cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 19:42:04 GMT -5
I am confused about why one cannot give in secret or rather, simply pay decent wages to the poor. Remember, one is admonished to work or starve, but it also says that the workman is worthy of his wages. Not only is it not charity to pay a living wage, it is required. Anything less is theft. Only if you ascribe to biblical teachings. Not all businesses do, not all businesses should (cause I couldn't see Holy Rollers Gentleman's Club, Rev. Chesty Bottoms Ruffling your "pages" nightly going over too well). In the parable of the field workers, ones hired at 6am were paid the same as the ones hired at 5pm, when the ones who worked all day ask about it they are told, I agreed with you to a wage which you are paid, do not mind what I pay another. It was meant to speak to people to happy about there place because there are those who are worse off than you. What is a living wage? Jose makes 9 dollars an hour times that by 40 hours a week = $360.00 per week pre-tax or $18,720.00, a family household size of 1 = a poverty level pre-tax of $10,830.00 www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/00151.pdf So we see that Jose is making just shy of 2x's the poverty level, which would be a living wage. The attack against the Grocery store is ridiculous in the fact that Jose does not work for Cub foods or Supervalu yet he is expecting them to pay Carlson more so he can get more, that isn't how contract work works. What's going to happen if his "hunger" strike works is, Carlson loses the contract to clean the grocery store floors placing Jose out off work and Carlson taking on a part time night cleaning crew paying min wage to high school dropouts or illegals like Jose.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 28, 2011 19:42:17 GMT -5
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 19:47:33 GMT -5
It is possible to develop new job skills without acquiring student loans - and it is possible to acquire a reputation of being a reliable employee without additional cost - I would think Jose could have started learning English and maybe work into a shift supervisor position if he had been motivated - but just the idea that I've been here for a while so I should get paid more is very annoying to me
Maybe his employer feels that he's been here for a while so he should be doing a better job
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Post by lakhota on May 28, 2011 19:48:33 GMT -5
Oh goodie, circular reasoning. He doesn't work directly for the grocer - he works for a contractor who obviously bid the job low enough to get the contract.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 19:49:48 GMT -5
Oh goodie, circular reasoning. He doesn't work directly for the grocer - he works for a contractor who obviously bid the job low enough to get the contract. Jose needs to look for a new employer - he's not happy with his circumstances, he needs to change them
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 19:50:38 GMT -5
dezi, I know full well what we're dealing with. They are obviously part of the top 1% - or they wouldn't be making such comments. OR they are from the lower reaches and know they too are being taken advantage of with no way out in reality. Thus as so many times happens, If I can't improve my lot in life why should you, or in this case , this man. As this individual is, possible iffy legal status and if not, still obligations, the ones back home, even a month off with no wages unsustainable, and with a employer like this, they would fight tooth and nail to keep from collecting unemployment and possible some language skills, education lack of , so he is a hard worker and in ten more years, might be making $10 per hour... Actually, where you and I might differ, many in the 1%, they are more reasonable and understanding. Some times those who work under them, don't allow the real world from reaching those in the 1 % and are not fully aware, and granted , they could make the effort to understand and be informed , but reality, they work hard to get to the 1 % thus time is against that, so trust their underlings to take care of those matters, make sure fair is fair, and so many times those types are the least fair.
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Post by lakhota on May 28, 2011 19:50:59 GMT -5
Maybe he's also a crippled alcoholic drug addict? If he wasn't worth keeping, why wasn't he the one let go? Remember, 2 now do the work of three.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 19:53:41 GMT -5
dezi, I know full well what we're dealing with. They are obviously part of the top 1% - or they wouldn't be making such comments. No, I am no where near the 1% have worked at the same job for 3 years and haven't received a raise beyond the 1st one 3 months in, why? Because I know where the business is financially, 2 years ago we lost Vacation Days and Sick Days, 1.6 years ago we lost Holiday pay, yet giving up these benefits have allowed the owner to keep the doors open and allow me to work thus I am able to pay my bills. If he went out of business, once unemployment benefits went away I could hopefully get one of the min wage jobs that have a waiting list for.
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Post by lakhota on May 28, 2011 19:55:26 GMT -5
Maybe he finally realized it was time to stand and fight. He really has nothing to lose except his daily financial raping.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 19:55:44 GMT -5
Maybe he's also a crippled alcoholic drug addict? If he wasn't worth keeping, why wasn't he the one let go? Remember, 2 now do the work of three. Damn - you expect a business to be paying extra money to a crippled alcoholic drug addict? They should be getting a deduction for being a charity if that were the case. Companies are not in business to be a charity for its employees, companies hire employees to provide a service and they compensate for that service. If you, the employee, do not like the terms of your employment, you should go find another job
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 19:56:59 GMT -5
Maybe he finally realized it was time to stand and fight. He really has nothing to lose except his daily financial raping. and the pay check he was earning - but whatever
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Post by lakhota on May 28, 2011 19:58:49 GMT -5
It's called the "working poverty trap" and Jose was/is in it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 20:00:37 GMT -5
This thread is crazy.. Vonnie!!!
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:00:44 GMT -5
It's called the "working poverty trap" and Jose was/is in it. So is he looking for other employment or is he just whining?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:02:47 GMT -5
This thread is crazy.. Vonnie!!! Thanks Krickitt! I am pretty darn sure that Lak has never been a small business owner!
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 28, 2011 20:05:51 GMT -5
Not sure if it means anything but a true story. Back in the real past, before the war, my Dad was a manager in a retail discount patent medicine chain, all stiff but RX's..called Carroll Cut rate. He never graduated High School, depression had to work, but back then not uncommon and he was a trouble shooter, store had a problem he was sent to solve the problem.
He was in Boston store, Mom told me this story, Dad was honest as could be, deposits , money sent o the home Office in New haven , Ct , skims too, it was done, right to the dime. She who worked in the store even had to pay for sample cosmetics personal use if the Mfg sent any to the store.
There was a nice young man who worked the store and he was making not much I 'm going to guess , $16 bucks or so a week. Dad raised him by $10 per and the home office went nuts. He explained it to em..he was underpaid, not right , if kept paying him that low, only way to survive is to steal, wanted to put any of that out of the mind plus he was worth what he was going to be paid. Home office never said another word.
Tragic thing was the young man was one of those who died in the Coconut Grove fire, Mom said he was excited to be going with friends, even asked Mom and Dad if they wanted to join them after work, naturally married couple, thanked but said no. Never saw him alive again, nicest young guy you would want to know Mom said.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 20:05:54 GMT -5
Maybe he finally realized it was time to stand and fight. He really has nothing to lose except his daily financial raping. Now I am going to call you out on this Lahkota, you threw up many threads about the evil GOP trying to define rape yet you yourself are abusing the word. dictionary.reference.com/browse/raping7. to plunder (a place); despoil Jose is not a place so he is not being plundered, and Jose isn't being stripped of possessions, things of value, etc.; rob; plunder; pillage dictionary.reference.com/browse/despoil so there is noway he is being despoiled. Jose trades his time for a monetary value, when the monetary value is not equal to what you see your time being worth you make changes, is this case Jose needs to address his concerns to his employer not the grocery store.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:07:51 GMT -5
Dez - your Dad sounds like a great guy!
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:10:01 GMT -5
It's called the "working poverty trap" and Jose was/is in it. BS! The only traps out there are the ones people make for themselves. Good point!
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:23:29 GMT -5
For a start, they could make the food that is edible but old available to the employees at a reduced cost instead of tossing it. Cutting that waste wouldn't cost anything. In my home town - a lot of that food goes to the local soup kitchen/bread line
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 20:27:42 GMT -5
Charity begins at home. If their own employees are poverty cases, they get first crack. They are working there after all. Jose makes 9 dollars an hour times that by 40 hours a week = $360.00 per week pre-tax or $18,720.00, a family household size of 1 = a poverty level pre-tax of $10,830.00 www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/00151.pdf So we see that Jose is making just shy of 2x's the poverty level, which would be a living wage.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:32:56 GMT -5
Charity begins at home. If their own employees are poverty cases, they get first crack. They are working there after all. Jose makes 9 dollars an hour times that by 40 hours a week = $360.00 per week pre-tax or $18,720.00, a family household size of 1 = a poverty level pre-tax of $10,830.00 www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/00151.pdf So we see that Jose is making just shy of 2x's the poverty level, which would be a living wage. Even with choosing to send about 1/4 th of his money out of the country - maybe Jose needs to find and employed roommate
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 20:36:12 GMT -5
What Jose does with his money is of no consequence, what we are discussing is if Jose is in poverty which according to University of Minnesota he is not. He is the working poor, which most of the country falls into this category, most instead of blaming their problem on a mean employer find away to better there position.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:38:19 GMT -5
"Jose" is only a symbol. Working for a contractor or a temp agency instead of directly for an employer with decent benefits and salary is a horror-story. OK - and "Jose" has been there for 9 years? - has he made any attempt to find a better job, to improve his employability - like maybe learning English?
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:39:44 GMT -5
What Jose does with his money is of no consequence, what we are discussing is if Jose is in poverty which according to University of Minnesota he is not. He is the working poor, which most of the country falls into this category, most instead of blaming their problem on a mean employer find away to better there position. you are right - except the part of the story that Jose can't afford as much food as he would like, he might if he weren't sending $ out of the country
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 20:41:16 GMT -5
"Jose" is only a symbol. Working for a contractor or a temp agency instead of directly for an employer with decent benefits and salary is a horror-story. Sounds like a work story not a horror story. The horror story comes from Jose and those like him trying to play on heart-strings, instead of focusing on his employer paying him, they are trying to place blame on the Business that hired his company. It is not business's responcibility to see that subcontractor bids "cost of living adjustments" into his bid, it is businesses job to keep costs low so that prices can be competitive to bring in people to buy the products that provide the business the money to hire the subcontractor that pays Jose.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 28, 2011 20:48:21 GMT -5
I cannot tell you how many people of my acquaintance are having their formerly decent jobs being turned into nightmares. One woman I know tells me that her employer wants to cut her hours in half and as she is the head of household, is wondering whether she might be better off being fired. I urged her to assume that this will happen and look for a "moonlighting" job to save up some money before the ax falls. I have been offered 20/hour week, no benefit, $13.00/hour jobs in NYC and they want me to sign a CONTRACT to work this for 2 years. In other words, if something better came along, they expect me to stick with it. I decided that even the poorly-paid temp job I am on is better since it leaves me the option of disappearing without notice if something turns up. I thought slavery was dead. Many unions are rotating members through jobs so everyone gets something. One electrician of my sister's acquaintance was out 15 months and then nearly lost his new job when jury duty called. It is a jungle out there. Exactly, it is a jungle out there. With the labor market vs available jobs is right now symbolic "Jose" may find that he has it worse off than before, especially if business decides it is more "cost effective" to take the store cleaning over in house vs subbing it out.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on May 28, 2011 20:50:18 GMT -5
The issue is not with the store but the cleaning contractor. I wonder if he pays income tax and SS? There are a lot of unemployed americans that would work for $9.00 an hour
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on May 28, 2011 20:52:39 GMT -5
The issue is not with the store but the cleaning contractor. I wonder if he pays income tax and SS? There are a lot of unemployed americans that would work for $9.00 an hour Yes there are - and I know a few of them
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2011 20:55:04 GMT -5
Thank Obamacare for lots of the "temp" jobs, that seem to be real jobs.. except you are employed by your agency, and not your boss. That is just one of the tactics businesses are using to stay in business with new gov't mandates telling them they MUST do what they CANNOT do and still survive.
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