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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 12:28:44 GMT -5
You change your stories, or just giving partial stories at times. I was merely pointing out the difference in travelers. What makes you think I was talking about you ? It really fits on this thread. People even lie to themselves. Everyone lies. As an aside, do you think you received the same treatment as someone living there, vs a general perception of a large foreign country ? If you’d been here longer than a few months, you wo7ld know that I have NOT. “changed my story” one bit. I've been here since the inception of this forum, when MSN market talk shut down operations and most came here. First as jma23, then as Diogenes23, then as x=, now back to the original jma23. PM Laura if you don't believe me. (moon/laura) Anyway...You didn't always give a complete background every time you mentioned traveling. Stories also change because memories are not perfect. Everyone lies. Everyone. Even if it's not done intentionally, it's still a lie.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 17, 2019 13:57:59 GMT -5
Everyone lies. Everyone. Even if it's not done intentionally, it's still a lie. my definition of lie requires intentionality. that is why I never called Bush a liar for his WMD falsehoods. it is possible that he was fooled by the BS, and repeated it.
if you are the progenitor of the falsehood, however, it is difficult to make that claim.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 17, 2019 14:50:57 GMT -5
Does anyone know where the "lie counter" is at at the moment? dt passed 10k late April and he has added some (shall we say) misstatements since then. I just don't know how many...
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Jun 17, 2019 19:21:01 GMT -5
Does anyone know where the "lie counter" is at at the moment? dt passed 10k late April and he has added some (shall we say) misstatements since then. I just don't know how many... Definitely over 10,000...I thought I saw a figure of about 10,666...give or take a few somewhere just the other day...don't think it's hit 11,000 yet..[sigh...just give it time...he'll be doing a lot of rallies soon if the municipalities don't mind being stiffed the thousands not paid for local security....Seems about $800,000 is owed from 2016 to now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2019 12:08:18 GMT -5
Everyone lies. Everyone. Even if it's not done intentionally, it's still a lie. my definition of lie requires intentionality. that is why I never called Bush a liar for his WMD falsehoods. it is possible that he was fooled by the BS, and repeated it.
if you are the progenitor of the falsehood, however, it is difficult to make that claim.
For me, a lie is a false statement, an untruth. "Intentional" just adds a condition to a false statement. It's still a false statement however, conditions or not. Just my take on it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 18, 2019 12:27:10 GMT -5
Christ on a cracker. His cult believes everything he says. a 6th grader should know more than Trump does. My 5th grader could pound him in a civics quiz.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2019 12:58:25 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2019 13:12:51 GMT -5
my definition of lie requires intentionality. that is why I never called Bush a liar for his WMD falsehoods. it is possible that he was fooled by the BS, and repeated it.
if you are the progenitor of the falsehood, however, it is difficult to make that claim.
For me, a lie is a false statement, an untruth. "Intentional" just adds a condition to a false statement. It's still a false statement however, conditions or not. Just my take on it. yeah, I have heard that before.
but if you tell a lie thinking it is the truth, that to me sounds like IGNORANCE. that is it's own sort of sin. particularly for a president. but it is quite different than, say, lying about your net worth to impress people or to obtain loans from banks. that is both fraudulent and self serving. the prior sort of "lie" need not be self serving at all. in fact, it may be detrimental to the teller.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2019 15:05:24 GMT -5
Yeah, Mencken was a complicated SOB, but I am not a fan.
....but you have to admit, that quote was spot on!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 18, 2019 16:32:17 GMT -5
my definition of lie requires intentionality. that is why I never called Bush a liar for his WMD falsehoods. it is possible that he was fooled by the BS, and repeated it.
if you are the progenitor of the falsehood, however, it is difficult to make that claim.
For me, a lie is a false statement, an untruth. "Intentional" just adds a condition to a false statement. It's still a false statement however, conditions or not. Just my take on it. Pretty sure that would be considered a non-standard definition of the term. "Lie" is generally considered to be an intentional statement or act, made with the intent to deceive. A false statement is simply that, false. It could be intentional or not, the result of error or not. The only "condition" is that it not be factually true. And what of the case when conditions change? A statement can be true when uttered, and become false later. That does not make the speaker honest at first and a liar later.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 18, 2019 21:35:23 GMT -5
Yeah, Mencken was a complicated SOB, but I am not a fan.
....but you have to admit, that quote was spot on! Sometimes the truth hurts. I am not fond of the depiction of "the people". I prefer the Jeffersonian vision which I admit is at least a bit fantastical. But are most of us really narcissistic morons? no. most of us are good people. well meaning. kind to animals. nice with kids.
and some of us are contemptible beasts. but they are a minority.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Jun 18, 2019 22:28:24 GMT -5
Yeah, Mencken was a complicated SOB, but I am not a fan. Not familier with the man at all Weltz, but this statement seems to have hit the current situation in DC and the oval office right on and at a 100%...will have to google Mr. Mencken...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2019 22:31:48 GMT -5
Yeah, Mencken was a complicated SOB, but I am not a fan.
....but you have to admit, that quote was spot on! Sometimes the truth hurts. I am not fond of the depiction of "the people". I prefer the Jeffersonian vision which I admit is at least a bit fantastical. But are most of us really narcissistic morons? He said the White House will be occupied by a narcissistic moron, and so it has come to pass......
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 19, 2019 7:21:42 GMT -5
He said the White House will be occupied by a narcissistic moron, and so it has come to pass...... Which was prefaced by- "...… the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people". Mencken was not a believer in the wisdom of the common person (putting it politely!) Well, maybe he thought the individual common person was fine, but whenever you gather a bunch of fine common people together in a group to listen to a narcissistic moron, things can go to shit quickly.
For examples - every lynching that ever happened, the Red Scare (McCarthyism), and Donald Trump, leading his flock in chants of 'lock her up' and 'drain the swamp.'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2019 11:12:16 GMT -5
For me, a lie is a false statement, an untruth. "Intentional" just adds a condition to a false statement. It's still a false statement however, conditions or not. Just my take on it. Pretty sure that would be considered a non-standard definition of the term. "Lie" is generally considered to be an intentional statement or act, made with the intent to deceive. A false statement is simply that, false. It could be intentional or not, the result of error or not. The only "condition" is that it not be factually true. And what of the case when conditions change? A statement can be true when uttered, and become false later. That does not make the speaker honest at first and a liar later. Our backgrounds are different, that's all. There is no standard definition. Quote; Traditional Definition of Lying . There is no universally accepted definition of lying to others. The dictionary definition of lying is “to make a false statement with the intention to deceive” (OED 1989) but there are numerous problems with this definition. It is both too narrow, since it requires falsity, and too broad, since it allows for lying about something other than what is being stated, and lying to someone who is believed to be listening in but who is not being addressed.
Quote; Statement Condition . According to the statement condition, lying requires that a person make a statement.plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/That's why I go with a lie being an untruth, false statement, any synonym as such. Anything else is an added/limiting condition.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 19, 2019 12:17:46 GMT -5
And now for a drive by posting I saw somewhere else that at one point was relevant to this thread and I'm hoping it still is: PS it's a copy/paste so I'm hoping the person correctly quoted
“To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morally while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forger it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself--that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word "doublethink" involved the use of doublethink."
-1984, George Orwell
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 19, 2019 13:01:08 GMT -5
He said the White House will be occupied by a narcissistic moron, and so it has come to pass...... Which was prefaced by- "...… the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people". Mencken was not a believer in the wisdom of the common person (putting it politely!) since 11/16, I get it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 19, 2019 13:04:14 GMT -5
Pretty sure that would be considered a non-standard definition of the term. "Lie" is generally considered to be an intentional statement or act, made with the intent to deceive. A false statement is simply that, false. It could be intentional or not, the result of error or not. The only "condition" is that it not be factually true. And what of the case when conditions change? A statement can be true when uttered, and become false later. That does not make the speaker honest at first and a liar later. Our backgrounds are different, that's all. There is no standard definition. Quote; Traditional Definition of Lying . There is no universally accepted definition of lying to others. The dictionary definition of lying is “to make a false statement with the intention to deceive” (OED 1989) I can go with that. if you don't know it is FALSE, you can't INTEND to DECIVE.
simply put, if the "liar" thinks he is telling the truth, he is not actually lying.
I call this latter thing "rumormongering", and the teller "ignorant of the facts", but not a liar.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 19, 2019 13:44:50 GMT -5
"Mencken was not a believer in the wisdom of the common person (putting it politely!)"
I'm watching Trump in Orlando lie through his teeth to his supporters, while they cheer and swoon. His supporters are as common as they come, and the wisdom and critical thinking are clearly non-existent. They lap up every lie as gospel, and punctuate it with chants of "Lock her up!"
(I'm supposed to believe in the "wisdom of the common people"? That ship had sailed in 2016.)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 19, 2019 13:51:15 GMT -5
"Mencken was not a believer in the wisdom of the common person (putting it politely!)"I'm watching Trump in Orlando lie through his teeth to his supporters, while they cheer and swoon. His supporters are as common as they come, and the wisdom and critical thinking are clearly non-existent. They lap up every lie as gospel, and punctuate it with chants of "Lock her up!" (I'm supposed to believe in the "wisdom of the common people"? That ship had sailed in 2016.) I'm assuming they still want to lock up Hilary Clinton? Do they realize she is not president, she is no longer a Senator, and no longer Secretary of State? She has absolutely no governmental power at all. It's about time they pick a new villain. Perhaps Nancy Pelosi?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 19, 2019 13:56:47 GMT -5
Yes, you bet they do! Trump keeps invoking her in his speeches. If it worked the first time...........
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 19, 2019 14:50:36 GMT -5
Yes, you bet they do! Trump keeps invoking her in his speeches. If it worked the first time........... To any of those that read the Mueller report, what did Hillary and the Democrats do that was so treasonous?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 20, 2019 14:08:41 GMT -5
"Mencken was not a believer in the wisdom of the common person (putting it politely!)"I'm watching Trump in Orlando lie through his teeth to his supporters, while they cheer and swoon. His supporters are as common as they come, and the wisdom and critical thinking are clearly non-existent. They lap up every lie as gospel, and punctuate it with chants of "Lock her up!" (I'm supposed to believe in the "wisdom of the common people"? That ship had sailed in 2016.) I'm assuming they still want to lock up Hilary Clinton? Do they realize she is not president, she is no longer a Senator, and no longer Secretary of State? She has absolutely no governmental power at all. It's about time they pick a new villain. Perhaps Nancy Pelosi? Trump is living in 2016. He's claiming Hillary "acid-washed" her emails. There's no such thing. This is pretty funny. The speech President Donald Trump delivered to launch his 2020 reelection campaign sure seemed a lot like the ones he made in 2016. Trump goaded his audience into booing the media almost immediately and spent a great deal of time attacking Hillary Clinton, prompting numerous “lock her up!” chants — and even went as far as to suggest that Attorney General William Barr may still prosecute her for her emails. “If you want to know how the system is rigged, just compared how they came after us for three years with everything they had compared to the free pass they gave to Hillary and her aides after they set an illegal server, destroyed evidence, deleted and acid-washed 33,000 emails, exposed classified information, and turned the State Department into a pay-for-play cash machine,” Trump said at one point. “33,000 emails deleted!” He went on to attack Clinton for purportedly defying subpoenas — the same thing his administration is currently doing. www.vox.com/2019/6/18/18684547/trump-reelection-speech-orlando-hillary-clinton-lock-her-up
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on Jun 20, 2019 14:22:16 GMT -5
I'm assuming they still want to lock up Hilary Clinton? Do they realize she is not president, she is no longer a Senator, and no longer Secretary of State? She has absolutely no governmental power at all. It's about time they pick a new villain. Perhaps Nancy Pelosi? Trump is living in 2016. He's claiming Hillary "acid-washed" her emails. There's no such thing. This is pretty funny. The speech President Donald Trump delivered to launch his 2020 reelection campaign sure seemed a lot like the ones he made in 2016. Trump goaded his audience into booing the media almost immediately and spent a great deal of time attacking Hillary Clinton, prompting numerous “lock her up!” chants — and even went as far as to suggest that Attorney General William Barr may still prosecute her for her emails. “If you want to know how the system is rigged, just compared how they came after us for three years with everything they had compared to the free pass they gave to Hillary and her aides after they set an illegal server, destroyed evidence, deleted and acid-washed 33,000 emails, exposed classified information, and turned the State Department into a pay-for-play cash machine,” Trump said at one point. “33,000 emails deleted!” He went on to attack Clinton for purportedly defying subpoenas — the same thing his administration is currently doing. www.vox.com/2019/6/18/18684547/trump-reelection-speech-orlando-hillary-clinton-lock-her-upAnyone who waited in long lines for hours to listen to the OLD BS, really needs to think about having their own minds examined...by a professional. I didn't watch it, I have only read about it where it's been posted on boards I frequent...I'm tired of hearing one lie after another and attributing everything he does to all other people too.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 20, 2019 17:35:58 GMT -5
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