mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 26, 2018 14:01:43 GMT -5
And the people of Bavaria would be looking for your head for giving away their bratwurst. I've been rather active about what's going on in Yemen for quite awhile now. I'd not be surprised I'm not the only one here who has. I still have quite a few friends in the Middle East. One of them was a good friend of Mr. Khashoggi. You don't count, because unlike 99.99X% of your countrymen and mine, you actually lived in Saudi Arabia. You'd be one of the 23 views the thread would actually get. What can I do except tell people about them and ask people to take them seriously? Part of this is ignoring distractions and media sideshows such as the Khashoggi affair. Appealing for perspective.
[/quote] Here are a few ways to help, Virgil. These organizations (and one determined senator) are doing good work in Yemen: www.hayratyardim.orgCARE OXFAM Save the Children US Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut (This senator has been a voice in the wilderness for quite some time now.)
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travelingdeb
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Post by travelingdeb on Nov 26, 2018 14:21:48 GMT -5
I would be more inclined to listen to a new point of view, if it seems that the person wasn't talking down to me as if I was a child. The way Vigil talks to people is extremely condescending, even if the post was of interest to me, I just glance over all of his. Treat people like an equal, and maybe people would listen to your point of view and you can have an interesting discussion.
My take on this was that Jamal was an actual resident of the US, maybe not a citizen, but residing here nevertheless. This should be big news here in America! Whenever an American gets in trouble oversees, legal wise, or even dies, it makes the news. Why should this be any different?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 26, 2018 14:23:35 GMT -5
Skateboards are much more dangerous than defective bicicyles! And I bet the skateboard factory is responsible for a lot of chemical pollution too! Lots of paint , thinners, and laquers. They probably import the defective roller wheels from China!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 26, 2018 14:28:19 GMT -5
I would be more inclined to listen to a new point of view, if it seems that the person wasn't talking down to me as if I was a child. The way Vigil talks to people is extremely condescending, even if the post was of interest to me, I just glance over all of his. Treat people like an equal, and maybe people would listen to your point of view and you can have an interesting discussion.
My take on this was that Jamal was an actual resident of the US, maybe not a citizen, but residing here nevertheless. This should be big news here in America! Whenever an American gets in trouble oversees, legal wise, or even dies, it makes the news. Why should this be any different? Oh, hi! I don't know you, but welcome to the board!
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 26, 2018 14:29:14 GMT -5
I would be more inclined to listen to a new point of view, if it seems that the person wasn't talking down to me as if I was a child. The way Vigil talks to people is extremely condescending, even if the post was of interest to me, I just glance over all of his. Treat people like an equal, and maybe people would listen to your point of view and you can have an interesting discussion.
unfortunately, that's not against CoC or ToS. too bad, though. like in life, you can't legislate against being an asshole. -chiver mod.
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 26, 2018 14:35:26 GMT -5
I would be more inclined to listen to a new point of view, if it seems that the person wasn't talking down to me as if I was a child. The way Vigil talks to people is extremely condescending, even if the post was of interest to me, I just glance over all of his. Treat people like an equal, and maybe people would listen to your point of view and you can have an interesting discussion.
My take on this was that Jamal was an actual resident of the US, maybe not a citizen, but residing here nevertheless. This should be big news here in America! Whenever an American gets in trouble oversees, legal wise, or even dies, it makes the news. Why should this be any different? Mr. Khashoggi was resident here on an "O" visa. It's my understanding he was applying for a green card but I don't know if he'd started those proceedings before his death. He moved here in 2017, if I understand correctly.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 26, 2018 14:43:04 GMT -5
okay, let's move on from this discussion about Virgil's posting habits. going to be cleaning up some posts soon.
-chiver mod
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 26, 2018 14:49:31 GMT -5
1) There's a lot of stuff I have never mentioned on this board. Are you going to assume I know nothing about anything I haven't mentioned on this board? 2) You want me to cherry pick stuff out of context that you said over the years? Find a post where I talked about how much I admired Saudi Arabia. You quoted one where I said we needed them as allies. Unfortunately, the US (and Canada) has been allies with a lot of crappy tyrants. Doesn't mean I like it. 3) Refer back to #1. Because I never mentioned Yemen doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what's happening there. Is this why you tend to think we're all idiots, because you're only judging us on what we've said on this board? That would explain a lot.
Here, I'll femsplain something for you, since you're not getting it. For some of us, what happened to Khashoggi and Trump's response to it is exceptionally chilling because some of us are afraid that Trump will begin clamping down on free speech. That he'll start locking up or murdering journalists who dare to criticize him, just like his hero Putin, and like MSB does, and other tyrants who want to control the media to stamp out the opposition. That 'fake news' and removing press credentials is just the prologue to a darker chapter in our democracy. Yes, what's happening to the children in Yemen is tragic, and so is what's happening to kids in Syria and Somalia and any number of other war ravaged, unstable, murderous countries, and yes, Saudia Arabia has lately become one of those murderous countries, since MBS became crown prince, but as another poster pointed out, we're generally more sensitive to things that impact us closer to home, and Trump being inspired to clamp down further on the 'fake news' - or, as you refer to it, MSM - frightens me.
A parable: Uncle Sam Inc. makes bikes at a bike factory. This factory has operated for decades and is surely one of the most toxic plants on Earth. It spews sludge, pollutes the air, and kills millions of people. Maude McMedia, the local gossip and busybody, has known about Sam Inc. as long as it's been in existence. She's grumbled about it once or twice over the years. However, her city, Samville, needs bikes, and people there care little about pollution, hence Maude preoccupies herself gossiping about more sensational things. That is, until the day that Thomas Bugle, a gruff tycoon, takes over ownership of Sam Inc. Maude and Bugle detest each other. Both would sell their souls to undermine the other, even a little bit. With Bugle coming into possession of Sam Inc., Maude thinks to herself, "Perhaps I can harm Bugle by gossiping about all the pollution Sam Inc. creates." But she quickly realizes: "No, I can't do this. Bugle is doing exactly as the previous owners of Sam Inc. did--my friends Bob, Greg, and Barry. I always looked the other way, even supported them at times, when it came to the operation of Sam Inc. If I condemn Bugle on that basis, everyone will dismiss me as a hypocrite." Hence Maude bides her time, waging war on Bugle in other ways, until finally an opportunity presents itself. A boy in Samville, Johnny Khash, while riding a defective bike made by Sam Inc., loses a wheel, crashes, strikes his head, and dies. Maude can barely contain her excitement. "Sam Inc.'s bikes are killing us!" She proclaims in the streets. "Bugle's bikes kill children!" She shouts from the rooftops. "Remember Johnny!" She weeps in the midst of great crowds built up around her, "Will your child be next?" Within weeks, all of Samville is abuzz about little Johnny and the dangers of rocks and biking. "Down with Sam Inc.!" The mob cries. "Down with Bugle!" Nigel, a visitor to the city, looks on with disbelief. "People of Samville," he asks. "You wail and agonize over Johnny, but if defective products is what concerns you, do you not know that other factories in Samville kill far more children than Sam Inc. with defective products?" And they answer him, "We know this!"
He asks, "Do you not know that the pollution from Sam Inc. has killed millions? So many souls as to make the toll of defects insignificant by comparison." And they answer him, "We know this!"
"Do you not know that Bugle is doing no differently than any of his many predecessors?" And they answer him, "We know this!" "Then why," Nigel asks, "are you stirred up into an angry mob by Maude McMedia, who knows these same things? Why were you not an angry mob a year ago? Five years ago? Ten years ago?" And no one can answer him. "If you knew and cared about the millions killed by Sam Inc., why do you obsess only over Johnny--the one boy Maude has told you matters--and speak not a word about the millions of others?" And no one can answer him, except to say, "We're a mob, and the mob needs an icon it can touch and feel." Nigel tells them, "You are indeed a mob. And are you not being manipulated by Maude for her own ends?" This supposition infuriates the citizens of Samville, who delight to think of themselves as objective, sophisticated people, not an angry mob that can be switched on and off by the likes of Maude McMedia. "How dare you criticize us!" They cry, "We care about the millions dead. We're not ignorant of Sam Inc. Maude has no power over us, to blind us, distract us, and lead us into crusades against her foes. Besides, you're not perfect yourself."
Hence Nigel leaves Samville. But what is he to think? Should he believe the citizens' words, or should he judge them by their behaviour, both past and present? What would you do?
You've got the scenario wrong.
What really set Maude McMedia off was not that Bugle owned the company when it happened, but that Bugle sat on his fat ass and said 'Johnny's just some kid, he's not really from this town, and I really love those bikes even though everyone knows they're death traps and kill people on a daily basis - but I love them, so I'm not doing shit about the fact that Johnny got hurt, I'm not discontinuing making those wonderful bikes - they're the best ever, bigly, and everyone in Samville can bite me.'
If Bugle had been diplomatic, and attempted to work with his board of directors, and gave a rational explanation for how the bad bikes got into the marketplace, and what he was going to fix the problem, Maude McMedia would have had nothing to bitch about, but Bugle never listens to anyone, not even his own advisors, and constantly complains about how mean everyone is to him, even when he's being an ass and a bully, and the people of Samville are just about fed up to here with Bugles self pitying whining and his failure to take responsibility for even the smallest piece of shit problem that comes out of his factory.
What would you do, under that scenario, if you were Maude McMedia?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 26, 2018 16:01:05 GMT -5
Stay in town, stand on box on a street corner, and lecture the passersby endlessly.
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Nov 26, 2018 16:11:36 GMT -5
Would you utilize lengthy paragraph techniques?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 18:48:15 GMT -5
A parable: Uncle Sam Inc. makes bikes at a bike factory. This factory has operated for decades and is surely one of the most toxic plants on Earth. It spews sludge, pollutes the air, and kills millions of people. Maude McMedia, the local gossip and busybody, has known about Sam Inc. as long as it's been in existence. She's grumbled about it once or twice over the years. However, her city, Samville, needs bikes, and people there care little about pollution, hence Maude preoccupies herself gossiping about more sensational things. That is, until the day that Thomas Bugle, a gruff tycoon, takes over ownership of Sam Inc. Maude and Bugle detest each other. Both would sell their souls to undermine the other, even a little bit. With Bugle coming into possession of Sam Inc., Maude thinks to herself, "Perhaps I can harm Bugle by gossiping about all the pollution Sam Inc. creates." But she quickly realizes: "No, I can't do this. Bugle is doing exactly as the previous owners of Sam Inc. did--my friends Bob, Greg, and Barry. I always looked the other way, even supported them at times, when it came to the operation of Sam Inc. If I condemn Bugle on that basis, everyone will dismiss me as a hypocrite." Hence Maude bides her time, waging war on Bugle in other ways, until finally an opportunity presents itself. A boy in Samville, Johnny Khash, while riding a defective bike made by Sam Inc., loses a wheel, crashes, strikes his head, and dies. Maude can barely contain her excitement. "Sam Inc.'s bikes are killing us!" She proclaims in the streets. "Bugle's bikes kill children!" She shouts from the rooftops. "Remember Johnny!" She weeps in the midst of great crowds built up around her, "Will your child be next?" Within weeks, all of Samville is abuzz about little Johnny and the dangers of rocks and biking. "Down with Sam Inc.!" The mob cries. "Down with Bugle!" Nigel, a visitor to the city, looks on with disbelief. "People of Samville," he asks. "You wail and agonize over Johnny, but if defective products is what concerns you, do you not know that other factories in Samville kill far more children than Sam Inc. with defective products?" And they answer him, "We know this!"
He asks, "Do you not know that the pollution from Sam Inc. has killed millions? So many souls as to make the toll of defects insignificant by comparison." And they answer him, "We know this!"
"Do you not know that Bugle is doing no differently than any of his many predecessors?" And they answer him, "We know this!" "Then why," Nigel asks, "are you stirred up into an angry mob by Maude McMedia, who knows these same things? Why were you not an angry mob a year ago? Five years ago? Ten years ago?" And no one can answer him. "If you knew and cared about the millions killed by Sam Inc., why do you obsess only over Johnny--the one boy Maude has told you matters--and speak not a word about the millions of others?" And no one can answer him, except to say, "We're a mob, and the mob needs an icon it can touch and feel." Nigel tells them, "You are indeed a mob. And are you not being manipulated by Maude for her own ends?" This supposition infuriates the citizens of Samville, who delight to think of themselves as objective, sophisticated people, not an angry mob that can be switched on and off by the likes of Maude McMedia. "How dare you criticize us!" They cry, "We care about the millions dead. We're not ignorant of Sam Inc. Maude has no power over us, to blind us, distract us, and lead us into crusades against her foes. Besides, you're not perfect yourself."
Hence Nigel leaves Samville. But what is he to think? Should he believe the citizens' words, or should he judge them by their behaviour, both past and present? What would you do?
You've got the scenario wrong.
What really set Maude McMedia off was not that Bugle owned the company when it happened, but that Bugle sat on his fat ass and said 'Johnny's just some kid, he's not really from this town, and I really love those bikes even though everyone knows they're death traps and kill people on a daily basis - but I love them, so I'm not doing shit about the fact that Johnny got hurt, I'm not discontinuing making those wonderful bikes - they're the best ever, bigly, and everyone in Samville can bite me.'
If Bugle had been diplomatic, and attempted to work with his board of directors, and gave a rational explanation for how the bad bikes got into the marketplace, and what he was going to fix the problem, Maude McMedia would have had nothing to bitch about, but Bugle never listens to anyone, not even his own advisors, and constantly complains about how mean everyone is to him, even when he's being an ass and a bully, and the people of Samville are just about fed up to here with Bugles self pitying whining and his failure to take responsibility for even the smallest piece of shit problem that comes out of his factory.
What would you do, under that scenario, if you were Maude McMedia? Hence you're not so much upset about Pres. Trump doing business with homicidal regimes--as all his predecessors did--as you are that he's justifying the US's longstanding position where his predecessors were content to simply sweep it all under the rug. You know, in a limited way I agree with you: a commander-in-chief who sweeps blood under the rug is preferable from a diplomatic standpoint. At least the world can imagine he feels some sort of shame, while the leader who opens his mouth (i.e. Pres. Trump) affords us no such luxury. However, Pres. Trump isn't entirely to blame either. He isn't blameless, but he's also never had the option to sweep blood under the rug, while his predecessors did so with ease.
Where were the media ultimatums, gnashing of teeth, and tearing of clothes when Pres. Bush brought in the Patriot Act, warrantless spying, and preemptive war? Nowhere. Where were the NYT and Wapo when Pres. Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process (not unlike a certain Saudi prince), deposing governments, arming radicals, selling weapons to terrorists, firing missiles into hospitals, consorting with the Saudis to depose Al Assad, murdering and displacing millions in Syria? They were praising his "lawyerly mind", jockeying for interviews like lapdogs, and lobbing softball questions. Where was the media on Snowden, Assange, the Vault 5 leaks, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Fisk--journalists with shocking revelations about the enormity of the US's sins? Circling their wagons, clutching the US administration close to their bosom, and screaming "How dare they expose Sam's garbage! Hang 'em all from the highest tree!" louder than even the White House itself.
But now... now they're personae non grata at the White House and out come the crocodile tears about evil Uncle Sam. Damn that Pres. Trump for treating us like scum not sticking it to Saudi Arabia. Buy our papers. We care about foreigners. We care about a free press in Saudi Arabia. Honest.
Seventeen years too bloody late, Maude.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Nov 26, 2018 19:00:36 GMT -5
You've got the scenario wrong.
What really set Maude McMedia off was not that Bugle owned the company when it happened, but that Bugle sat on his fat ass and said 'Johnny's just some kid, he's not really from this town, and I really love those bikes even though everyone knows they're death traps and kill people on a daily basis - but I love them, so I'm not doing shit about the fact that Johnny got hurt, I'm not discontinuing making those wonderful bikes - they're the best ever, bigly, and everyone in Samville can bite me.'
If Bugle had been diplomatic, and attempted to work with his board of directors, and gave a rational explanation for how the bad bikes got into the marketplace, and what he was going to fix the problem, Maude McMedia would have had nothing to bitch about, but Bugle never listens to anyone, not even his own advisors, and constantly complains about how mean everyone is to him, even when he's being an ass and a bully, and the people of Samville are just about fed up to here with Bugles self pitying whining and his failure to take responsibility for even the smallest piece of shit problem that comes out of his factory.
What would you do, under that scenario, if you were Maude McMedia? Hence you're not so much upset about Pres. Trump doing business with homicidal regimes--as all his predecessors did--as you are that he's justifying the US's longstanding position where his predecessors were content to simply sweep it all under the rug. You know, in a limited way I agree with you: a commander-in-chief who sweeps blood under the rug is preferable from a diplomatic standpoint. At least the world can imagine he feels some sort of shame, while the leader who opens his mouth (i.e. Pres. Trump) affords us no such luxury. However, Pres. Trump isn't entirely to blame either. He isn't blameless, but he's also never had the option to sweep blood under the rug, while his predecessors did so with ease.
Where were the media ultimatums, gnashing of teeth, and tearing of clothes when Pres. Bush brought in the Patriot Act, warrantless spying, and preemptive war? Nowhere. Where were the NYT and Wapo when Pres. Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process (not unlike a certain Saudi prince), deposing governments, arming radicals, selling weapons to terrorists, firing missiles into hospitals, consorting with the Saudis to depose Al Assad, murdering and displacing millions in Syria? They were praising his "lawyerly mind", jockeying for interviews like lapdogs, and lobbing softball questions. Where was the media on Snowden, Assange, the Vault 5 leaks, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Fisk--journalists with shocking revelations about the enormity of the US's sins? Circling their wagons, clutching the US administration close to their bosom, and screaming "How dare they expose Sam's garbage! Hang 'em all from the highest tree!" louder than even the White House itself.
But now... now they're personae non grata at the White House and out come the crocodile tears about evil Uncle Sam. Damn that Pres. Trump for treating us like scum not sticking it to Saudi Arabia. Buy our papers. We care about foreigners. We care about a free press in Saudi Arabia. Honest.
Seventeen years too bloody late, Maude.
"Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process " Names, places...links please....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 21:48:22 GMT -5
Hence you're not so much upset about Pres. Trump doing business with homicidal regimes--as all his predecessors did--as you are that he's justifying the US's longstanding position where his predecessors were content to simply sweep it all under the rug. You know, in a limited way I agree with you: a commander-in-chief who sweeps blood under the rug is preferable from a diplomatic standpoint. At least the world can imagine he feels some sort of shame, while the leader who opens his mouth (i.e. Pres. Trump) affords us no such luxury. However, Pres. Trump isn't entirely to blame either. He isn't blameless, but he's also never had the option to sweep blood under the rug, while his predecessors did so with ease.
Where were the media ultimatums, gnashing of teeth, and tearing of clothes when Pres. Bush brought in the Patriot Act, warrantless spying, and preemptive war? Nowhere. Where were the NYT and Wapo when Pres. Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process (not unlike a certain Saudi prince), deposing governments, arming radicals, selling weapons to terrorists, firing missiles into hospitals, consorting with the Saudis to depose Al Assad, murdering and displacing millions in Syria? They were praising his "lawyerly mind", jockeying for interviews like lapdogs, and lobbing softball questions. Where was the media on Snowden, Assange, the Vault 5 leaks, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Fisk--journalists with shocking revelations about the enormity of the US's sins? Circling their wagons, clutching the US administration close to their bosom, and screaming "How dare they expose Sam's garbage! Hang 'em all from the highest tree!" louder than even the White House itself.
But now... now they're personae non grata at the White House and out come the crocodile tears about evil Uncle Sam. Damn that Pres. Trump for treating us like scum not sticking it to Saudi Arabia. Buy our papers. We care about foreigners. We care about a free press in Saudi Arabia. Honest.
Seventeen years too bloody late, Maude.
"Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process " Names, places...links please.... townhall.com/tipsheet/chrisreeves/2018/11/25/forget-khashoggi-where-were-our-elites-when-obama-assassinated-american-citizens-n2536445
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Nov 26, 2018 22:43:43 GMT -5
Those so targeted are enemy combatants….worse then enemy soldiers but traitors to their country who target their own fellows for death and worse...of course they will be singled out...and eliminated if at all possible....spies and traitors are executed...accepted policy by all nations...especially dangerous to a nation....thus extreme prejudice is warranted...by turning traitor they have given up all rights that a citizen might have to a trial...their actions took away any such rights...Now...if found ...summary execution is the verdict
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steff
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I'll sleep when I'm dead
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Post by steff on Nov 26, 2018 22:55:41 GMT -5
an opinion piece from a far right website started by The Heritage Foundation. Not a news site.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 26, 2018 23:08:12 GMT -5
US 'slams the brakes' on UN Yemen ceasefire resolution
Washington (CNN)The US has "slammed the brakes on" a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for a limited ceasefire and increased humanitarian aid in Yemen over concerns about angering Saudi Arabia, two sources tell CNN. One source familiar with the negotiations over the resolution tells CNN the US "has slammed the brakes on," saying that "we can't support a resolution at the moment." The source also said the move is at odds with what US Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley has been signaling to her counterparts at the UN, since she was supportive of the planned resolution weeks ago. The White House declined to comment, referring queries about the resolution to the US Mission to the United Nations. Officials there also refused to comment. The reason for the delay continues to be a White House worry about angering Saudi Arabia, which strongly opposes the resolution, multiple sources say. CNN reported earlier this month that the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, "threw a fit" when presented with an early draft of the document, leading to a delay and further discussions among Western allies on the matter. Complete article here: US 'slams the brakes' on UN Yemen ceasefire resolution
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 26, 2018 23:12:30 GMT -5
Jared Kushner pushed to inflate Saudi arms deal to $110 billion: SourcesPresident Donald Trump's reluctance to hold Saudi leadership accountable for the brutal murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi stemmed from a partly aspirational $110 billion arms deal between the U.S. and Saudia Arabia that was inflated at the direction of Trump's son-in-law and adviser Jared Kushner, according to two U.S. officials and three former White House officials. Kushner, in a bid to symbolically solidify the new alliance between the Trump administration and Saudi Arabia while claiming a victory on the president's first foreign trip to Riyadh, pushed State and Defense officials to inflate the figure with arms exchanges that were aspirational at best, the officials said. Secretary of Defense James Mattis supported Kushner's effort and ultimately endorsed the memorandum, according to a former NSC official familiar with the matter. Another U.S. official said there was a back and forth between Kushner and Department of Defense and State officials on how to get to a larger number because the officials initially told Kushner that realistically they had about $15 billion worth of deals in works, based on the Saudi government's interest in a Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) anti-ballistic missile system and maintenance of other systems. But even that order has not been fulfilled. Complete article here: Jared Kushner pushed to inflate Saudi arms deal to $110 billion: Sources
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 26, 2018 23:24:51 GMT -5
Townhall? ROTFLMAO!! Might as well post something from The Onion....it will be more believable. Townhall.com is a website that allows wingnuts to rant about anything too liberal for them, which is nearly everything. It is further to the right than the National Review Online. Like Salem Radio Network it is owned by Salem Communications. It represents all of the loudest sects of the American right, including hardline neoconservatism, the religious right, and some paleoconservatives. Townhall is a hotbed for wingnut paranoia. It has a severe persecution complex and sees liberalism everywhere, which is trying to destroy Christianity and democracy as we know it. Like most websites on the radical right blogosphere it has many columns opposing the "gay agenda",[1] abortion,[2] the "liberal media" (which is almost all of the media), universal healthcare,[3] and Barack Obama. It promotes global warming denialism,[4] the Iraq War,[5] torture,[6] and, oddly, Sarah Palin. There is an inherent disdain and paranoia towards Europe, Hollywood, and "liberal elites" such as Al Gore. For whatever reason, random attacks on John McCain and his daughter Meghan McCain for not being "true conservative Republicans" is a running theme as well. Pretty much any notable conservative can contribute an article to the site regardless of their credentials, leading to the site having too many contributors to name. They pump out tens of articles in no time, which helps counter any fact checkers who would need to go through the massive list of archives to find the absolute worst articles. Here's a list of their most "notable" columnists: Read for more. It includes Ann Coulter, Michelle Bachmann and Glen Beck. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Townhall.comSeriously, Virgil? You decry "the media" while gracing the board with Townhall? Jesus!
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Nov 26, 2018 23:42:33 GMT -5
This pretty much sums up how I feel about this incident: (There's nothing like selling your soul...)
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 27, 2018 8:17:30 GMT -5
You've got the scenario wrong.
What really set Maude McMedia off was not that Bugle owned the company when it happened, but that Bugle sat on his fat ass and said 'Johnny's just some kid, he's not really from this town, and I really love those bikes even though everyone knows they're death traps and kill people on a daily basis - but I love them, so I'm not doing shit about the fact that Johnny got hurt, I'm not discontinuing making those wonderful bikes - they're the best ever, bigly, and everyone in Samville can bite me.'
If Bugle had been diplomatic, and attempted to work with his board of directors, and gave a rational explanation for how the bad bikes got into the marketplace, and what he was going to fix the problem, Maude McMedia would have had nothing to bitch about, but Bugle never listens to anyone, not even his own advisors, and constantly complains about how mean everyone is to him, even when he's being an ass and a bully, and the people of Samville are just about fed up to here with Bugles self pitying whining and his failure to take responsibility for even the smallest piece of shit problem that comes out of his factory.
What would you do, under that scenario, if you were Maude McMedia? Hence you're not so much upset about Pres. Trump doing business with homicidal regimes--as all his predecessors did--as you are that he's justifying the US's longstanding position where his predecessors were content to simply sweep it all under the rug. You know, in a limited way I agree with you: a commander-in-chief who sweeps blood under the rug is preferable from a diplomatic standpoint. At least the world can imagine he feels some sort of shame, while the leader who opens his mouth (i.e. Pres. Trump) affords us no such luxury. However, Pres. Trump isn't entirely to blame either. He isn't blameless, but he's also never had the option to sweep blood under the rug, while his predecessors did so with ease. What do you call what he's doing right now? Insisting we have to believe what the Saudi King and Prince say, because they vehemently deny they did anything wrong? Seems like Trump is trying hard to sweep the whole issue under the rug, hoping everyone will forget the new prince is quickly blossoming into a tyrant.
Where were the media ultimatums, gnashing of teeth, and tearing of clothes when Pres. Bush brought in the Patriot Act, warrantless spying, and preemptive war? Nowhere. Seriously, you don't remember any articles about this? There was tremendous push back, and plenty written up in the MSM that you decry. Where we you? Reading those far right rags? Where were the NYT and Wapo when Pres. Obama was locking up whistleblowers by the hundreds, covertly assassinating American citizens deemed "threatening" with no oversight or due process (not unlike a certain Saudi prince), deposing governments, arming radicals, selling weapons to terrorists, firing missiles into hospitals, consorting with the Saudis to depose Al Assad, murdering and displacing millions in Syria? They were praising his "lawyerly mind", jockeying for interviews like lapdogs, and lobbing softball questions. So now you're wailing about poor Al Assad? The same guy who gassed his own citizens (including children?) The same guy who is big buddies with Iran's terrorists? The one that has been slaughtering the Sunni opposition, while Trump has funneled more men and more equipment into Syria to defeat ISIS? Does it bother you that Trump's stated goal is to overthrown Iran? Lots of kids living in Iran, I'm guessing. I'm having a hard time figuring out which side you've aligned yourself with here - Trump, Al Assad, ISIS, or are you just pro little children - in which case, you never answered my question about whether or not it's a fine thing for Trump to order troops to fire tear gas at refugee women and children on our border. Good or bad? Right or wrong? I'm sure you can tell me. Where was the media on Snowden, Assange, the Vault 5 leaks, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Fisk--journalists with shocking revelations about the enormity of the US's sins? Circling their wagons, clutching the US administration close to their bosom, and screaming "How dare they expose Sam's garbage! Hang 'em all from the highest tree!" louder than even the White House itself. I think I see the problem here. You subsist on a diet of far right media sites like townhall, sites that are loaded up with opinion pieces (as opposed to actual journalism) and that don't bother to fact check any of the articles their far right wing talking heads submit. You're as tainted as one of those people who only ever watch Fox news - and just as predisposed to take whatever you hear on those sites as holy gospel, while everything not hosted on those sites is obviously fake.
But now... now they're personae non grata at the White House and out come the crocodile tears about evil Uncle Sam. Damn that Pres. Trump for treating us like scum not sticking it to Saudi Arabia. Buy our papers. We care about foreigners. We care about a free press in Saudi Arabia. Honest.
Seventeen years too bloody late, Maude.
I'm afraid there is no middle ground for us, Virgil. You get your news from a certain type of website, and a certain type of talking head. I roam around, reading far right and far left sites, as well as your much hated MSM sites, and try to ferret out actual journalism, as opposed to opinion pieces written by authors with a particular ax to grind.
It's like we exist in two different parallel universes. But I knew that already. Pointless to keep jabbing at each other.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 27, 2018 11:55:06 GMT -5
Where were the media ultimatums, gnashing of teeth, and tearing of clothes when Pres. Bush brought in the Patriot Act, warrantless spying, and preemptive war? Nowhere. Seriously, you don't remember any articles about this? There was tremendous push back, and plenty written up in the MSM that you decry. Where we you? Reading those far right rags? this caught my eye this morning, because i remember this very well, and quite differently. between 911 and Katrina, the media was largely uncritical of the "president during wartime". they could and SHOULD have done a much better job of questioning the "evidence" for war that Bush brought. their failure to do so cost the US a $1T and every ounce of moral capital won when the twin towers fell. during the succeeding time, the media got together to analyze their abject failure and admitted to it. they admitted that they were kowtowed by patriots and FOX into repeating the lies that got us into that war to drum up public opinion for it. rather than being an effective counterweight for government propaganda, they carried the water for it.
THAT is what i remember. and i can assure you that i remember it with the clarity of yesterday, because i have gone back and reviewed it dozens of times.
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Nov 27, 2018 12:21:40 GMT -5
That $$$ is way more than 1 trillion. I think Steiglitz estimated $3T over 10 years ago and we are still there. As we have discussed before....don't do that and don't give the massive tax cuts to the uber wealthy and we could have paid off the deficit completely. Subsequently taxes could have been cut for the middle class equal to the interest payments on the debt and created a demand based economy that would have shredded.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 27, 2018 12:43:33 GMT -5
Those so targeted are enemy combatants….worse then enemy soldiers but traitors to their country who target their own fellows for death and worse...of course they will be singled out...and eliminated if at all possible....spies and traitors are executed...accepted policy by all nations...especially dangerous to a nation....thus extreme prejudice is warranted...by turning traitor they have given up all rights that a citizen might have to a trial...their actions took away any such rights...Now...if found ...summary execution is the verdict You're missing the point that the US executive branch gets to secretly, unilaterally, unaccountably blow its citizens' brains out, and we have to take their word for it that the people they're killing are supervillains (in spite of the fact that several of the targets we know about were anything but). ... Townhall.com is ... Townhall is ... ... Genetic fallacy. I'm afraid there is no middle ground for us, Virgil. You get your news from a certain type of website, and a certain type of talking head. I roam around, reading far right and far left sites, as well as your much hated MSM sites, and try to ferret out actual journalism, as opposed to opinion pieces written by authors with a particular ax to grind. Do you know how one can tell articles aspiring to "actual journalism" apart from "opinion pieces written by authors with a particular ax to grind" (assuming the two categories are mutually exclusive, which they aren't)? By posting them in forums like this one, in which the facts the articles present and the conclusions they draw are subject to criticism, debate, and review. For example: an article about the US programme to assassinate American citizens. If such an article is posted in a skeptical forum such as YMAM and dealt criticisms such as "The author states that X, but this can be disproven by Y," or "Although the author states X, his conclusion Y doesn't follow because Z," and such criticisms have merit, one can reasonably begin to discount the article as biased or flawed, even to the point of worthlessness. Conversely, if such an article faces criticisms such as, "Spies and traitors are executed. This is accepted policy by all nations. Extreme prejudice is warranted. They've given up all rights that a citizen might have to a trial." (rationalization), "My site says your site is a just a bunch of nutty conservatives." (genetic fallacy), and "LOLOLOL!! XD" (appeal to incredulity), etc., then as time passes with no valid criticisms able to 'stick', one's confidence in the correctness of the article and in its status as "actual journalism" can reasonably grow. Hence if your goal is to "try to ferret out actual journalism", by all means post articles here on YMAM (or preferably on a site where sufficiently many conservative/opposition/contrarian posters are present to mount a worthy attack), argue in defense of their conclusions, subject them to the heuristic described above, and you needn't worry about which "certain type of website" they come from or which "certain type of talking head" delivers them, neither of which reliably determines their value or status as actual journalism. My apologies if you already know all of this, but sometimes it can't hurt to state the obvious.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 27, 2018 13:34:23 GMT -5
"You're missing the point that the US executive branch gets to secretly, unilaterally, unaccountably blow its citizens' brains out, and we have to take their word for it that the people they're killing are supervillains (in spite of the fact that several of the targets we know about were anything but). "
Secretly? Not much of a secret, if you know about it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 27, 2018 13:46:53 GMT -5
"You're missing the point that the US executive branch gets to secretly, unilaterally, unaccountably blow its citizens' brains out, and we have to take their word for it that the people they're killing are supervillains (in spite of the fact that several of the targets we know about were anything but). "
Secretly? Not much of a secret, if you know about it. We find out about some of them, usually months after the fact, if/when the White House wants to brag. Also, through leaks and foreign news agencies like Al Jazeera, although they can often only speculate.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Nov 27, 2018 22:29:20 GMT -5
Townhall? ROTFLMAO!! Might as well post something from The Onion....it will be more believable. Townhall.com is a website that allows wingnuts to rant about anything too liberal for them, which is nearly everything. It is further to the right than the National Review Online. Like Salem Radio Network it is owned by Salem Communications. It represents all of the loudest sects of the American right, including hardline neoconservatism, the religious right, and some paleoconservatives. Townhall is a hotbed for wingnut paranoia. It has a severe persecution complex and sees liberalism everywhere, which is trying to destroy Christianity and democracy as we know it. Like most websites on the radical right blogosphere it has many columns opposing the "gay agenda",[1] abortion,[2] the "liberal media" (which is almost all of the media), universal healthcare,[3] and Barack Obama. It promotes global warming denialism,[4] the Iraq War,[5] torture,[6] and, oddly, Sarah Palin. There is an inherent disdain and paranoia towards Europe, Hollywood, and "liberal elites" such as Al Gore. For whatever reason, random attacks on John McCain and his daughter Meghan McCain for not being "true conservative Republicans" is a running theme as well. Pretty much any notable conservative can contribute an article to the site regardless of their credentials, leading to the site having too many contributors to name. They pump out tens of articles in no time, which helps counter any fact checkers who would need to go through the massive list of archives to find the absolute worst articles. Here's a list of their most "notable" columnists: Read for more. It includes Ann Coulter, Michelle Bachmann and Glen Beck. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Townhall.comSeriously, Virgil? You decry "the media" while gracing the board with Townhall? Jesus! The way you dislike Salem radio, is the same way I see liberal cnn garbage. I'd rather be a paranoid wingnut listening to Larry Elder, Mike Galleger, Dennis Prager than to listen to the liberal nonsense of Don Lemmon, Rachael Maddow, Chuck Todd
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 27, 2018 23:13:17 GMT -5
Townhall? ROTFLMAO!! Might as well post something from The Onion....it will be more believable. Townhall.com is a website that allows wingnuts to rant about anything too liberal for them, which is nearly everything. It is further to the right than the National Review Online. Like Salem Radio Network it is owned by Salem Communications. It represents all of the loudest sects of the American right, including hardline neoconservatism, the religious right, and some paleoconservatives. Townhall is a hotbed for wingnut paranoia. It has a severe persecution complex and sees liberalism everywhere, which is trying to destroy Christianity and democracy as we know it. Like most websites on the radical right blogosphere it has many columns opposing the "gay agenda",[1] abortion,[2] the "liberal media" (which is almost all of the media), universal healthcare,[3] and Barack Obama. It promotes global warming denialism,[4] the Iraq War,[5] torture,[6] and, oddly, Sarah Palin. There is an inherent disdain and paranoia towards Europe, Hollywood, and "liberal elites" such as Al Gore. For whatever reason, random attacks on John McCain and his daughter Meghan McCain for not being "true conservative Republicans" is a running theme as well. Pretty much any notable conservative can contribute an article to the site regardless of their credentials, leading to the site having too many contributors to name. They pump out tens of articles in no time, which helps counter any fact checkers who would need to go through the massive list of archives to find the absolute worst articles. Here's a list of their most "notable" columnists: Read for more. It includes Ann Coulter, Michelle Bachmann and Glen Beck. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Townhall.comSeriously, Virgil? You decry "the media" while gracing the board with Townhall? Jesus! The way you dislike Salem radio, is the same way I see liberal cnn garbage. I'd rather be a paranoid wingnut listening to Larry Elder, Mike Galleger, Dennis Prager than to listen to the liberal nonsense of Don Lemmon, Rachael Maddow, Chuck Todd There's no doubt of that, ednkris. Tell us again how vaccines will kill us all, and how Trump is just a super cool guy. There's nothing more to say. One of the first things I learned in psychiatry was to never argue with someone who is delusional, and I'm not going to start now.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Nov 28, 2018 21:21:38 GMT -5
The way you dislike Salem radio, is the same way I see liberal cnn garbage. I'd rather be a paranoid wingnut listening to Larry Elder, Mike Galleger, Dennis Prager than to listen to the liberal nonsense of Don Lemmon, Rachael Maddow, Chuck Todd There's no doubt of that, ednkris. Tell us again how vaccines will kill us all, and how Trump is just a super cool guy. There's nothing more to say. One of the first things I learned in psychiatry was to never argue with someone who is delusional, and I'm not going to start now. I never said vaccines kill you....I said people will worry about pesticides but they will pump vaccines into their kids without question what the side effects are or what their made of. I vaccinated my kids and my grandkids are vaccinated but I sure as hell don't the little information that is given, if you want it you would have to search for it. It's like be the good sheep and follow the leader because you were told it is good for you. So if caring what goes into my kids makes me delusional I will wear that badge. I don't recall saying Donald Trump is a super cool guy but I do believe he is the best president (so far) since Ronald Reagan. Then again I dont fall in line and follow the liberal sheep because that's the cool thing.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 28, 2018 21:30:05 GMT -5
"I don't recall saying Donald Trump is a super cool guy but I do believe he is the best president (so far) since Ronald Reagan. Then again I dont fall in line and follow the liberal sheep because that's the cool thing."
Like I said, I don't argue with delusional people.
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dondub
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The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
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Post by dondub on Nov 28, 2018 21:42:02 GMT -5
Someone that can view a film clip of Trump mocking the disabled reporter by swinging his arms and making a contorted face, and deny it, is so far down the rabbit hole as to have achieved a level of worthlessness rarely seen on this board. Instead of adding water to the Koo-Aid it's a direct snort of the powder from lines on the coffee table.
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