Here we go... let me get your personal opinions...

[TheHaitian]

I was not going to post this because I know how YM gets (been there, done that, got the picture)... and still debating posting it but why not. Cannot hurt to get different opinions in there.

I have to make a decision by the end of the year... what should it be? I had it all typed out to ask a friendlier/less judge crowd but since YM was my first money group and I think I can handle it : give me your best shot!
—————

I need your help ... I will make a decision within the next 2 weeks; just need a nudge in deciding which way to go. The reason I am contemplating that is because a few things may or may not change in the future and want to position myself in a way I can adapt...
-> we may be 2 households by the end next year.
-> considering this one in a million shot at this opportunity where they consider your overall finances and debt.

A) I can do nothing and continue paying $1,750-$2,000/month towards my debt till I pay it off. I can do that now but may be a stretch when I just have my income but not if I downsize or go with another plan : take on roommates.

B) take out a 50k loan at 4.5% from my 401k. That will pay most of the debt off and cost me ~$900/month vs ~$1,700/month . So that offers me some flexibility finance wise, paid back max 5 years but goal would be much sooner. If one chance in a million pans off, paying the penalty + income taxes on the 50k would be worth it.

C) just take the money out before the end of the year and avoid the 10% penalty under the care act. Accept I am reducing my 401k by that amount and pay myself back by being diligent and putting 1k/month into a taxable account for the next 5 years ... and continue long afterwards if feasible.
——> if one chance in a million pans out even better and continue on with above and maybe putting way more than 1k/month into taxable account and keep moving.

At this current time how I feel:

A) possible but don’t feel it is my best choice. I also can kiss goodbye at the chance of taking a shot at this opportunity (yes one in a million, harder than getting into Harvard but hey why not). The only silver lining to this is if we sale I can argue that the debt is “ours” and use the equity from the sale of the house to pay off the debt (or even if I just use my share of the equity that is a nice chunk). Or if we keep the house and I continue living there take on roommates that would cover a good portion of the mortgage and less for me to cover with income.
——> so to me this is the less desirable one.

B) being honest with myself I know I like this option because if requires that I pay back the loan so re-instating it back to its current shape. I know I still feel bad about taking the 20k out of my HSA at the beginning of this year; I know I have 20k in an account now during nothing that I could be throwing at the debt. I have this fear that the moment I touch savings/money something will happen and I regret touching it. Will be a serious issue when I retire and no income is coming in and I have to spend down savings, I hate doing it. But if I am looking at the tree vs the branches, that 20k went to pay Medical debt I would have needed to pay anyway so really looking at the balance I was still in neutral, took 20k in savings and put it towards debt. I need to stop focusing on savings / investing and debt separately and looking at whole picture.
——> only like this idea because like I stated there is a repayment plan and the money is put back. But now if 1 chance in a million pans out, I will need to quit my current job anyway so will have to pay taxes and penalty on that money...

C) I feel this is like ripping the band aid off and being done with it. I take the money out, pay the taxes on it and move forward. I free up ~$1,750-$2,000/month going towards debt and I focus on investing 1k/month (maybe more) in a taxable account and continue that God willing.
—-> take on opportunity and see if it pays off and if it does, sweet. If it doesn’t I am still “liquid” enough that I can continue investing 1k/month into a taxable account (first 5 years will be as repayment for the money taken out) and hopefully continue past that as habit.

Which would you pick?

[CCL]

Aren't you in a high tax bracket? That would make me hesitate to choose C. I like B better. I'm one of those people who hates to withdraw my money. I also feel like improved cash flow is pretty much always a good thing.

I hope you are contemplating this due to something positive coming into your life, a job promotion, maybe? I remember when you did that before and had the two households. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Wait. First money group? You have ANOTHER money group

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

First, I don't want to assume why you'd be switching to two households. I hope it's for an only-happy reason, but I'm afraid it's for a difficult reason. 

Don't take out a 401K loan. You know that's a bad plan. 

[CCL]

But don't you think a loan is still better than a withdrawal?

[Miss Tequila]

Like the others, I hope there is only good news in your household

I just withdrew $100k from my 401k plan under the CARES act. I did it for two reasons: A) I believe our taxes have to go up and I believe substantially. Especially if the dens take the senate and we start the handouts. I prefer to invest it in real estate, which has favorable tax treatment. B:). I thought the stock market was overvalued before the pandemic hits, now I think it’s crazy.

[TheHaitian]

Dec 13, 2020 22:12:01 GMT -5 CCL said:

Aren't you in a high tax bracket? That would make me hesitate to choose C. I like B better. I'm one of those people who hates to withdraw my money. I also feel like improved cash flow is pretty much always a good thing.

I hope you are contemplating this due to something positive coming into your life, a job promotion, maybe? I remember when you did that before and had the two households. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Yes and no... gross income wise yes, but after all deductions and everything else put in effective tax rate is pretty meh. But maybe it is a good question to shoot to my tax accountant since I already got 23k in bonus this year, how much an extra ~50k would change the landscape.

[TheHaitian]

Dec 13, 2020 22:54:06 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

First, I don't want to assume why you'd be switching to two households. I hope it's for an only-happy reason, but I'm afraid it's for a difficult reason. 

Don't take out a 401K loan. You know that's a bad plan. 

So you are option C?

[TheHaitian]

Dec 13, 2020 23:09:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Like the others, I hope there is only good news in your household

I just withdrew $100k from my 401k plan under the CARES act. I did it for two reasons: A) I believe our taxes have to go up and I believe substantially. Especially if the dens take the senate and we start the handouts. I prefer to invest it in real estate, which has favorable tax treatment. B:). I thought the stock market was overvalued before the pandemic hits, now I think it’s crazy.

Ok good reasoning... and how will an extra 100k effect your taxes?

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 13, 2020 23:26:35 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Dec 13, 2020 23:09:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Like the others, I hope there is only good news in your household

I just withdrew $100k from my 401k plan under the CARES act. I did it for two reasons: A) I believe our taxes have to go up and I believe substantially. Especially if the dens take the senate and we start the handouts. I prefer to invest it in real estate, which has favorable tax treatment. B:). I thought the stock market was overvalued before the pandemic hits, now I think it’s crazy.

Ok good reasoning... and how will an extra 100k effect your taxes?

Don’t forget that I retired in august so I do not have a full years salary. I expect us to top out in the 24% category. I do not believe the rates can stay that low. I am sitting in cash in my 401k plan and it is doing be zero good. So for me this is the right choice. I would have liquidated more but that pushes us up in tax bracket plus paying a penalty so it made zero sense.

[lurkyloo]

I am so confused.  Are you getting divorced or joining the CIA?

Personally I’d probably go with C.  Phil would be so disappointed in me.  

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 13, 2020 23:26:35 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Dec 13, 2020 23:09:40 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Like the others, I hope there is only good news in your household

I just withdrew $100k from my 401k plan under the CARES act. I did it for two reasons: A) I believe our taxes have to go up and I believe substantially. Especially if the dens take the senate and we start the handouts. I prefer to invest it in real estate, which has favorable tax treatment. B:). I thought the stock market was overvalued before the pandemic hits, now I think it’s crazy.

Ok good reasoning... and how will an extra 100k effect your taxes?

Forgot to add that under CARES you have a few years to put the money back in (forget if it is 3 or 5 years). You can then amend your return and get your taxes back. That was the discussion I had with Vanguard when I withdrew my money. I don’t imagine I would go that route so I didn’t do any research of my own.

[TheHaitian]

Ok no need for a comment on it because it is what it is and nothing I can do to change it and knew it was coming. My wife got into her grad school in their DrPH program. She actually should have been moved already (in the fall) but due to Covid they had allowed her to take classes online this semester and next I believe.

In the meantime she was going to try again to get into GW DrPH program or Maryland University PhD program since I was not too found of moving once again. Moving a lot when it was just the two of us was fun and cool, with my daughter now not really crazy about it and second: all our past moves were covered by jobs; we never had to move on our dimes except for the first time we moved to Albany in 2008 and it was cheap then. I know moving cost $$$...

It seems with everything going on (juggling classes, work and Carlie schooling) she missed the deadline to apply to GW and has expressed she is not too crazy about going to the PhD program because it is longer va DrPH. And expressed how even if she got into GW she was not sure she would have taken it, it is 70k/year (that program) vs 40k/year Albany and she feels she has a good chance getting her future employer to cover part of it.

And yes I mentioned we had a kid, it is different now. She doesn’t think so and feels she has moved countless times for my career it is only fair we move for hers. She mentioned how my cousin when he was doing his residency in one state and his wife was in another doing her residency with their child and they made it work. Great but that does not mean it is an ideal situation (when I said I am not crazy about moving to Albany, job prospect... my old employer is out of the question, etc).

So yes for the past year it has all been brought up; the stress on the family, my daughter, her mother even said she would not move with her if she did it, the possibility of separation, divorce etc. she has informed me she plans on moving forward with it if come next year she does not get into any school but Albany, she has always wanted to get her DrPh and been ~10 years since she got her Masters.

When push come to shove she has expressed how she really does not like DC, she wants a bigger house, she wants a yard for our daughter, etc etc. so really I concluded that yes it is the DrPH (she always wanted it) and the idea or perception of the life she should be living. Yes we live in a 630k townhome but it does not look like it is worth 630k (unless you live in DC and know DC market) ... you know what I mean. And I have accepted to my wife... perception is everything and she wants the outside world to perceive her life is perfect and no ones thinks your life is perfect when you are slumming it in DC.

I have accepted that and it is my reality. I have also accepted that I am 35, I am tired and exhausted of bending backwards to make someone else happy and at the risk of my marriage I am going to put my well being, financial, physical and mental first. So we are no longer arguing about it, discussing it and I wish her all the best with her future endeavors. May she take life by the balls and chase her dream in Albany.

- But I will not be moving unless I find suitable employment (one major employer in my field is already a no no)
- she will need to cover all her expenses in Albany under her income because if I am covering our DC mortgage , I cannot contribute to her Albany expenses.
- eventually we will need to decide to sell or keep, most likely sell since I am not that interested in being a landlord but she wants to keep it and rent it out.
- and if my business plan in DC pans out (one chance in a million); at the end of her program she will need to decide what she wants to do because at that point re-location would not be possible.

I love my wife and I love my daughter, I want my marriage to work. But I think being 35 and after 17 years together and 12 married, I am more realistic and practical vs being a dreamer. I will fully support my wife and all her endeavors but I am realistic; my wife is all about perfection, she is afraid to take risks, she hates being wrong, only will take a job if she is 100% sure she can do it in her sleep and shy away from challenges. Will she earn a good living? Yes, she does already. But my wife wrongly believe like our parents believe that more education will bring more career success. It may bring a promotion or two, but you also have to account for “personality” and drive and ambition. So maybe I am not as Eager to move because I do not see the DrPH translating into that much or a bump in salary or career elevation as she does and I may be wrong, I have been wrong before, many times actually. So I am not to in a rush to risk it all and move to Albany for it.
———> more so when I know part of the allure of Albany is how much further our “income” or buying power would take us there vs DC. The houses with the yards we could buy vs the cramp townhome. Nothing wrong with that but as the person that had to shovel the snow, walk the dog when it is freezing outside; I will take no snow and cramp townhouse vs Albany 6-12 inches of snow. I hate the snow...

[TheHaitian]

And the one in a million chances plan is I am going to file an application to become an “operator” for Chik-fil-A. It is very hard to get into, harder than Harvard based on the amount of applications they get and the amount of people they accept but willing to give it a shot. May not work, may work but they run a background check, and credit check, debt and how you manage your money is considered.

Also have 2 other things I am considering for 2021 but that is my Top one for now. If I am going to slave and work crazy hours in a business, I may as well get a nice chunk of the profits I figure.

[TheHaitian]

Dec 13, 2020 23:49:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 13, 2020 23:26:35 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok good reasoning... and how will an extra 100k effect your taxes?

Forgot to add that under CARES you have a few years to put the money back in (forget if it is 3 or 5 years). You can then amend your return and get your taxes back. That was the discussion I had with Vanguard when I withdrew my money. I don’t imagine I would go that route so I didn’t do any research of my own.

WTF!!! How did I miss that?

Ok going to look into it and if that is true than that settles it for me. C is the clear winner ...

THANK YOU!!!!

[TheHaitian]

Dec 13, 2020 23:49:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 13, 2020 23:26:35 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok good reasoning... and how will an extra 100k effect your taxes?

Forgot to add that under CARES you have a few years to put the money back in (forget if it is 3 or 5 years). You can then amend your return and get your taxes back. That was the discussion I had with Vanguard when I withdrew my money. I don’t imagine I would go that route so I didn’t do any research of my own.

You are awesome... a quick google search and there it is :

www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/advisor/retirement/cares-act-retirement-account-rules-covid-19/%3famp

The CARES act gives you extraordinary flexibility to manage the resulting tax liability. You can choose to spread the taxes owed over three years, or pay it all in 2020 if your income (and thus your tax rate) is much lower this year.

Alternatively, the CARES Act gives you up to three years to redeposit the withdrawn money into a retirement account — normally you’d have only 60 days. If you restore the retirement funds within three years, you won’t owe tax until you take distributions in retirement. You may, however, have to file an amended tax return to get back any tax you paid before redepositing the funds into retirement savings.

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 14, 2020 0:06:58 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Dec 13, 2020 23:49:59 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Forgot to add that under CARES you have a few years to put the money back in (forget if it is 3 or 5 years). You can then amend your return and get your taxes back. That was the discussion I had with Vanguard when I withdrew my money. I don’t imagine I would go that route so I didn’t do any research of my own.

WTF!!! How did I miss that?

Ok going to look into it and if that is true than that settles it for me. C is the clear winner ...

THANK YOU!!!!

Like I said, I don’t plan on putting the money back in so I did zero research. Vanguard is usually pretty good so I imagine it’s true. I don’t like giving tax advice when I didn’t do the research

Good luck!!

[CCL]

That article you listed says you have to meet the Covid-related requirements. IIRC, Miss Tequila was in the hospital for a while with Covid so she qualifies. Do any of those apply to you? It also says it's only valid for 2020. You don't have much time left to get moving on it.

[TheHaitian]

Dec 14, 2020 0:35:32 GMT -5 CCL said:

That article you listed says you have to meet the Covid-related requirements. IIRC, Miss Tequila was in the hospital for a while with Covid so she qualifies. Do any of those apply to you? It also says it's only valid for 2020. You don't have much time left to get moving on it.

Having a spouse or dependent diagnosed with COVID-19 [brother]

Closing or reducing hours of a business owned or operated by an individual or their spouse due to COVID-19 [my side business]

And the company we use (fidelity) already adopted the new rules and facilitate it (personally asked and other associates have made withdrawal since cares act came out).

One email to my accountant and hopefully if all looks good I file it out online and gets processed. Will call again tomorrow to be 100% sure...

[Miss Tequila]

Dec 14, 2020 0:35:32 GMT -5 CCL said:

That article you listed says you have to meet the Covid-related requirements. IIRC, Miss Tequila was in the hospital for a while with Covid so she qualifies. Do any of those apply to you? It also says it's only valid for 2020. You don't have much time left to get moving on it.

www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-20-50.pdf

It does say in here if you are financially impacted due to furlough, you qualify. It then goes on to say if anyone in your household (later defined as anyone sharing principal residence) is impacted, you qualify (brother).

It’s late and I’m quickly reading but that’s what I see.

ETA: I meant quarantine, not furlough. I don’t know if Carl got paid when he was under quarantine. A lot of the bigger employers were not paying

[minnesotapaintlady]

My company is being very strict with the federal rules for withdrawals and aren't allowing people to just take money out.


Q3. Am I a qualified individual for purposes of section 2202 of the CARES Act?
A3. You are a qualified individual if –

You are diagnosed with the virus SARS-CoV-2 or with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by a test approved by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention;

Your spouse or dependent is diagnosed with SARS-CoV-2 or with COVID-19 by a test approved by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention;

You experience adverse financial consequences as a result of being quarantined, being furloughed or laid off, or having work hours reduced due to SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19;

You experience adverse financial consequences as a result of being unable to work due to lack of child care due to SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19; or
You experience adverse financial consequences as a result of closing or reducing hours of a business that you own or operate due to SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19.

[TheHaitian]

Dec 14, 2020 0:48:08 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Dec 14, 2020 0:35:32 GMT -5 CCL said:

That article you listed says you have to meet the Covid-related requirements. IIRC, Miss Tequila was in the hospital for a while with Covid so she qualifies. Do any of those apply to you? It also says it's only valid for 2020. You don't have much time left to get moving on it.

www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-20-50.pdf

It does say in here if you are financially impacted due to furlough, you qualify. It then goes on to say if anyone in your household (later defined as anyone sharing principal residence) is impacted, you qualify (brother).

It’s late and I’m quickly reading but that’s what I see.

ETA: I meant quarantine, not furlough. I don’t know if Carl got paid when he was under quarantine. A lot of the bigger employers were not paying

Thank you again... just did some research and my plans does allow for it up to 100k.

Also have the corona distribution repayment form :

www.troweprice.com/document-distribution/rps/edms/client-communications/plan-forms/999999crp3.pdf

Repayment: You may repay all or part of your distribution amount to any retirement plan or IRA that will accept recontributions within three years after distribution has been received. If you do not repay, you may include your coronavirus-related distribution in your gross income ratably over three years.

So if my plan is to repay (possibly) I can elect not to pay the taxes this year or next till I repay or pay the taxes on the amount taken out.

Ok just started the process online and it seems I don’t have to call or contact anyone, just process it online. Going to sleep on it and possibly will make my move by the end of this week.

I like this option because directly it allows for more cash flow right now and 2 it allows for what I like most with option B: repayment.

So if I get a job in Albany and we sell this house, I can just take the money out of the sale from the house and pay it back. Even if I don’t get a job I may decide to sell instead of getting roommates and move into a one bedroom or studio fully furnished till we decide what is final move.

Good thing I posted!

[tallguy]

So if my plan is to repay (possibly) I can elect not to pay the taxes this year or next till I repay or pay the taxes on the amount taken out.

You should double-check that.  It appears that you would have to claim the proceeds on your taxes but you can spread it out over three years.  If you choose to repay, you can file an amended return for any relevant years and receive the taxes back.  For example, if you were to take the full $100,000 and choose the three-year option, you would report one-third of that amount on your 2020 taxes.  You would also include one-third on your 2021 taxes, and the final third on your 2022 taxes.  If you were to repay any part of that during one of those years, you would be able to not report that part of the distribution for that year.  If you were to repay in a later year, you would have to file an amended return for the earlier year to get those taxes back.   

[CCL]

I knew Carl's brother had Covid, but was thinking he wouldn't count as a "dependent". I assume they are meaning a dependent you can claim on your tax returns. Didn't think that he would meet that criteria. Didn't know he had a business.

I haven't looked at any of this closely.

[CCL]

Dec 14, 2020 2:55:05 GMT -5 tallguy said:

So if my plan is to repay (possibly) I can elect not to pay the taxes this year or next till I repay or pay the taxes on the amount taken out.

You should double-check that.  It appears that you would have to claim the proceeds on your taxes but you can spread it out over three years.  If you choose to repay, you can file an amended return for any relevant years and receive the taxes back.  For example, if you were to take the full $100,000 and choose the three-year option, you would report one-third of that amount on your 2020 taxes.  You would also include one-third on your 2021 taxes, and the final third on your 2022 taxes.  If you were to repay any part of that during one of those years, you would be able to not report that part of the distribution for that year.  If you were to repay in a later year, you would have to file an amended return for the earlier year to get those taxes back.   

If that's the case, a lot of folks might be in trouble. Someone withdrawing $100k will owe a lot of extra taxes for this year. If they have to use the proceeds to cover the taxes there would be even less to live off of or to bolster their business.

If my income was drastically reduced, I would consider making a withdrawal up to the amount that would put me in a higher tax bracket just to withdraw at a lower rate. We are retired, though, so in a completely different situation. Most people with reduced income would need the money to live off of.

[jeffreymo]

Dec 13, 2020 23:24:46 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Dec 13, 2020 22:12:01 GMT -5 CCL said:

Aren't you in a high tax bracket? That would make me hesitate to choose C. I like B better. I'm one of those people who hates to withdraw my money. I also feel like improved cash flow is pretty much always a good thing.

I hope you are contemplating this due to something positive coming into your life, a job promotion, maybe? I remember when you did that before and had the two households. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Yes and no... gross income wise yes, but after all deductions and everything else put in effective tax rate is pretty meh. But maybe it is a good question to shoot to my tax accountant since I already got 23k in bonus this year, how much an extra ~50k would change the landscape.

If you file MFJ and your taxable income is between 171k and 326k you’ll pay 24% in taxes. Below that lower threshold 22% and above that upper threshold 32%.

Effective rate is a statistic. Your marginal rate is what determines what each additional dollar is taxed at.

[taz157]

Dec 14, 2020 7:45:40 GMT -5 CCL said:

I knew Carl's brother had Covid, but was thinking he wouldn't count as a "dependent". I assume they are meaning a dependent you can claim on your tax returns. Didn't think that he would meet that criteria.

Yeah that! I didn’t think your brother was your dependent tax-wise and that’s what I would think it would mean.

[wvugurl26]

I assume his brother would count as a dependent. He cannot legally work at this time. Carl had to sign to accept financial responsibility for him.

I would go for option C and get it over with.

[swamp]

I like Albany way more than DC, and it's not that cold there.   

Go to Albany!

[giramomma]

I don't know that I would pick any of them, without consulting a lawyer, first.