djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 25, 2018 16:49:58 GMT -5
Some thug got killed by other thugs in a middle eastern country. And that is NEWS? Oh ok then, lol i have never heard anything about Khashoggi being a thug. are you assuming it because he was brown?
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Nov 25, 2018 17:47:31 GMT -5
Some thug got killed by other thugs in a middle eastern country. And that is NEWS? Oh ok then, lol i have never heard anything about Khashoggi being a thug. are you assuming it because he was brown?
That's what I was figuring too. He's Saudi, so automatically a thug. Everyone from the middle east is, remember? <eye roll>
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Nov 25, 2018 17:54:51 GMT -5
What does it say about a person that refers to such a man as a "thug"? From all reports he was a fine citizen and getting ready for marriage. A tragic loss.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 25, 2018 18:06:51 GMT -5
What does it say about a person that refers to such a man as a "thug"? From all reports he was a fine citizen and getting ready for marriage. A tragic loss. i always assume the best of reporters until i find out otherwise. reason being that, like teachers, they are underpaid, overworked, and disrespected. it is not easy work to do unless you love it.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 25, 2018 18:26:30 GMT -5
good lord, this got heated quickly. just a reminder, cut out the name-calling and keep the content to the topic, not other posters. thanks for the edits that have already been made. -chiver mod
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2018 18:40:08 GMT -5
You know what's truly obscene, Virgil? It's that Trump won't do one.effing.thing to SA about Khashoggi because they line his pockets. Trump's personal wealth is more important to him than anything, or anyone, else. It is so beyond disgusting it makes me sick to my stomach. Answer me this: Should the US sanction China, even suspend trade, because of China's abysmal human rights record? That you would have the gall to say his death does not matter is one big fat ugly swing at freedom of speech and the right to hold an opinion, and one you can take because of your position on this board.
Absolutely not true. Mr. Khashoggi is not the 100 ft. tall avatar of free speech, journalism, or even murdered journalists. You simply believe he is because the media has told you he is, for their own purposes. But to get back to it: is his death more important than the death of 84000 and some children that perished in another part of the world? I’d say no, they are equally relevant but such is life: shit happens! The fact that you believe his death has comparable importance to the murder of 84,000 children under the same regime is why this thread exists. So Virgil, are you arguing that no one can be angry about Khashoggi because we've collectively ignored the deaths of tens of thousands of Yemini kids, so we would be hypocrites if we whined about Khashoggi? Now that you're at least aware of the tens of thousands of deaths: Yes, in a nutshell. Unless you're fretting over Mr. Khashoggi's murder less than 1/84,000th as much as the murder of the children. I would even settle for parity between the two.
Here you go,Virgil. Knock yourself out. And thanks for yet another long-winded lecture on how we should think, feel, and post. And thank you for yet another post that doesn't address the thread topic, but instead lectures me on how I should think, feel, and post. I'd say we're two peas in a pod, but at least my lectures address the thread topic. I see story after story about the Yemenis starving, and here you are, saying that the MSM is ignoring it. Here's a story I found in 2 seconds, about the famine and how the United States is complicit. I also see the Yemenis starving on the 6 O'clock News on all our local networks, from the CBC to CTV to Global News. The coverage of the two doesn't begin to compare, although Canadian news sites are admittedly better at covering a breadth of foreign news stories. I maintain my objections, even to the Canadian coverage, in that Mr. Khashoggi's murder ought to have been a single column in the corner of page F46 in a single newspaper, among hundreds of newspapers with foreign affairs sections plastered front to back with other news stories about the House of Saud. Instead, depending on the newspaper, we see the exact opposite: an overwhelming focus on Mr. Kashoggi, with the murder of tens of thousands either never mentioned or relegated to footnotes. It's an obscene distortion. I agree wholly with Ms. Johnstone.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2018 18:48:42 GMT -5
The violence against Yemen is the reason I think we should stop selling weapons and bombs to Saudi Arabia. The journalist is the symptom. Now you're talking. If this thread gets even one person to look past Mr. Khashoggi's murder to the US's long, depraved history with the House of Saud, it will have done its job.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 25, 2018 19:09:12 GMT -5
The violence against Yemen is the reason I think we should stop selling weapons and bombs to Saudi Arabia. The journalist is the symptom. Now you're talking. If this thread gets even one person to look past Mr. Khashoggi's murder to the US's long, depraved history with the House of Saud, it will have done its job.
And if "Mr. Khashoggi's murder (had) been a single column in the corner of page F46 in a single newspaper," the status quo would just continue. Not that it won't anyway, but using him as the poster boy, e.g. Time's Man of the Year, might make a difference.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2018 19:24:26 GMT -5
Jamal Khashoggi Isn't Important Very true. You know, if I hadn't put his name in the thread title and offended people, if I'd instead titled it "House of Saud Murders 84,000 Children", this thread would have dropped off the MRT list in 3 hours with 0 replies and 23 views, most of them from non-members. I'd bet you all the Bratwurst in Bavaria. At least this way a few people learn about the 84,000 children. And the arms deals. And the tie-ins to Iran and US's suicidal Mideast policy.
We consider the answer to the question: Is what the MSM cares about and reports on what I, the reader, should care about? The answer, as I see it, can never be a pure 'yes' or a pure 'no'. If I seem irate, it's because the media handling of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, economic policy, and too many other issues to count in 2018 is so obscenely myopic that for the first time in 36 years, I'm convinced the wise answer is closer to 'no' than to 'yes'. That is, I believe the MSM, despite its enduring value in certain respects, has at last become so corrupted that it does more harm than good to our society when it comes to the reporting of foreign affairs.
2018 is the first year I can say this.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 25, 2018 19:34:55 GMT -5
2018 is the first year I can say this.
Welcome to the party. Glad you finally made it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2018 19:35:38 GMT -5
Now you're talking. If this thread gets even one person to look past Mr. Khashoggi's murder to the US's long, depraved history with the House of Saud, it will have done its job.
And if "Mr. Khashoggi's murder (had) been a single column in the corner of page F46 in a single newspaper," the status quo would just continue. Not that it won't anyway, but using him as the poster boy, e.g. Time's Man of the Year, might make a difference. I just resent the snot out of it all. The media treating us as though we--the entire public--have the collective intelligence of a gnat and the perspective of an M.C. Escher painting. And they're right.
"They can't appreciate the gravity of mass murder, so let's set up a great icon that everybody can recognize and agonize over, and dupe them all into war that way. It worked so well the first 20 times."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 25, 2018 19:50:55 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion, remember the "Liberal International Order" thread? I was a Poli Sci major and then turned away from politics for a long period of my life. The United States invasion of Iraq sucked me back into all this. I wish it hadn't.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 25, 2018 20:12:35 GMT -5
Some thug got killed by other thugs in a middle eastern country. And that is NEWS? Oh ok then, lol (missed this one) Mr. Khashoggi wasn't a thug. He held dubious political ties and a questionable past, but his weapon was always the pen. Where I agree with you is that i) his being murdered by MbS is thoroughly unsurprising, and ii) his death, while tragic, isn't newsworthy.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 25, 2018 20:42:00 GMT -5
And if "Mr. Khashoggi's murder (had) been a single column in the corner of page F46 in a single newspaper," the status quo would just continue. Not that it won't anyway, but using him as the poster boy, e.g. Time's Man of the Year, might make a difference. I just resent the snot out of it all. The media treating us as though we--the entire public--have the collective intelligence of a gnat and the perspective of an M.C. Escher painting. And they're right.
"They can't appreciate the gravity of mass murder, so let's set up a great icon that everybody can recognize and agonize over, and dupe them all into war that way. It worked so well the first 20 times."
And I resent the snot out of you for assuming I have the intelligence of a gnat and didn't know about Saudia Arabia and Yemen, or the tyrannical MBS until you, some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to me.
As someone else already pointed out, there have been plenty off news pieces about MSB, his craven grab for power, and the aggression Saudi Arabia has shown to Qatar and Yemen. Somehow, you've missed all of them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
And because you haven't heard or read enough ranting about the Yemen children doesn't mean we're not allowed to have news reporting about Khashoggi. There isn't some rule that every incident is only granted exactly the right amount of news coverage, as pre-determined by Virgil.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 25, 2018 20:49:56 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion , remember the "Liberal International Order" thread? I was a Poli Sci major and then turned away from politics for a long period of my life. The United States invasion of Iraq sucked me back into all this. I wish it hadn't. i was politically detached prior to Iraq, as well. didn't give a crap. being lied to by Bush during his SOU address in 2003 was the remedy. i have never been the same since. the idea that MY president would openly LIE to me about so many consequential things, IN PUBLIC, shattered my image of what it meant to live in a Western Democracy. i went out and marched against that war. i got beaten and abused by "patriots" and cops. and i learned, for the first time in my adult life, to hate my president. it is an experience that changed me forever. and one i can't "unlearn".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 25, 2018 20:56:45 GMT -5
Jamal Khashoggi Isn't Important Very true. You know, if I hadn't put his name in the thread title and offended people, if I'd instead titled it "House of Saud Murders 84,000 Children", this thread would have dropped off the MRT list in 3 hours with 0 replies and 23 views, most of them from non-members. I'd bet you all the Bratwurst in Bavaria. At least this way a few people learn about the 84,000 children. And the arms deals. And the tie-ins to Iran and US's suicidal Mideast policy.
We consider the answer to the question: Is what the MSM cares about and reports on what I, the reader, should care about? The answer, as I see it, can never be a pure 'yes' or a pure 'no'. If I seem irate, it's because the media handling of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, economic policy, and too many other issues to count in 2018 is so obscenely myopic that for the first time in 36 years, I'm convinced the wise answer is closer to 'no' than to 'yes'. That is, I believe the MSM, despite its enduring value in certain respects, has at last become so corrupted that it does more harm than good to our society when it comes to the reporting of foreign affairs.
2018 is the first year I can say this.
And the people of Bavaria would be looking for your head for giving away their bratwurst. I've been rather active about what's going on in Yemen for quite awhile now. I'd not be surprised I'm not the only one here who has. I still have quite a few friends in the Middle East. One of them was a good friend of Mr. Khashoggi. What, pray tell, have you done with regard to the horrors being perpetrated in Yemen, Virgil?
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Nov 25, 2018 20:59:41 GMT -5
What does it say about a person that refers to such a man as a "thug"? From all reports he was a fine citizen and getting ready for marriage. A tragic loss. Actually it says a lot about the one who throws out insults to a murdered individual just to say something..better to stifle it as Archie would say to Edith...and it doesn't suggest much of a positive feeling to myself...just saying.
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Nov 25, 2018 21:03:01 GMT -5
This was already discussed a while ago and this was also pointed out - Here is the full article with excerpts below - www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-arabia.htmlAny reporter who has covered a humanitarian disaster should understand what Stalin is once reported to have said to a fellow Soviet official: The death of one person is a tragedy, but the death of one million is a statistic.
This is why news coverage of a famine or a flood will often highlight the story of one victim.
Or why, say, Aylan Kurdi, a Syrian boy whose body washed up on a Turkish beach in 2015, galvanized global attention to the larger refugee crisis.
It is not easy to wrap one’s mind around thousands of deaths. It becomes an abstraction of geopolitics, economics, conflict dynamics — of statistics.
But a single death can be understood in the more relatable terms of, say, a grieving father or a desperate spouse. Or a murdered journalist, like Mr. Khashoggi.
Psychologists have repeatedly found that people experience a greater emotional reaction to one death than to many, even if the circumstances are identical. Perversely, the more victims, the less sympathy that people feel.
The effect even has a name: collapse of compassion. It’s not that we can’t care about a million deaths, psychologists believe. Rather, we fear being overwhelmed and switch off our own emotions in pre-emptive self-defense.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 25, 2018 21:36:30 GMT -5
You know, if I hadn't put his name in the thread title and offended people, if I'd instead titled it "House of Saud Murders 84,000 Children", this thread would have dropped off the MRT list in 3 hours with 0 replies and 23 views, most of them from non-members. I'd bet you all the Bratwurst in Bavaria. At least this way a few people learn about the 84,000 children. And the arms deals. And the tie-ins to Iran and US's suicidal Mideast policy.
We consider the answer to the question: Is what the MSM cares about and reports on what I, the reader, should care about? The answer, as I see it, can never be a pure 'yes' or a pure 'no'. If I seem irate, it's because the media handling of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, economic policy, and too many other issues to count in 2018 is so obscenely myopic that for the first time in 36 years, I'm convinced the wise answer is closer to 'no' than to 'yes'. That is, I believe the MSM, despite its enduring value in certain respects, has at last become so corrupted that it does more harm than good to our society when it comes to the reporting of foreign affairs.
2018 is the first year I can say this.
And the people of Bavaria would be looking for your head for giving away their bratwurst. I've been rather active about what's going on in Yemen for quite awhile now. I'd not be surprised I'm not the only one here who has. I still have quite a few friends in the Middle East. One of them was a good friend of Mr. Khashoggi. What, pray tell, have you done with regard to the horrors being perpetrated in Yemen, Virgil? Thoughts and prayers?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 25, 2018 23:13:06 GMT -5
You know, if I hadn't put his name in the thread title and offended people, if I'd instead titled it "House of Saud Murders 84,000 Children", this thread would have dropped off the MRT list in 3 hours with 0 replies and 23 views, most of them from non-members. I'd bet you all the Bratwurst in Bavaria. At least this way a few people learn about the 84,000 children. And the arms deals. And the tie-ins to Iran and US's suicidal Mideast policy.
We consider the answer to the question: Is what the MSM cares about and reports on what I, the reader, should care about? The answer, as I see it, can never be a pure 'yes' or a pure 'no'. If I seem irate, it's because the media handling of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, economic policy, and too many other issues to count in 2018 is so obscenely myopic that for the first time in 36 years, I'm convinced the wise answer is closer to 'no' than to 'yes'. That is, I believe the MSM, despite its enduring value in certain respects, has at last become so corrupted that it does more harm than good to our society when it comes to the reporting of foreign affairs.
2018 is the first year I can say this.
no, not really. there is a well documented history of this in world affairs. are you familiar with East Timor? during the 1970's, there was a civil war there, and then an invasion by Indonesia (whose military was aided by the US), who was an ally at the time. as the atrocities escalated, coverage in the US DECLINED. the number of deaths rivals what you have just stated about Saudi Arabia and Yemen. the media reports on stuff that gets attention. genocide in far away places, if it gets no attention, gets no press coverage. i am sorry to burst your bubble, but the morality of such things matters paltry little to any but those that are paying close attention and care. it takes concerned citizens like you to motivate press coverage- so GO DO IT. stop complaining, and start writing letters, and lobbying your HOP, or whoever it is you think will listen.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 2:51:05 GMT -5
And I resent the snot out of you for assuming I have the intelligence of a gnat and didn't know about Saudia Arabia and Yemen, or the tyrannical MBS until you, some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to me. This coming from a poster who: - ...has never once mentioned Saudi Arabia in 8 years of political discussion except in one of three contexts: 1) the "Trump loves the Saudis" thread (discussing the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, 28 posts in all by you), the "horse face" thread (wherein you accuse Pres. Trump of distracting from the Khashoggi affair), the "Nikki Haley resigns" thread (discussing Jamal Khashoggi--you may be noticing a pattern here), ..., 2) the "Saudi Arabia executes 47" thread from 2016, wherein you somehow manage to discuss Pres. Trump, the ACA, the US Congress, and absolutely nothing related to Saudi Arabia in spite of the thread topic, and 3) the "Saudi Arabia living in the Middle Ages" thread from 2015, where you repeatedly challenge the notion that the US can, should, or will do anything to end injustice in Saudi Arabia (see #2 below).
- ...has made statements such as "What would you propose to do to stop [600 more years of barbarity from Muslims]? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies. They don't care what we think about their legal system. We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. ... I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's."
and lest we forget
"The Saudi king can only remain king as long as he appeases the ultra orthodox religious leaders. As for whether we should blame the Islamic religious faith for the potential death of this reporter for apostasy, I think the problem is not with Islam, but with the interpretation of that religion by Saudi clerics."
paying homage to the media fantasy that was the new, improved, secular, progressive, and definitely-not-mass-murdering House of Saud who would only ever stoop so low under the thumb of "Saudi clerics", Est. 2009.
- ...has never once mentioned Yemen in 8 years, much less Saudi warcrimes there, but for a passing reference in the (you guessed it) "Trump loves the Saudis" Khashoggi thread.
So yes. All evidence collected over the past 8 years, and in particular the past two months, indicates you indeed didn't give a snow leopard's fuzzy arse about Saudi Arabia until the media told you to, or about Yemen, MBS, or Saudi warcrimes until "some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to [you]". ETA: I didn't mean to imply that everyone--or anyone--here has the intellect of a gnat, only that the media treat us that way. The extent to which they're right is up to us. And the people of Bavaria would be looking for your head for giving away their bratwurst. I've been rather active about what's going on in Yemen for quite awhile now. I'd not be surprised I'm not the only one here who has. I still have quite a few friends in the Middle East. One of them was a good friend of Mr. Khashoggi. You don't count, because unlike 99.99X% of your countrymen and mine, you actually lived in Saudi Arabia. You'd be one of the 23 views the thread would actually get. What can I do except tell people about them and ask people to take them seriously? Part of this is ignoring distractions and media sideshows such as the Khashoggi affair. Appealing for perspective.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 2:56:26 GMT -5
You know, if I hadn't put his name in the thread title and offended people, if I'd instead titled it "House of Saud Murders 84,000 Children", this thread would have dropped off the MRT list in 3 hours with 0 replies and 23 views, most of them from non-members. I'd bet you all the Bratwurst in Bavaria. At least this way a few people learn about the 84,000 children. And the arms deals. And the tie-ins to Iran and US's suicidal Mideast policy.
We consider the answer to the question: Is what the MSM cares about and reports on what I, the reader, should care about? The answer, as I see it, can never be a pure 'yes' or a pure 'no'. If I seem irate, it's because the media handling of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, economic policy, and too many other issues to count in 2018 is so obscenely myopic that for the first time in 36 years, I'm convinced the wise answer is closer to 'no' than to 'yes'. That is, I believe the MSM, despite its enduring value in certain respects, has at last become so corrupted that it does more harm than good to our society when it comes to the reporting of foreign affairs.
2018 is the first year I can say this.
no, not really. there is a well documented history of this in world affairs. are you familiar with East Timor? during the 1970's, there was a civil war there, and then an invasion by Indonesia (whose military was aided by the US), who was an ally at the time. as the atrocities escalated, coverage in the US DECLINED. the number of deaths rivals what you have just stated about Saudi Arabia and Yemen. the media reports on stuff that gets attention. genocide in far away places, if it gets no attention, gets no press coverage. i am sorry to burst your bubble, but the morality of such things matters paltry little to any but those that are paying close attention and care. it takes concerned citizens like you to motivate press coverage- so GO DO IT. stop complaining, and start writing letters, and lobbying your HOP, or whoever it is you think will listen.
I do what I can with my news consumption habits, my money, the articles I share, and the links I follow. As for "whoever it is I think will listen", my best hope is for the readership of this board. The rest of what you say is true. As I said to Billis, I deeply resent it. This thread is, in part, a way of venting my frustration.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 2:59:48 GMT -5
Any reporter who has covered a humanitarian disaster should understand what Stalin is once reported to have said to a fellow Soviet official: The death of one person is a tragedy, but the death of one million is a statistic.
...
Psychologists have repeatedly found that people experience a greater emotional reaction to one death than to many, even if the circumstances are identical. Perversely, the more victims, the less sympathy that people feel.
The effect even has a name: collapse of compassion. It’s not that we can’t care about a million deaths, psychologists believe. Rather, we fear being overwhelmed and switch off our own emotions in pre-emptive self-defense. I know. Even so, thank you for providing the quote and the reference. I'm still a young idealist in the sense that I believe as rational beings, we can overcome "collapse of compassion"--or at the very least mitigate it to the degree that we can avoid being manipulated by the media.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 26, 2018 8:04:15 GMT -5
And I resent the snot out of you for assuming I have the intelligence of a gnat and didn't know about Saudia Arabia and Yemen, or the tyrannical MBS until you, some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to me. This coming from a poster who: - ...has never once mentioned Saudi Arabia in 8 years of political discussion except in one of three contexts: 1) the "Trump loves the Saudis" thread (discussing the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, 28 posts in all by you), the "horse face" thread (wherein you accuse Pres. Trump of distracting from the Khashoggi affair), the "Nikki Haley resigns" thread (discussing Jamal Khashoggi--you may be noticing a pattern here), ..., 2) the "Saudi Arabia executes 47" thread from 2016, wherein you somehow manage to discuss Pres. Trump, the ACA, the US Congress, and absolutely nothing related to Saudi Arabia in spite of the thread topic, and 3) the "Saudi Arabia living in the Middle Ages" thread from 2015, where you repeatedly challenge the notion that the US can, should, or will do anything to end injustice in Saudi Arabia (see #2 below).
- ...has made statements such as "What would you propose to do to stop [600 more years of barbarity from Muslims]? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies. They don't care what we think about their legal system. We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. ... I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's."
and lest we forget
"The Saudi king can only remain king as long as he appeases the ultra orthodox religious leaders. As for whether we should blame the Islamic religious faith for the potential death of this reporter for apostasy, I think the problem is not with Islam, but with the interpretation of that religion by Saudi clerics."
paying homage to the media fantasy that was the new, improved, secular, progressive, and definitely-not-mass-murdering House of Saud who would only ever stoop so low under the thumb of "Saudi clerics", Est. 2009.
- ...has never once mentioned Yemen in 8 years, much less Saudi warcrimes there, but for a passing reference in the (you guessed it) "Trump loves the Saudis" Khashoggi thread.
So yes. All evidence collected over the past 8 years, and in particular the past two months, indicates you indeed didn't give a snow leopard's fuzzy arse about Saudi Arabia until the media told you to, or about Yemen, MBS, or Saudi warcrimes until "some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to [you]". ETA: I didn't mean to imply that everyone--or anyone--here has the intellect of a gnat, only that the media treat us that way. The extent to which they're right is up to us. And the people of Bavaria would be looking for your head for giving away their bratwurst. I've been rather active about what's going on in Yemen for quite awhile now. I'd not be surprised I'm not the only one here who has. I still have quite a few friends in the Middle East. One of them was a good friend of Mr. Khashoggi. You don't count, because unlike 99.99X% of your countrymen and mine, you actually lived in Saudi Arabia. You'd be one of the 23 views the thread would actually get. What can I do except tell people about them and ask people to take them seriously? Part of this is ignoring distractions and media sideshows such as the Khashoggi affair. Appealing for perspective.
1) There's a lot of stuff I have never mentioned on this board. Are you going to assume I know nothing about anything I haven't mentioned on this board? 2) You want me to cherry pick stuff out of context that you said over the years? Find a post where I talked about how much I admired Saudi Arabia. You quoted one where I said we needed them as allies. Unfortunately, the US (and Canada) has been allies with a lot of crappy tyrants. Doesn't mean I like it. 3) Refer back to #1. Because I never mentioned Yemen doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what's happening there. Is this why you tend to think we're all idiots, because you're only judging us on what we've said on this board? That would explain a lot.
Here, I'll femsplain something for you, since you're not getting it. For some of us, what happened to Khashoggi and Trump's response to it is exceptionally chilling because some of us are afraid that Trump will begin clamping down on free speech. That he'll start locking up or murdering journalists who dare to criticize him, just like his hero Putin, and like MSB does, and other tyrants who want to control the media to stamp out the opposition. That 'fake news' and removing press credentials is just the prologue to a darker chapter in our democracy. Yes, what's happening to the children in Yemen is tragic, and so is what's happening to kids in Syria and Somalia and any number of other war ravaged, unstable, murderous countries, and yes, Saudia Arabia has lately become one of those murderous countries, since MBS became crown prince, but as another poster pointed out, we're generally more sensitive to things that impact us closer to home, and Trump being inspired to clamp down further on the 'fake news' - or, as you refer to it, MSM - frightens me.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Nov 26, 2018 12:13:40 GMT -5
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happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,900
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Post by happyhoix on Nov 26, 2018 12:16:38 GMT -5
The military at our southern border has been firing tear gas at the caravan of asylum seekers trying to get into the US.
A lot of those people are fleeing violence and gangs in their countries, and are seeking asylum.
Should I be outraged that our soldiers are firing tear gas at kids, or should I be happy we're repelling the caravan of hard core criminals (who are sometimes, apparently children criminals). My mind is so simple I can't decide what's right and morale.
If I do say something about how awful it is that we're firing tear gas at moms and kids, do I first need to list out all the other suffering children of the world, so as not to appear to be a hypocrite? All the kids in Yemen, all the kids in Somalia, all the kids in Syria, all the kids living in gang infested neighborhoods in the US, all the little NK children starving to death - I'm sure I've forgotten tons of them. Let me make a blanket statement of sympathy for all the children of the world who, either from a direct action the US has taken, or failed to take (like sending aid or troops) are suffering.
Let me further offer sympathy for future children who will be caught in the crosshairs - like the Ukrainian kids who may be involved in an escalating war between the Russia and the Ukraine, since Russia attacked some Ukrainian ships recently. Maybe if Putin was afraid of Trump, he wouldn't be escalating the war with Ukraine. Or maybe, the US should send fleets of war ships to protect the Ukrainian ships to prevent further escalation. I just don't know the proper ethical and moral way to go on that - if only someone on this board could help me in my deep and craven ignorance.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Nov 26, 2018 12:31:35 GMT -5
Help is on the way!
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 26, 2018 12:53:22 GMT -5
This coming from a poster who: - ...has never once mentioned Saudi Arabia in 8 years of political discussion except in one of three contexts: 1) the "Trump loves the Saudis" thread (discussing the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, 28 posts in all by you), the "horse face" thread (wherein you accuse Pres. Trump of distracting from the Khashoggi affair), the "Nikki Haley resigns" thread (discussing Jamal Khashoggi--you may be noticing a pattern here), ..., 2) the "Saudi Arabia executes 47" thread from 2016, wherein you somehow manage to discuss Pres. Trump, the ACA, the US Congress, and absolutely nothing related to Saudi Arabia in spite of the thread topic, and 3) the "Saudi Arabia living in the Middle Ages" thread from 2015, where you repeatedly challenge the notion that the US can, should, or will do anything to end injustice in Saudi Arabia (see #2 below).
- ...has made statements such as "What would you propose to do to stop [600 more years of barbarity from Muslims]? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies. They don't care what we think about their legal system. We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. ... I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's."
and lest we forget
"The Saudi king can only remain king as long as he appeases the ultra orthodox religious leaders. As for whether we should blame the Islamic religious faith for the potential death of this reporter for apostasy, I think the problem is not with Islam, but with the interpretation of that religion by Saudi clerics."
paying homage to the media fantasy that was the new, improved, secular, progressive, and definitely-not-mass-murdering House of Saud who would only ever stoop so low under the thumb of "Saudi clerics", Est. 2009.
- ...has never once mentioned Yemen in 8 years, much less Saudi warcrimes there, but for a passing reference in the (you guessed it) "Trump loves the Saudis" Khashoggi thread.
So yes. All evidence collected over the past 8 years, and in particular the past two months, indicates you indeed didn't give a snow leopard's fuzzy arse about Saudi Arabia until the media told you to, or about Yemen, MBS, or Saudi warcrimes until "some random anonymous guy on a small message board, took the time to mansplain it all to [you]". ETA: I didn't mean to imply that everyone--or anyone--here has the intellect of a gnat, only that the media treat us that way. The extent to which they're right is up to us. You don't count, because unlike 99.99X% of your countrymen and mine, you actually lived in Saudi Arabia. You'd be one of the 23 views the thread would actually get. What can I do except tell people about them and ask people to take them seriously? Part of this is ignoring distractions and media sideshows such as the Khashoggi affair. Appealing for perspective.
1) There's a lot of stuff I have never mentioned on this board. Are you going to assume I know nothing about anything I haven't mentioned on this board? 2) You want me to cherry pick stuff out of context that you said over the years? Find a post where I talked about how much I admired Saudi Arabia. You quoted one where I said we needed them as allies. Unfortunately, the US (and Canada) has been allies with a lot of crappy tyrants. Doesn't mean I like it. 3) Refer back to #1. Because I never mentioned Yemen doesn't mean I'm ignorant of what's happening there. Is this why you tend to think we're all idiots, because you're only judging us on what we've said on this board? That would explain a lot.
Here, I'll femsplain something for you, since you're not getting it. For some of us, what happened to Khashoggi and Trump's response to it is exceptionally chilling because some of us are afraid that Trump will begin clamping down on free speech. That he'll start locking up or murdering journalists who dare to criticize him, just like his hero Putin, and like MSB does, and other tyrants who want to control the media to stamp out the opposition. That 'fake news' and removing press credentials is just the prologue to a darker chapter in our democracy. Yes, what's happening to the children in Yemen is tragic, and so is what's happening to kids in Syria and Somalia and any number of other war ravaged, unstable, murderous countries, and yes, Saudia Arabia has lately become one of those murderous countries, since MBS became crown prince, but as another poster pointed out, we're generally more sensitive to things that impact us closer to home, and Trump being inspired to clamp down further on the 'fake news' - or, as you refer to it, MSM - frightens me.
A parable: Uncle Sam Inc. makes bikes at a bike factory. This factory has operated for decades and is surely one of the most toxic plants on Earth. It spews sludge, pollutes the air, and kills millions of people. Maude McMedia, the local gossip and busybody, has known about Sam Inc. as long as it's been in existence. She's grumbled about it once or twice over the years. However, her city, Samville, needs bikes, and people there care little about pollution, hence Maude preoccupies herself gossiping about more sensational things. That is, until the day that Thomas Bugle, a gruff tycoon, takes over ownership of Sam Inc. Maude and Bugle detest each other. Both would sell their souls to undermine the other, even a little bit. With Bugle coming into possession of Sam Inc., Maude thinks to herself, "Perhaps I can harm Bugle by gossiping about all the pollution Sam Inc. creates." But she quickly realizes: "No, I can't do this. Bugle is doing exactly as the previous owners of Sam Inc. did--my friends Bob, Greg, and Barry. I always looked the other way, even supported them at times, when it came to the operation of Sam Inc. If I condemn Bugle on that basis, everyone will dismiss me as a hypocrite." Hence Maude bides her time, waging war on Bugle in other ways, until finally an opportunity presents itself. A boy in Samville, Johnny Khash, while riding a defective bike made by Sam Inc., loses a wheel, crashes, strikes his head, and dies. Maude can barely contain her excitement. "Sam Inc.'s bikes are killing us!" She proclaims in the streets. "Bugle's bikes kill children!" She shouts from the rooftops. "Remember Johnny!" She weeps in the midst of great crowds built up around her, "Will your child be next?" Within weeks, all of Samville is abuzz about little Johnny and the dangers of rocks and biking. "Down with Sam Inc.!" The mob cries. "Down with Bugle!" Nigel, a visitor to the city, looks on with disbelief. "People of Samville," he asks. "You wail and agonize over Johnny, but if defective products is what concerns you, do you not know that other factories in Samville kill far more children than Sam Inc. with defective products?" And they answer him, "We know this!"
He asks, "Do you not know that the pollution from Sam Inc. has killed millions? So many souls as to make the toll of defects insignificant by comparison." And they answer him, "We know this!"
"Do you not know that Bugle is doing no differently than any of his many predecessors?" And they answer him, "We know this!" "Then why," Nigel asks, "are you stirred up into an angry mob by Maude McMedia, who knows these same things? Why were you not an angry mob a year ago? Five years ago? Ten years ago?" And no one can answer him. "If you knew and cared about the millions killed by Sam Inc., why do you obsess only over Johnny--the one boy Maude has told you matters--and speak not a word about the millions of others?" And no one can answer him, except to say, "We're a mob, and the mob needs an icon it can touch and feel." Nigel tells them, "You are indeed a mob. And are you not being manipulated by Maude for her own ends?" This supposition infuriates the citizens of Samville, who delight to think of themselves as objective, sophisticated people, not an angry mob that can be switched on and off by the likes of Maude McMedia. "How dare you criticize us!" They cry, "We care about the millions dead. We're not ignorant of Sam Inc. Maude has no power over us, to blind us, distract us, and lead us into crusades against her foes. Besides, you're not perfect yourself."
Hence Nigel leaves Samville. But what is he to think? Should he believe the citizens' words, or should he judge them by their behaviour, both past and present? What would you do?
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Nov 26, 2018 13:05:08 GMT -5
I'd get a skateboard.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 26, 2018 13:53:18 GMT -5
10 hours ago Virgil Showlion said:
"This coming from a poster who:
...has never once mentioned Saudi Arabia in 8 years of political discussion except in one of three contexts: 1) the "Trump loves the Saudis" thread (discussing the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, 28 posts in all by you), the "horse face" thread (wherein you accuse Pres. Trump of distracting from the Khashoggi affair), the "Nikki Haley resigns" thread (discussing Jamal Khashoggi--you may be noticing a pattern here), ..., 2) the "Saudi Arabia executes 47" thread from 2016, wherein you somehow manage to discuss Pres. Trump, the ACA, the US Congress, and absolutely nothing related to Saudi Arabia in spite of the thread topic, and 3) the "Saudi Arabia living in the Middle Ages" thread from 2015, where you repeatedly challenge the notion that the US can, should, or will do anything to end injustice in Saudi Arabia (see #2 below)."
Virgil, have you ever been diagnosed with OCD? This is reminiscent of you busily going through years of my posts, and saying "You have made 1,854 posts about religion. 74% of those posts were negative, while only 22% were positive. 4% were neutral." Who the hell does that? The numbers are only estimates, because I'm not crazy.
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