Opti
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Post by Opti on May 18, 2019 14:56:11 GMT -5
I just read an editorial by a woman who said she was pregnant at 12 from rape/incest. Apparently her Dad was high up in the Police Department and either was the Rapist or was looking the other way. She said it was after 6 weeks when she took the pregnancy test, and she points out that if anyone that age is pregnant it is definitely rape/incest as someone that age can not legally give consent.
I think the Mother's life should take precedent. If he life is at risk, it should be up to her if she wants to abort or continue. I am Pro-Choice all the way though, but that is the big think that formed my opinion.
Why would we want a woman to risk her life carrying a pregnancy that is incompatible with life to full term? If she has other children, who will be responsible for their emotional and physical well being until they are 18? I've never figured out making abortion illegal doesn't fall under cruel and unusual punishment clause. Maternal mortality is high in the US and is getting higher. I don't see how the government can force a possible death sentence on you just for having sex. 23.8 deaths per 100k is a high rate of a death sentence for having done nothing illegal. And that doesn't included the non lethal disabilities possible. Agreed. It basically makes it OK to take advantage of female minors and then pretend life is sacred by treating the pregnant teen as trash and pretending the infant will be unblemished and perfect. MO.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 18, 2019 15:02:05 GMT -5
"this bill has the opportunity to save the lives of millions of unborn children"My children are thankful for abortion...most likely wouldn't be walking this earth if their mother would have been forced to have a baby (years before I ever met her). I have theological issues with that old saw Sparty quoted. I believe souls are recycled, so not getting a particular body at a particular time might be annoying, but not a life on earth never issue. I've been watching the TV Series Six Feet Under. One episode in season two had an interesting take on it, when Nate "met" all his unborn children at the ages they might have been. The first one was explicitly OK with not being born. Also, as you note, people's lives are going to take a different path if any woman who happens to get pregnant is forced by law and society to have it. Some will die, and others won't have the children and the prosperity they would have had, had they been allowed to wait until they could afford the children ...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 18, 2019 15:04:11 GMT -5
Sweet home talibama It's not an oppressive regime if they wear a cross Naw, I think maybe that is a sign. I have nothing against crosses, except for the fact they were created to kill people...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 18, 2019 15:34:07 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 18, 2019 16:36:38 GMT -5
Makes sense to me.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on May 18, 2019 17:05:34 GMT -5
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steff
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Post by steff on May 18, 2019 18:27:14 GMT -5
I guess some of these men seem to forget that in the 1970's a woman couldn't get a bank account without her husband or father signing for her. She couldn't get a credit card on her own. Couldn't rent an apartment without a man's signature. couldn't rent a car.
Until RECENT history, women weren't allowed to do the basics to support herself ON HER OWN. She was REQUIRED to have a man "approve" her financial decisions.
So don't act like it's so far fetched that it couldn't possibly happen.
I didn't live in Ga. in the 70's...not until the 80's, but I've done all that you stated above since the early 60's all by myself in Ill., Ca. & Fl. I had my own credit card in 1964...in my name & no one signed cause I was on my own in Ca. with no close relatives around...rented several apts. & had a bank acct on my own starting in the late 50's. Boy, the southern women have REALLY been beaten down & controlled....worse than I realized. In the early 70's (72/73), in California, my mom tried to leave my dad. She couldn't rent a hotel room, she couldn't open a bank account, she couldn't rent a car & she couldn't rent an apartment. Her dad had to come out to California & bring her home. She couldn't rent an apartment in her name in Houston, Texas at that time. My grampa had to rent the apartment in his name. He eventually rented the house next door to his & my gramma for my mom & my aunt to share (along with 2 small kids).
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on May 18, 2019 21:09:55 GMT -5
I didn't live in Ga. in the 70's...not until the 80's, but I've done all that you stated above since the early 60's all by myself in Ill., Ca. & Fl. I had my own credit card in 1964...in my name & no one signed cause I was on my own in Ca. with no close relatives around...rented several apts. & had a bank acct on my own starting in the late 50's. Boy, the southern women have REALLY been beaten down & controlled....worse than I realized. In the early 70's (72/73), in California, my mom tried to leave my dad. She couldn't rent a hotel room, she couldn't open a bank account, she couldn't rent a car & she couldn't rent an apartment. Her dad had to come out to California & bring her home. She couldn't rent an apartment in her name in Houston, Texas at that time. My grampa had to rent the apartment in his name. He eventually rented the house next door to his & my gramma for my mom & my aunt to share (along with 2 small kids). I arrived in Ca. in late Jan. or early Feb. of 1964. I lived with my brother & his wife for one month...then I got my own apt. No one had to sign for me, I rented it on my own. I had already opened my own checking account...again on my own with no one else signing anything. I got my first credit card about then too, it had a limit of $125...which was quite a bit at that time. I was in the Santa Ana area & later moved to Hawthorne...close to LA. I've never had a problem with a motel/hotel room or anything else. I traveled back to Ill. by myself in 1967 in my Mustang pulling a trailer. I got motel rooms all along the way. I never had any problems. No one questioned me or indicated anything.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 18, 2019 21:13:47 GMT -5
Are you both of the same race and socioeconomic background?
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on May 18, 2019 21:35:56 GMT -5
I am white female...graduated high school...some college & trade school. Did trade school in Ca. after renting my own apt....didn't have to have anyone sign for that either. I was 19 at that time....so not even legal to drink yet...but of course, we all did anyway. After my trade school, I worked retail...Clark Drugs in Hawthorne. Before that I had worked at Tiny Tim Markets in Santa Ana near El Toro Marine base back then....son says El Toro isn't there any more.
When I got pregnant & wasn't about to marry the father since he hadn't been gamefully employed during the 2 yrs. I'd known him....that was when I packed up & went back to Ill. in 1967. But I did sue his hinny for medical expenses...got that but no child support. My attorney was Kenneth Marapese with his office in Hawthorne, Ca.
So you can see I wasn't rich by any means...just getting by paycheck to paycheck. Did save a bit as I went though.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 19, 2019 9:36:32 GMT -5
Maybe it was because one was married and one was single?
Maybe not having a banking history was the reason none of the other things happen.
Maybe we are missing a few pieces of information.
I don't think there were laws prohibiting women from doing those things, but there weren't any laws protecting their right to do them.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 19, 2019 12:14:45 GMT -5
My mom was in her early 20's, married to a Marine serving in Viet Nam, living on base w/ a small child, & working off base. I was not there when she tried to leave him, I had already been sent back to Texas with my grandparents. When my dad would come home between tours, he was violent. She had reported abuse to his superiors & nothing was done. He had beat her bloody the night she tried to leave & was denied a hotel room & a rental car. She had tried to open a bank account while he was in Viet Nam, after the beatings had been reported. It was pretty much known she was trying to find a way to leave. At the time, 29 Palms was a Marine base & a small town. She was one of only a handful of women living on base. Living on base entailed a handful of small houses in the desert. It was considered "on base" when it was technically not literally ON base.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 19, 2019 12:17:09 GMT -5
I'll also add that just because 1 woman didn't face the same issues doesn't mean they didn't exist. there are MANY women from that time who were denied bank accounts, rentals & other basic financial freedom.
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kadee79
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Post by kadee79 on May 19, 2019 14:06:10 GMT -5
The fact that she was married may have played into it...and also living in 29 Palms...and it's still a Marine base...I have a friend who lives there now. But being known in a small town like that and knowing that her DH might be violent to anyone who helped her could have been a factor.
I was in a much more populated area & there were many single women who had apts. & bank accts. without having a male family member to sign for them...urban more advanced than rural....same as today. I even bought a brand new Mustang late in '66...a '67 model without a co-signer. Not sure many can do that even now? I would have been 21 at that time.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 20, 2019 7:09:00 GMT -5
I've never figured out making abortion illegal doesn't fall under cruel and unusual punishment clause. Maternal mortality is high in the US and is getting higher. I don't see how the government can force a possible death sentence on you just for having sex. 23.8 deaths per 100k is a high rate of a death sentence for having done nothing illegal. And that doesn't included the non lethal disabilities possible. Agreed. It basically makes it OK to take advantage of female minors and then pretend life is sacred by treating the pregnant teen as trash and pretending the infant will be unblemished and perfect. MO. If I'm not mistaken Alabama has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the nation, and is 50th out of 50 states in the quality of their education.
There are so many practical things they could be doing to provide babies with the best start in life - assistance for moms to find jobs, good quality, inexpensive day care so they can work, subsidized health care, good schools, putting teeth in the rape laws - and they don't, which makes me believe Alabama isn't really interested in the poor dear babies, but in controlling women and punishing women who don't toe the good Christian line and stay celibate until married, and then stay married until they die.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 20, 2019 7:56:50 GMT -5
One weird thing I've noticed about this draconian laws that multiple states have enacted is that people from those states sometimes try to justify what happened by saying the law is unenforceable.
If a law is unenforceable, why pass it?
And how can you be sure there isn't some small town DA and Judge who decide they're actually going to enforce it?
Sounds like a weak apology to me.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 20, 2019 9:08:33 GMT -5
One weird thing I've noticed about this draconian laws that multiple states have enacted is that people from those states sometimes try to justify what happened by saying the law is unenforceable.
If a law is unenforceable, why pass it?
And how can you be sure there isn't some small town DA and Judge who decide they're actually going to enforce it?
Sounds like a weak apology to me. Many of the people on the legislature are attorneys. An attorney has an ethical obligation to follow the law, which includes not passing laws that are clearly unconstitutional. It's time for the committee on professional standards to step up.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 20, 2019 17:35:45 GMT -5
Apparently, none of these "decision-makers" have daughters. I wonder what happens when one of their own kids get raped. A sudden "vacation" to Europe, perhaps, so no one knows about their own abortions? Remember, bad things can happen to "good" people, too. I can tell you what happens. They quietly take tbeir daughters to a clinic (out of state) where they get safe, legal abortions. Because they are fucking hypocrites- like most so called “pro-lifers”. Poor women can go back to coat hangers and knitting needles like they did in my day
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 20, 2019 17:57:49 GMT -5
I didn't live in Ga. in the 70's...not until the 80's, but I've done all that you stated above since the early 60's all by myself in Ill., Ca. & Fl. I had my own credit card in 1964...in my name & no one signed cause I was on my own in Ca. with no close relatives around...rented several apts. & had a bank acct on my own starting in the late 50's. Boy, the southern women have REALLY been beaten down & controlled....worse than I realized. In the early 70's (72/73), in California, my mom tried to leave my dad. She couldn't rent a hotel room, she couldn't open a bank account, she couldn't rent a car & she couldn't rent an apartment. Her dad had to come out to California & bring her home. She couldn't rent an apartment in her name in Houston, Texas at that time. My grampa had to rent the apartment in his name. He eventually rented the house next door to his & my gramma for my mom & my aunt to share (along with 2 small kids). In the 80's I was living and working in Texas. I wanted to make a change in my investment plan on my 401K. At the bottom of the form (the company was in both Texas and Louisiana), it clearly stated that a married woman living in Louisiana would need her husband's signature to make any changes on HER 401K.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 20, 2019 19:31:13 GMT -5
I didn't live in Ga. in the 70's...not until the 80's, but I've done all that you stated above since the early 60's all by myself in Ill., Ca. & Fl. I had my own credit card in 1964...in my name & no one signed cause I was on my own in Ca. with no close relatives around...rented several apts. & had a bank acct on my own starting in the late 50's. Boy, the southern women have REALLY been beaten down & controlled....worse than I realized. In the early 70's (72/73), in California, my mom tried to leave my dad. She couldn't rent a hotel room, she couldn't open a bank account, she couldn't rent a car & she couldn't rent an apartment. Her dad had to come out to California & bring her home. She couldn't rent an apartment in her name in Houston, Texas at that time. My grampa had to rent the apartment in his name. He eventually rented the house next door to his & my gramma for my mom & my aunt to share (along with 2 small kids). Life sucked for women for a long time, and still does. I was 12/13 at that time and playing in a youth orchestra that it turns out was headed by an amazing musician. Before I joined a big telephone company in the mid 1980's, a woman, no matter her educational achievements, could not be hired in as MTS - Member of Technical Staff. Even with a PhD, the title would be STA, senior technical associate. Kadee and others are ahead of me, but it makes me think my micro generation of 1960-1964, can make a huge difference ... at least I hope so. Movie note: Currently watching Kate & Leopold, which I bought at the library fundraiser for $1.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 20, 2019 20:24:49 GMT -5
my mom, god rest her, married my dad in the 50's. they had three kids together before she couldn't stand his oppressive nature anymore and divorced him in 1967. after that, she had a reasonably independent life. she was lucky. she had a large inheritance, and a college degree in library science. she went as far in that field as a person could go, because it was socially acceptable for her to do so.
things have changed a great deal since then for women. mostly for the better. but some men, it seems clear to me, never were down with that project, and will do anything to bring women back to the moments preceding that struggle.
I pray that they fail. if not, we will slip down the funnel and become a "shithole country".
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 21, 2019 7:38:46 GMT -5
my mom, god rest her, married my dad in the 50's. they had three kids together before she couldn't stand his oppressive nature anymore and divorced him in 1968. after that, she had a reasonably independent life. she was lucky. she had a large inheritance, and a college degree in library science. she went as far in that field as a person could go, because it was socially acceptable for her to do so. things have changed a great deal since then for women. mostly for the better. but some men, it seems clear to me, never were down with that project, and will do anything to bring women back to the moments preceding that struggle. I pray that they fail. if not, we will slip down the funnel and become a "shithole country". As an aside, have you read The Library Book by Susan Orleans? As the son of a librarian I think you would like it.
Susan Orleans is a great writer. This is a nonfictional book about the history of the LA library, which has had several fierce (and trendsetting) women heading it, in it's time. She clearly loves libraries.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 21, 2019 10:16:29 GMT -5
my mom, god rest her, married my dad in the 50's. they had three kids together before she couldn't stand his oppressive nature anymore and divorced him in 1968. after that, she had a reasonably independent life. she was lucky. she had a large inheritance, and a college degree in library science. she went as far in that field as a person could go, because it was socially acceptable for her to do so. things have changed a great deal since then for women. mostly for the better. but some men, it seems clear to me, never were down with that project, and will do anything to bring women back to the moments preceding that struggle. I pray that they fail. if not, we will slip down the funnel and become a "shithole country". As an aside, have you read The Library Book by Susan Orleans? As the son of a librarian I think you would like it.
Susan Orleans is a great writer. This is a nonfictional book about the history of the LA library, which has had several fierce (and trendsetting) women heading it, in it's time. She clearly loves libraries.
happyhoix: would you mind sending me that title on IM? I will most certainly lose this thread.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 21, 2019 12:06:08 GMT -5
I am going to move the post, and the subsequent posts in reply. sorry, inferno rules.
if any of you need the password, please let me know and I can pm. I plan to reply my own thoughts to your question, as well.
-chiver mod
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 21, 2019 13:16:47 GMT -5
I am going to move the post, and the subsequent posts in reply. sorry, inferno rules. if any of you need the password, please let me know and I can pm. I plan to reply my own thoughts to your question, as well. -chiver mod you mean "the thread", chiver?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on May 21, 2019 13:41:29 GMT -5
I am going to move the post, and the subsequent posts in reply. sorry, inferno rules. if any of you need the password, please let me know and I can pm. I plan to reply my own thoughts to your question, as well. -chiver mod you mean "the thread", chiver? nope, just that tangent. the thread had been discussing the economic impact of boycotting, among other things that wouldn't earn it a ticket to the Inferno.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 21, 2019 14:39:55 GMT -5
In the early 70's (72/73), in California, my mom tried to leave my dad. She couldn't rent a hotel room, she couldn't open a bank account, she couldn't rent a car & she couldn't rent an apartment. Her dad had to come out to California & bring her home. She couldn't rent an apartment in her name in Houston, Texas at that time. My grampa had to rent the apartment in his name. He eventually rented the house next door to his & my gramma for my mom & my aunt to share (along with 2 small kids). In the 80's I was living and working in Texas. I wanted to make a change in my investment plan on my 401K. At the bottom of the form (the company was in both Texas and Louisiana), it clearly stated that a married woman living in Louisiana would need her husband's signature to make any changes on HER 401K. Does that have anything to do with co-ownership/marital property? I can change my investments, but I am pretty sure I can't change my beneficiary without my husband signing off on it - b/c marital property says it is 1/2 his. It is not discriminatory, b/c if he had a 401K, I would have the same right.
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nittanycheme
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Post by nittanycheme on May 21, 2019 14:58:41 GMT -5
I guess some of these men seem to forget that in the 1970's a woman couldn't get a bank account without her husband or father signing for her. She couldn't get a credit card on her own. Couldn't rent an apartment without a man's signature. couldn't rent a car.
Until RECENT history, women weren't allowed to do the basics to support herself ON HER OWN. She was REQUIRED to have a man "approve" her financial decisions.
So don't act like it's so far fetched that it couldn't possibly happen.
I didn't live in Ga. in the 70's...not until the 80's, but I've done all that you stated above since the early 60's all by myself in Ill., Ca. & Fl. I had my own credit card in 1964...in my name & no one signed cause I was on my own in Ca. with no close relatives around...rented several apts. & had a bank acct on my own starting in the late 50's. Boy, the southern women have REALLY been beaten down & controlled....worse than I realized. After my parents were divorced, and my mom moved to NYC, she had issues with getting credit cards. She actually saved copies of letters she had to send to credit card companies to escalate not getting approval for a BS reason. They claimed that they couldn't verify her employment and pay from her employer. At the time, she worked for a small company as the bookkeeper/default HR person. She said no one even tried to contact the company because the call would have been routed to her. That was in the late 70's/maybe early 80's. I'll need to dig out the letter. One of the creditor's was Sears, and she said that she was planning on getting a house and purchasing a bunch of appliances, and they wouldn't get any of her business. Something I still keep in mind as it really wasn't all that long ago.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 21, 2019 17:44:05 GMT -5
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Post by Tennesseer on May 21, 2019 19:17:37 GMT -5
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