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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 23:42:14 GMT -5
The federal government took the position that the megacompany was legally responsible for the widespread use of store cleaning staff without work permission. Although Walmart contested the charges, they agreed to pay an $11 million fine and change their practices.
The way I see it, the government agreeing that walmart is in the wrong pretty much confirms to me that walmart is right.
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Post by lakhota on May 28, 2011 23:47:02 GMT -5
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 28, 2011 23:49:32 GMT -5
Cub Foods Ignores Worker's Hunger Strike, Hundreds Rally for
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 23:52:43 GMT -5
The federal government took the position that the megacompany was legally responsible for the widespread use of store cleaning staff without work permission. Although Walmart contested the charges, they agreed to pay an $11 million fine and change their practices.The way I see it, the government agreeing that walmart is in the wrong pretty much confirms to me that walmart is right. and is why with such comments I see some NIc , have gotten in the habit of scroll baby, scroll.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 29, 2011 0:01:27 GMT -5
Fired Cleaner Triggers Cub Foods In Store Protest
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 29, 2011 0:19:50 GMT -5
Grocery Guard Bags Non-Violent Protester
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 29, 2011 1:17:53 GMT -5
CTUL Press Conference
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on May 29, 2011 5:00:00 GMT -5
Well, if he is a legal immigrant he can probably unionize. If he is Illegal, send him back!
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 29, 2011 6:31:06 GMT -5
Sweeping floors and cleaning toilets is a dead-end job. There's really nowhere to go except, perhaps, a dubious title like "head janitor" or something. The problem here is that one cannot really "better himself" to reach a higher tier because there is no higher tier. This person would have to go to school or some such - difficult to do when you're trying to take care of a family in Mexico on $9 per hour.
Then this person will have a degree, most likely a hefty student loan to pay off, and he'll still be sweeping floors. Do you know why? It's because he won't have any experience doing the job he went to school for. Experience is king in this economy, not education, and I was personally told by a job head-hunter once even before the big recession hit that many college grads are finding themselves working low paid "grunt" jobs because people are only hiring experienced people to avoid training costs.
This man might be better off staying where he is until the economy improves and businesses get off their stacks of money and start hiring (corporate profits were up by 12% over the last few months, so the money is there). An education or even learning a trade was once considered an investment in your future. Now, it's simply putting $30,000 in a slot machine and hoping for the best.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 7:39:33 GMT -5
Sweeping floors and cleaning toilets is a dead-end job. There's really nowhere to go except, perhaps, a dubious title like "head janitor" or something. The problem here is that one cannot really "better himself" to reach a higher tier because there is no higher tier. This person would have to go to school or some such - difficult to do when you're trying to take care of a family in Mexico on $9 per hour. Then this person will have a degree, most likely a hefty student loan to pay off, and he'll still be sweeping floors. Do you know why? It's because he won't have any experience doing the job he went to school for. Experience is king in this economy, not education, and I was personally told by a job head-hunter once even before the big recession hit that many college grads are finding themselves working low paid "grunt" jobs because people are only hiring experienced people to avoid training costs. This man might be better off staying where he is until the economy improves and businesses get off their stacks of money and start hiring (corporate profits were up by 12% over the last few months, so the money is there). An education or even learning a trade was once considered an investment in your future. Now, it's simply putting $30,000 in a slot machine and hoping for the best. And it is thinking like this that there is no personal responsibility involved. Jose is in a dead end job has been for 9 years has no reason to better his lot in life because of what ever xyz reason you choose to come up with. Carlson set Jose and the cleaning crews wages, Cub foods went with what is a good faith estimate of the bid to have there floors cleaned, simply because Carlson is a subcontractor of Cub does not mean Cub foods is responsible for Jose wages. Cub Food pays Carlson for a service, Carlson pays the cleaning crew to preform said service, to blame the Grocer is ridiculous.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 29, 2011 7:49:26 GMT -5
How do you even know if Jose is capable of bettering himself? Sure, he could learn the language, which would obviously help, but to succeed in the modern world, one needs a lot of brains. Maybe he doesn't have them. Who knows? You make far too many assumptions about Jose in order to make your argument work.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 29, 2011 8:00:53 GMT -5
Just like that? Presto!
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 8:23:28 GMT -5
How do you even know if Jose is capable of bettering himself? Sure, he could learn the language, which would obviously help, but to succeed in the modern world, one needs a lot of brains. Maybe he doesn't have them. Who knows? You make far too many assumptions about Jose in order to make your argument work. You speak of my assumptions, so you think that no matter what had Jose tried to do better he would have never done more or better. Had Jose learned the language he could have possibly gotten a different and better job in the last 9 years, had Jose tried to "make his way" and learn a trade (you do not need a college degree to make more than 9$ an hour), had Jose Tried we do not know what his future would have held. What we do know is 1. Jose has been doing the same job for 9 years, 2. Jose requires an interpreter, 3. Jose is blaming his situation on others when he could have at some point in time taken a personal interest in the betterment of his life. But, for you it seems easier to vilify the one who is not involved (cub Foods/SuperValu) and not the subcontractor Carlson. Now I am going to ask you to show me where an Democrat President/Congressman/Representative has ever talked legislation on the "living wage" argument. We have a Federal Minimum wage that is not required to be upheld in every state.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on May 29, 2011 8:38:31 GMT -5
Good Lord. A few years ago I got night job [ufcw] breaking down loads and stocking shelves at a local grocery store to help pay off some medical bills. I am not a druggie,a wife beater,drunk,or whatever else you may think the kid bagging your groceries may be. I met some great people there,...pretty much a cross sample of the people you meet anywhere in your neighborhood. Why not ask the cashier checking you out next time which one of those descriptions fit them and see what they say?
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on May 29, 2011 8:45:54 GMT -5
That pretty much sums up the way I feel about people crying about others compensation and benefits all the time.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 9:04:15 GMT -5
How do you even know if Jose is capable of bettering himself? Sure, he could learn the language, which would obviously help, but to succeed in the modern world, one needs a lot of brains. Maybe he doesn't have them. Who knows? You make far too many assumptions about Jose in order to make your argument work.
Sorry, but you can make some general assumptions about Jose simply because you have a 9 year history in which he did nothing to better himself. There is opportunity right there in front of him & he has done nothing about it. He can't get more pay, then why doesn't he get the guys that work with him & start their own business cleaning? The next time the contract comes up HE could bid on it. Less money for the company & more money for the workers. Company HQ could be his home. What's more, I'm sure that he (or the people he works for) know all the local businesses that hire out cleaning services & he can bid on those contracts.
If the company he starts doesn't need to make a lot of money (just the workers) then he can obviously under bid on every single contract. Has he or any of his coworkers done that....No. Why not? Maybe it's because he is here illegally so maybe he might want to address that first (if that's a problem). Maybe he & all his friends want to piss, moan, & whine at a company that he doesn't even work for (& which also cuts down his options in the present & future because they sure wouldn't hire him).
Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy or the other workers. They have done nothing to improve their lives themselves & want others to do it for them. To get my sympathy someone has to do the best that they can, try every option, & fail through not fault of their own. This guy (& those that work with him) not only haven't done that but they haven't even done step 1 in 9 years which is learn English.
This post is a great post for demonstrating the differences between Liberals & Conservatives. Not a complex situation with easy to understand facts. It even shows the differences in what we want for governments. Liberals want governments, companies, etc to do things for the "little people" to make them successful. Conservatives want the "little people" to do for themselves & make a success of themselves (the old American dream).
Of course this post hasn't changed my mind on what the correct path is as I'm sure that it hasn't changed Liberals minds on what the correct path is. We are so far apart (because of the way we look at it) that we can't even agree on who the bad guy is here. Darned interesting.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 9:20:29 GMT -5
I see neither a good guy nor a bad guy in this situation. What I see is someone who is looking to change the rules of the game (Jose and people like him) who instead of taking there income issue up with there employer is looking to change the rules mid game. By blaming Cub Foods/SuperValu all they are doing is trying to once again say that big business is a boggy man looking to destroy the little man even though big business is the one who is providing a wage (whether it's living or not which in and of itself is subjective).
Jose (and those like him) have opportunity the question is do they have the drive to do better or is the only thing they can do is whine and cry demanding others better there situation without putting in the work themselves.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 11:16:54 GMT -5
This is all stupid, IMO. Cab drivers in Tucson are down to a third of our income from about 3 years ago. It's the economy. We went from working 9, 10, 11 hour days for $100+, to 15, 18 hour days for -$100. It's the stupid economy. You can move on and try to do better elsewhere, or wait it out hoping it will change, or whatever. You won't find cab drivers in Tucson protesting the economy. You may find them napping in their cabs, but not trying to sue the company because business sux. Deal with it, move on, whatever. Just shut up. Lots of other people will take the job if you don't want it.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 11:30:49 GMT -5
Why is productivity soaring while wages are falling to earth? How does that make sense?
This always happens when the economy pulls back. Companies get lean (cut back on workers) which means that they produce the same with less workers (ie: productivity soars). There are a lot of people out of work so when companies start hiring they can pick & choose workers & even start them at a lower pay than if those same workers were in demand.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 11:37:12 GMT -5
Ok Liberals. Not only do I not agree with you but I really don't understand your reasoning. I bet a lot of other conservatives are in the same boat. How about you guys explaining it to us using this case. Lets say this guy works for the company 30 years & retired from working there. What do you think he should be making at the end of that time & also the raises during that time? Should he have a 401k? Should the company match? If so what? How about explaining it to us?
Starting wage Pay after 5 years = pay after 10 years = pay after 15 years = pay after 20 years = pay after 25 years = pay at retirement = 401K (yes or no) Company match (yes or no) What year working for the company would it start? If yes, what percent? =
Educate us!
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on May 29, 2011 11:41:04 GMT -5
My answer would be they should try to get as much as they can. And the company will say only as much as we have to to stay competative in the labor market.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on May 29, 2011 11:49:22 GMT -5
<<< We are so far apart (because of the way we look at it) that we can't even agree on who the bad guy is here. Darned interesting. >>>
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 13:22:18 GMT -5
My answer would be they should try to get as much as they can. And the company will say only as much as we have to to stay competative in the labor market.
Ugonow. But your the liberal owner/manager of the story (or company). You started him off at $9.00. Now tell us what you would do for him & how much you would pay him?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2011 13:25:34 GMT -5
Surely Warsaw & Lakota are going to answer this? After all they are the leading liberals on the boards & Lakota even started this thread.
Come on guys!
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Post by Opti on May 29, 2011 13:42:54 GMT -5
I do feel for guy a bit, but man he lives in Minnesota and still has that $300-$400/mo he could be using to eat or saving up to start a company or something. I think its bad they are picketing Cub Foods instead of their employer. The only demands they should really have of Cub Foods is perhaps work out a legal way that the outsourced cleaners have a crack at the food before it gets thrown out. Had no idea floor cleaners got paid better than sales associates at major department stores. Lastly, "Jose makes 9 dollars an hour times that by 40 hours a week = $360.00 per week pre-tax or $18,720.00, a family household size of 1 = a poverty level pre-tax of $10,830.00 www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/00151.pdf So we see that Jose is making just shy of 2x's the poverty level, which would be a living wage." This to me is BS. The poverty level in the US is artificial like the measure of inflation and does not take into account differing living costs in parts of the US. It looks to me like it is a living, if barely, wage in Minnesota but IMO would not be in San Franciso or most of the tri-state area here on the east coast.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 13:55:43 GMT -5
This to me is BS. The poverty level in the US is artificial like the measure of inflation and does not take into account differing living costs in parts of the US. It looks to me like it is a living, if barely, wage in Minnesota but IMO would not be in San Franciso or most of the tri-state area here on the east coast. And that is why poverty level is determined by state parameters. Family of 2 $ 2,429mth $ 29,140yr for California. www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/medi-cal/eligibility/Documents/FPL%20Chart%20for%20PE.pdfOptimist4Life, just because you believe it to be BS doesn't make it so, the facts unadulterated, show what they show, it is cheaper to live in MN than CA, thus a lower poverty level in that state.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on May 29, 2011 13:58:42 GMT -5
A company is not in business to provide livings.A company will pay what they have to to be competative in the labor market.They will pay what they need to to attract and keep decent workers.Grocery store labor is not hard to replace or find people for,so it pretty much starts out at minimum wage and no benefits for a year...at least the one I spent a year at did.Then raises are minimal.They said after a year,they planned to put me on a fast track,but as I just wanted to pay off some medical bills,I left before the year was up.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 29, 2011 14:03:48 GMT -5
How dare they protest , make complaints...try to organize as a labor unit..shameful, where do they think they are, America?? oops..oh, they are Americans, sorry there. , me bad.
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Post by Opti on May 29, 2011 14:05:52 GMT -5
cme, the federal poverty level is used for many government programs, qualifiying for EITC and only Alaska and Hawaii are deemed different enough to have their own tables for 2011. www.coverageforall.org/pdf/FHCE_FedPovertyLevel.pdfIt is quite possible the states use different "poverty levels" for qualifying for affordable housing and perhaps other things. NJ uses the federal guidelines for foodstamps even though for affordable housing, the top tier, moderate, stops around $48-$50K for one person in the three counties I have checked.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 14:09:35 GMT -5
How dare they protest , make complaints...try to organize as a labor unit..shameful, where do they think they are, America?? oops..oh, they are Americans, sorry there. , me bad. Shame on them Dezi for protesting the wrong business, it is not Cub Foods/SuperValu that they are employed by, but that doesn't matter right, do not go after the one who pays the employee, instead go after the big business who took advantage of the poor cleaning service. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I hope. I really hope that Cub Foods decides to cancel all contracts and takes the floor cleaning over internally and places Jose and all those like him on unemployment.
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