the best thing to base decisions on. I still don't think sex has anything to do with morals, regardless.
But I agree with op - one can definitely teach self-esteem and responsibility without ever touching on "morality".
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Post by Thinking-long-term on Jan 27, 2011 21:07:00 GMT -5
Morality is completely subjective and not the best thing to base decisions on. I still don't think sex has anything to do with morals, regardless. But I agree with op - one can definitely teach self-esteem and responsibility without ever touching on "morality". Morality, right and wrong same thing isn't it?
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 21:19:30 GMT -5
Morality is completely subjective and not the best thing to base decisions on. I still don't think sex has anything to do with morals, regardless. But I agree with op - one can definitely teach self-esteem and responsibility without ever touching on "morality". I dunno. I think it may depend on one's definition of morality. Pondering
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 21:37:30 GMT -5
Morality, IMHO, is best taught by example and communicating ones values and beliefs through the way one lives their life. You don't teach it by lecture, but by demonstrating what values you subscribe to.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Jan 27, 2011 21:41:01 GMT -5
Love'm till they're out of the womb .. then .. it's a tough world out there .. hope your parents get a job ... or ... at least you were born
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 21:45:58 GMT -5
But I agree with op - one can definitely teach self-esteem and responsibility without ever touching on "morality".
I disagree, Loopdilou. I think responsibility and morality go hand in hand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 21:50:55 GMT -5
Well, morality has to do with right versus wrong. So if you are discussing why it is right to be respectful to and responsiblity for your self... i can see pointing out how self respect and self responsibility are right, personally and for society...
... however, i don't think the school has a right to 'moralize' sex... ie. they should not be saying SEX is right in these cases and wrong in these cases...
does that make sense?
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Post by marjar on Jan 27, 2011 22:00:31 GMT -5
Well, morality has to do with right versus wrong. So if you are discussing why it is right to be respectful to and responsiblity for your self... i can see pointing out how self respect and self responsibility are right, personally and for society... ... however, i don't think the school has a right to 'moralize' sex... ie. they should not be saying SEX is right in these cases and wrong in these cases... does that make sense? No, but but teaching responsibility, respect for self and others...........those can and should be addressed. I think they are part of the ball of wax we consider morality.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jan 27, 2011 22:21:22 GMT -5
Well, morality has to do with right versus wrong. So if you are discussing why it is right to be respectful to and responsiblity for your self... i can see pointing out how self respect and self responsibility are right, personally and for society... ... however, i don't think the school has a right to 'moralize' sex... ie. they should not be saying SEX is right in these cases and wrong in these cases... does that make sense? that makes perfect sense. if they are teaching the way they should, they would be teaching the biology and saying that this is how sex works, how reproduction works, and here are the consequences to it. oh, and here are the options for getting through those consequences should you find yourself in a position to need them. factual information can't be challenged.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 27, 2011 23:20:25 GMT -5
Well, morality has to do with right versus wrong. So if you are discussing why it is right to be respectful to and responsiblity for your self... i can see pointing out how self respect and self responsibility are right, personally and for society... ... however, i don't think the school has a right to 'moralize' sex... ie. they should not be saying SEX is right in these cases and wrong in these cases... does that make sense? that makes perfect sense. if they are teaching the way they should, they would be teaching the biology and saying that this is how sex works, how reproduction works, and here are the consequences to it. oh, and here are the options for getting through those consequences should you find yourself in a position to need them. factual information can't be challenged. Thank you, Chiver. Technically there is no right or wrong to sex. There is right and wrong to how you use sex, but even that is subjective. There is also a right and wrong to how one abuses sex, but that's also arguably subjective. The only time sex is truly wrong (amoral) is when it is non-consensual. However, THAT does not need to be a blatant part of a sexual education curriculum. One can, and should, stress the importance of consensual sex (whenever the teacher says "sex" it should be preceded by "consensual"), but beyond that the MORALITY of sex does not belong in a classroom. I'm probably not making any sense. I just get sensitive when people say their version of right and wrong is what is moral.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 23:24:21 GMT -5
The only time sex is truly wrong (amoral) is when it is non-consensual. However, THAT does not need to be a blatant part of a sexual education curriculum
Why not? ... I think it should be... health and safety again... and self respect and responsibilty... rape, date rape, statutory rape, good touch bad touch... I think it should be taught...
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 27, 2011 23:29:14 GMT -5
You're probably right. I'm not even making sense to myself this evening. I think I'm trying to make a point that I'm incapable of making.
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steff
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Post by steff on Jan 27, 2011 23:30:29 GMT -5
The only time sex is truly wrong (amoral) is when it is non-consensual. However, THAT does not need to be a blatant part of a sexual education curriculum. One can, and should, stress the importance of consensual sex (whenever the teacher says "sex" it should be preceded by "consensual"
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I agree with not liking the idea of "morality" being tied in with sex ed... I feel like that (no matter if it's intentional or not) comes just a little too close to the religious morality being taught. It's why I had such an issue with the wedding bells & "don't until you say I do" braclets being passed out. I DO think that the "consensual" aspect needs to be introduced into it. Date rape happens all too often and both the boys and the girls need to understand early on that no means no, that taking a girl out on a date doesn't mean you get some, that if she doesn't want to-then she doesn't have to. Often teens aren't clued in on date rape until college. I'm all for giving as much info as possible to help avoid issues & make good choices. A class or two spent on date rape and advice like "don't ever walk away from your glass at a party, don't accept a glass from someone you don't know or don't trust" would be a VERY good thing to have.
now I think I'm not making sense....lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2011 23:32:53 GMT -5
They should also know that if they are 19 and have sex with a 16 year old, consensual or not, they could end up on the sexual predator list for life...
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steff
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Post by steff on Jan 27, 2011 23:44:22 GMT -5
I'm also a believer that "good touch/bad touch" needs to be taught to younger (elementary) kids too. Kids need to know that there's always someone they can talk to. Home isn't always the safe place. We all want it to be, but sometimes, it's not. They need to know early and often that there's always someone safe to talk to, no matter what. If that's a teacher, a councelor, a principal, the nurse, whoever.... they need to know that there's always somewhere safe to turn to.
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