Does God exist ?

[Tosh]

Mothers of troops in active service wake up every morning with a subconscious fear for their sons or daughters well being.
One day a car will pull up and their fears will be realized and they attach a special significance to the dread felt that particular day.

Not many people were concerned about the well being of their loved ones who were working in the Twin Towers on the 11th of September 2001.

I have always wondered what went through the minds of people sipping coffee at work, high up in the first tower looking out the window and seeing an airliner heading straight for them.

[Shirina]

While Tosh and I wrangle like cobra and mongoose over the validity of my claims, I would like to thank everyone for their support and understanding. My upbringing was, well, rather masculine - I was taught to never show weakness, never show fear, lead instead of follow, do not back down from your convictions - that sort of thing. I always feel like revealing a story like that would show me as being weak ... a silly notion, I know, and my rational mind dismisses it, but I usually keep this kind of thing to myself. Even after the day he died, I only told less than half-dozen of my closest friends what really happened. The rest, I told that VK and I had simply broken up.

And I never meant to make anyone cry! I don't want to make anyone feel sad, though I suppose it was inevitable given the less than happy ending. If only life really let us walk off into the sunset as the credits rolled ... such a romantic notion and one that never seems to happen in the real world.

Again, my thanks and appreciation for making the sharing of these events far less painful than it could have been. I was actually a bit apprehensive coming back here, wondering what kind of reactions I would receive.

[Tosh]

Well, Tosh, I think you know my mind as well as anyone on the internet, and I believe it would be fair to say that I am a very cerebral person - some have accused me of being cold, emotionless, and logical to a fault. I have analyzed what happened to me inside and out, and I can assure you, it wasn't just a normal "down day."

Shirina,

I know you better than you think.

Cerebral....you think a lot.

Cold.....poor social skills.

Emotionless...you do not like to get hurt.

Logical...you believe in ghosts and UFOs.

At best I would put your experience down to coincidence, nothing more.

[Shirina]

Mothers of troops in active service wake up every morning with a subconscious fear for their sons or daughters well being.

Mothers of troops often have every reason to fear for their children serving overseas. I had no such fears. For heaven's sake, Tosh, I was 17! I was in the prime of my youth, invincible, untouchable, sitting on top of the world. I was deliriously happy with my life. You know how teens are - reckless, irresponsible, even stupid - because teens rarely ever think of the "what ifs" in life ... except in romance, of course, and then teens "what if" everything.

Teens will brazenly drive a car 100 mph along back country roads at night and never once feel scared of dying, but will turn into a pile of apprehensive goo on the floor at the prospects of asking their crushes out on a date. You know how that works, I'm sure.

Death and dying ... hardly ever even thought of it. It wasn't even on the radar then. I didn't have a reason in the world to suspect that anything had happened to VK.

I have always wondered what went through the minds of people sipping coffee at work, high up in the first tower looking out the window and seeing an airliner heading straight for them.

Yeah, I've thought of that too. I have sat and stared at those images of people in the towers hanging out of the window, and I can't even begin to imagine the horror they felt when they decided to jump instead of being burned alive. It is too awful to even contemplate.

Cold.....poor social skills.

LOL! I actually have very good social skills in the real world. Socially, I've had one hell of a life and wouldn't trade it for anything. The internet, though, that's another matter. The social dynamics are subtly different, and being the non-conformist that I've always been, I just can't quite play by the rules enough to "fit in." But that's fine by me.

At best I would put your experience down to coincidence, nothing more.

Well, I can't make you believe me nor did I really expect you to. But, I would like to point out that, thus far, you have focused only on the day of VK's death. The bond itself, however, still remains extant and unchallenged.

[Tosh]

But, I would like to point out that, thus far, you have focused only on the day of VK's death. The bond itself, however, still remains extant and unchallenged.

I do not doubt the existence or the strength of the bond.

Was his name Venkataraghavan or Venkat for short ?

I am a cricket fan.

[Shirina]

Heh, no ... it wasn't quite that bad. It was Vijaynesh.

[Spellbound454]

I have to support Shirina on this one because similar things have happened to me.

The night my dad died I woke up and sensed his presence in the room......and when the hospital rang to say that he had passed away, there was no surprise....... I already knew.
Haven't sensed him since, so he is definitely gone.

I've also lost my soul mate....and although there have been others before and since...they are not him.

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2011 8:20:45 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I have to support Shirina on this one because similar things have happened to me.

The night my dad died I woke up and sensed his presence in the room......and when the hospital rang to say that he had passed away, there was no surprise....... I already knew.
Haven't sensed him since, so he is definitely gone.

I've also lost my soul mate....and although there have been others before and since...they are not him.

I have had that experience as well, and not just once. A sudden undefinable knowledge that someone has passed.
Then the phone call that confirms what you already knew.

The dreams, well that is another thing.
There is no advantage to knowing a tiny bit of the future, none.

[Tosh]

Good evening Lonewolf,

Fear not young maiden the fair knight Tosh Galahad will protect your honor in all matters spiritual, you can open up your heart on this thread with impunity, never fear Tosh is here.

As long as it not too crazy, its not about sex with aliens is it ?

Only kidding fire away.

[roygrip]

Shirina, thanks so much for sharing that. I relate to several parts for which I shall remain silent now, to be shared later. But you are not alone. Thank you.

[Tosh]

The most improbable thing I have ever witnessed happened some 15 years ago in a casino in Blackpool, the number 7 was spun 7 consecutive times, it should be graded as a miracle, the odds are 65 billion to 1. To put this into perspective, the odds of being killed by a coconut landing on your head is a measly 250 million to 1.

I witnessed a modern day miracle, does it prove anything supernatural exists ?

No.

[gavinsnana]

Afternoon All,

Its nice to know that I am not alone in sensing the afterlife experiences. Lone, I would love to hear your story as well.

I have heard many saying that these things happened to them, and I will tell you that I never really believed them or thought they were imagining it, until it happened to me.

Things moved, lights flickered, I sensed his presence.. his cross that was on his casket came flying off the wall. I did not imagine any of it. At first, it scared the hell out of me. I had the lights checked out by an electrician, nothing. Then they flickered for the last time and nothing sense.

I feel like his soul/spirit was lingering.. and he has moved on to where he was suppose to go..

Thats my take on it anyway...

Have a nice weekend everyone, we are heading out to hear some music in a bit..

[roygrip]

Nov 5, 2011 15:56:51 GMT -5 Tosh said:

The most improbable thing I have ever witnessed happened some 15 years ago in a casino in Blackpool, the number 7 was spun 7 consecutive times, it should be graded as a miracle, the odds are 65 billion to 1. To put this into perspective, the odds of being killed by a coconut landing on your head is a measly 250 million to 1.

I witnessed a modern day miracle, does it prove anything supernatural exists ?

No.

It's a miracle the coconut didn't hit me just now!

[Shirina]

I am considering sharing my story, but fear I will not be taken seriously by many.

Hello, lonewolf:

I thought the same before I posted, but as you can see, everyone has been very supportive and understanding. Tosh, of course, will be Tosh (LOL!) and thus he will search for the most rational explanation, but I wouldn't take it personally. Sometimes we do need to question experiences that seem "supernatural." It helps us avoid self-deception. But I would be interested in hearing your story as well, and you are, of course, free to send a PM if you decide posting it here is not what you wish to do.

[Tosh]

Speaking of miracles, I would like to give you my thoughts on the origin of Christianity, a religion that would not exist if not for the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christianity stands or falls on one event, the physical resurrection of a dead human being.

I am not saying my theory is true, I am simply offering up what I believe to be a more plausible explanation of this defining event.

Jesus was viewed by his followers as a Jewish Messiah come to free them from slavery and oppression and they believed his prophecy that the end of the world and the son of man were imminent. Jesus was baptized by an apocalyptic John at the beginning of his ministry and Paul as the earliest written source, confirms and shares his apocalyptic message at the end of his ministry. In the middle is the ministry of Jesus itself, it is illogical to claim that his apocalyptic teachings are metaphoric when the evidence clearly points to an apocalyptic beginning and end. Jesus was a very big deal to a lot of very religious and desperate JEWS, let me repeat JEWS.

And then their greatest hope of salvation was executed like a common criminal by their oppressors, possibly in collaboration with their own religious authorities. After his death they turned to their scriptures in desperate hope of an answer, it did not make sense, how could a man they truly believed to be the Messiah be dead and they were still enslaved.

They found the answer they were looking for in Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and 69, these passages refer to the righteous one of God suffering death. Jesus was the righteous one exalted and vindicated by God, just like Elijah and Enoch, spiritually ascended into heaven and according to scripture no longer dead.
Jesus was a spiritual Messiah and not an earthly one, one who would return imminently and complete his task and bring in the apocalypse as the son of man.
As time past, stories of a spiritual resurrection are exaggerated into the physical resurrection of Jesus, probably to reinforce waning belief in his return. 25 years after his death Saul has a vision of Jesus which confirms he is not dead, Saul is convinced Jesus is the righteous and exalted one who will soon return as the spiritual Messiah to bring in the Kingdom. Saul never mentions the physical absence of Jesus body ever, this did not arrive until a few decades later in Mark with simply an empty tomb, Mathew, Luke and John written a few decades more extrapolate this event in greater and greater detail, as it grows in importance, .

The Jews simply rejected Jesus as the righteous one, a spiritual messiah or the exalted one of God, and they certainly did not believe these titles enabled Jesus to be physically resurrected, they understood their own scriptures.

Christianity became popular out with Judea where knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures was nil, during the 1 st century we can see a gradual move away from the original Jewish concept of spiritual resurrection to the Pagan physical resurrection.

By the time John is written Jesus is the physically resurrected son of God, in effect a pagan demi-god and the importance of his imminent return had been replaced with his divinity, sacrifice and suffering.

The religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus.

[Shirina]

I witnessed a modern day miracle, does it prove anything supernatural exists ?

Hello, Deirdre. ;D

You're trying to compare dependent variables with independent variables. The odds of a seven coming up a second time are exactly the same as they were the first time. The first variable does not influence the second variable. Thus they are independent.

There is also the question of how many times the wheel is spun. If you spin it often enough, having 7 sevens come up becomes a mathematical certainty (of course you'd have to spin it 65 billion times to achieve that certainty). However, this does not mean that it will happen on the 65 billionth spin. It could happen the very first time.

In my case, there is a set of dependent variables, meaning all of the events would have had to unfold exactly as they did for the event to have taken place. The events influence each other. We could start by calculating the odds of VK and I being born on the same year in the same country in the same town and living close enough to each other to even meet. Once you figured that one out, we can go through all the rest of the dependent variables.

[Tosh]

Shirina,

lololol, can you remmber who I said that to, was it Nobama ?

Good old deirdre and her ajna chakras.

[Shirina]

I am not saying my theory is true, I am simply offering up what I believe to be a more plausible explanation of this defining event.

Aww, Tosh, so rarely do you and I get to spar. Usually I agree with you far too often, just like I do with your theory on the apotheosis of Jesus. It seems logical enough to me.

[Shirina]

lololol, can you remmber who I said that to, was it Nobama ?

LOL! I forgot about Nobama. I don't think I've ever encountered a more angry Buddhist - or whatever he was. He was always talking about taking me to Rachel, Nevada near Area 51 and eating at the Little Alie'inn restaurant ... then he'd turn around and insult me. Ha! Now, the odds of me going anywhere with him are far greater than 1 in 65 billion!

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2011 15:56:51 GMT -5 Tosh said:

The most improbable thing I have ever witnessed happened some 15 years ago in a casino in Blackpool, the number 7 was spun 7 consecutive times, it should be graded as a miracle, the odds are 65 billion to 1. To put this into perspective, the odds of being killed by a coconut landing on your head is a measly 250 million to 1.

I witnessed a modern day miracle, does it prove anything supernatural exists ?

No.

Tosh, are your comments based on an a prior assumption that our known physical laws are all there is.
How do you know all that is possible and impossible?
Our natural laws are our interpretation of how the universe works. These laws are subject to change as new discoveries are made, which is how science has always been.
Ergo, seeing as how you believe in science you must believe that your current interpretation of how the universe works will change.

[Tosh]

Hi Joey,

Tosh, are your comments based on an a prior assumption that our known physical laws are all there is.

Nope, we have much still to learn, what we do know is our minds are incapable of transmitting or receiving mental messages.

How do you know all that is possible and impossible?

One can not know, one has to deduce what is probable or improbable.

Our natural laws are our interpretation of how the universe works. These laws are subject to change as new discoveries are made, which is how science has always been.

I agree, however there is no sense in distorting existing laws to accommodate primitive supernatural beliefs.

Ergo, seeing as how you believe in science you must believe that your current interpretation of how the universe works will change.

It may or may not change depending on results, why this should effect our physical explanations of our consciousness and its relationship with the brain is not clear to me.

Our heightened awareness predicts or senses events based on physical input, we can not receive other peoples thoughts or feelings by non-physical means.

[Tosh]

We find it difficult to accept our minds and senses are imperfect and flawed, we want to believe certain explanations are true but are infuriated by scientific explanations which contradict our senses and our minds.

We are aware of our consciousness and we want it to be an entity outwith the physical laws, eternal, omnipotent and omniscient, do these properties ring any bells ?

[gavinsnana]

Morning Everyone, Happy Monday. The time changed yesterday.. One hour back.. more sleep, less daylight! UGH.. it gets dark at 5:30 now..

[Tosh]

Afternoon Texas,

Do you believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus or do you believe his followers saw a vision of his spirit ?

The earliest testimony of Paul seems to suggest the followers experienced the same appearance as himself, his description of his visionary experience was spiritual in nature.

[femmefatale]

Nov 7, 2011 9:21:51 GMT -5 gavinsnana said:

Morning Everyone, Happy Monday. The time changed yesterday.. One hour back.. more sleep, less daylight! UGH.. it gets dark at 5:30 now..

It does here too Nanna. GM everyone. :

[Tosh]

What evidence can one produce to persuade people that God does not exist if these same people do not value evidence ?

What logic can we deduce to persuade people that God does not exist if these same people do not value logic ?

How can one prove that faith is an illogical and an unreasonable concept when faith refutes the value of proof and logic ?

Religion to me seems to be built on the false premise that it is true because it says it is true, I know of no other context in our daily lives where we accept this premise.
Another similar premise is that religion is true because we want it to be true, that truth somehow depends on its utility, I fail to see the value in creating a society without uncomfortable truths.

Building cultures and worldviews around comfortable lies seems to me to be almost a childlike approach to reality and a form of delusion.

Vote realism, vote now.

[femmefatale]

[Deleted]

Shirina, I am so sorry you lost VK and at such a young age.

Perhaps the Old Testament god is the correct one, because only a cruel and ruthless deity would have you experience a love like that and then snatch it away so soon.

[Tosh]

Perhaps the Old Testament god is the correct one, because only a cruel and ruthless deity

Take one glance at nature, living things eat other living things to survive and reproduce, life is built around one main principle " Thou shalt kill ".

[Deleted]

True. Perhaps we humans should spend less time analyzing our feelings and more time hunting and gathering. ;D