OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:57:32 GMT -5
Ok, now we only have the bad guys and police that have weapons,,,, How long did it take for the police to enter the room of the Las Vegas shooter? If he had not "offed" himself, he still had 1600 rounds of ammo left! In this man case, he still had lots of guns in the car, What would make some of the posters here think he was done,, He may have just been starting! Again, He had broke many laws before the shooting ever started. Have as many weapons as your little heart desires. I call BS on the idea that you, or any other average Joe gun owner would be able to do anything to stop or halt a situation like this. People who recieve regular combat training as part of their jobs still make mistakes when faced with the same situation in reality. How we behave in controlled situation is often very different than how we behave when faced with reality. What makes you think you'd be BETTER than professionals who train to face these situations? What experience do you have that gives you the idea that if only you were there in the church pews you would have risen up and stopped the bad guys before they got off a single round? Are you also packing an automatic weapon? How are you going to get off your perfect kill shot while he's spraying bullets and people are running around in panic? Point being you don't know. You have the luxury right now if sitting at your computer and coming up with the perfect scene. In reality you have no idea what you'd do, none of us do. The idea that mass shootings could be solved simply by arming more people is a fallacy. I do have some what of an idea on the subject, I have sent a more rounds down range than most cops. I have already used a gun to defend myself! I have also used a framing ax twice, only by pure luck of having it with me to avoid and attack! And one time a three ft. piece of all thread kept me killed or seriously injured.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 6, 2017 10:58:21 GMT -5
The took credit for Vegas within hours.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 6, 2017 11:00:43 GMT -5
I asked DH how much do you want to bet ISIS takes credit? They have to be eating this up because they don't have to actually do anything to inspire terror, they just wait to hear the latest news from America and say "Yep, we're responsible for that". This may be the only "upside" to the lone wolf/mental health claim that accompanies the white guys' shooting sprees: it does not give ISIS a free claim to fame. But that is also true if we find a way to stop these horrors from happening in the first place.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 11:04:18 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 11:06:07 GMT -5
We need to change the mentality in this country. 1. Gun mentality 2. Cheapness of life mentality 3. Mental health and treatment mentality Look what happens when we look away from all three. i think there is a cultural issue here, as well. there is an IDEA that arguments can/should be settled with guns. it is a really stupid idea.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 11:07:29 GMT -5
yes, very true - but it seems like post-9/11, you can only be a terrorist if you are not white and were not born here. the Boston Bomber was born here. but his parents weren't. and he was a scary moooslimb.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 11:22:34 GMT -5
Moose lambs.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 11:25:09 GMT -5
Maybe he was a radical moose lamb ... he did have a gun ... hmmmm.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 6, 2017 11:32:51 GMT -5
Um...I made one post here. Not sure why that is "persisting" anything.
I believe the problem has many separate issues and this is one of them.
Its something I remember you bringing up in another mass shooting thread, probably Las Vegas and I think others. I'm not good at the search function and lazy, so what turned up on my initial try is old. So yes in my opinion, this is a view you persist in holding with little evidence IMO to actually support it. You are not the only one who believes this, but I think it is not a motivating factor for almost all US mass shooters. Your mileage and beliefs obviously vary.
ymam.proboards.com/post/928739
Well? We've never tried NOT doing it so there isn't any evidence to support that it doesn't work either. If we try it and it doesn't work, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong. I will not say YMMV because I think saying that is silly. We aren't cars. Obviously, our opinions are different.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 6, 2017 11:39:33 GMT -5
By the time the shooter was engaged by the neighbor with a rifle, the shooter had already left the church heading for his vehicle. He took some shots at neighbors who had come out of their houses, but the majority of the damage had already been done. You're burying facts, mmhmm. Nah. I just bothered to read what's been reported from more than one source. Bad habit of mine ...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 6, 2017 11:44:26 GMT -5
Smart move on the part of the two citizens to keep in touch with LEOs and share information. Thanks for sharing that, VB. I hadn't seen that report.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 6, 2017 11:56:19 GMT -5
My husband has active shooter education and drills at his job. He has been told multiple times, very strongly, that if you are in an active shooter situation, and you grab your gun to help and law enforcement comes around the corner and sees you, they will shoot to kill.
Just an FYI.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 6, 2017 12:02:11 GMT -5
yes, very true - but it seems like post-9/11, you can only be a terrorist if you are not white and were not born here. the Boston Bomber was born here. but his parents weren't. and he was a scary moooslimb. no, he wasn't. he just became a naturalized citizen, unlike his brother.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 6, 2017 12:04:20 GMT -5
... Langendorff wove his truck at high-speed through traffic while trying to catch the fleeing car. The speedometer crossed 95 mph ... I would say this hero was a lucky man. That could have gone bad in an instant.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 6, 2017 14:30:13 GMT -5
OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
Since we are going to "play",,,, How many people died from drinking Kool Aid, in a certain situation? If you are going to kill, there are lots of ways to kill. Jonestown happened 40 years ago, and it was suicides. That being said, the US leads the world in gun-related homicides and mass shootings.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 6, 2017 14:37:28 GMT -5
We know this was a personal dispute that the shooter escalated to a super violent level. Trump states this is a mental health problem. History of domestic violence is documented.
Now, can we please talk about how we as a country treat people with not only documented mental illness, but also people who don't have the emotional skills to deal with stress and problems that fall in the normal range?
Nope, let's just cut funding for mental health treatment and whine about guns. #fail
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 14:39:49 GMT -5
People who will beat up animals IMO will beat up on humans as well. www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/11/06/who-is-devin-patrick-kelley-gunman-who-officials-say-killed-churchgoers-in-sutherland-springs/?utm_term=.1a51604cd07e Earlier that year, he was charged with a misdemeanor count of mistreatment, neglect or cruelty to animals in El Paso County, Colo., where he lived at one point, records show.
On Aug. 1, 2014, sheriff’s deputies responded to a call of a man who was punching a dog, police records show. Four witnesses told deputies that they saw a man matching Kelley’s description yelling at and chasing a white and brown Husky.
“The suspect then started beating on the dog with both fists, punching it in the head and chest,” a deputy wrote in the incident report. “He could hear the suspect yelling at the dog and while he was striking it, the dog was yelping and whining. The suspect then picked up the dog by the neck into the air and threw it onto the ground and then drug him away to lot 60.”
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 15:15:30 GMT -5
We know this was a personal dispute that the shooter escalated to a super violent level. Trump states this is a mental health problem. History of domestic violence is documented. Now, can we please talk about how we as a country treat people with not only documented mental illness, but also people who don't have the emotional skills to deal with stress and problems that fall in the normal range? Nope, let's just cut funding for mental health treatment and whine about guns. #fail I think its important to note his issues do not appear to fall into the usual DSM mental health area. This is usual human fringe behavior of men (usually) who can't cope with what's going on in their lives. This is not something to be addressed by psychoactive drugs. This is something that might be addressed by a culture shift and counseling. However, a huge cultural shift would need to occur to encourage men to seek support when they are plagued with unreasoning anger.
We as a society teach men to hold it in and not reach out. There's a reason more men than women snap in domestic disagreements and lash out. The surprising thing about this particular incident is it might be the guy went on a tear to get MIL and she wasn't even at church. When some people get enraged they don't care about collateral damage. This is more about coping skills, traditional masculine behavior and other stuff. MO.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Nov 6, 2017 16:27:28 GMT -5
As a survivor of domestic abuse, it seems to me this guy had a personal vendetta against his ex wife and MIL, due to his abuse of the wife, which got him some pretty serious trouble, and he probably saw himself as the victim, not his ex. After all, he's the one who was dishonorably discharged, and had to spend time in a military prison. Nevermind that he abused her and possibly the child. In the abusers mind, its never their fault. His life was probably ruined because of the abuse incident(s), and he was holding his ex wife and her mother responsible for it. Guy had some serious problems, and I'm not even sure mental health resources could have helped him. I think he was just a bad egg.
Also, I'm coming very close to never leaving my house again.
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engineerdoe
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Post by engineerdoe on Nov 6, 2017 17:03:23 GMT -5
This guy received a dishonorable discharge from the military in 2014. Accordingly, and as I interpret it, he was not legally able to possess or own a firearm. What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Dishonorable Discharge and NFA FirearmsThe dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun). A person who is convicted of a crime that is punishable by imprisonment for more than one year ( including a dishonorable discharge) is prohibited from possessing a firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), a felon who is found guilty of gun possession may serve up to 10 years in prison. If you have been convicted of a felony or a dishonorable discharge, be careful of constructive possession. You could be guilty of being in possession of a firearm if your spouse or another family or household member has a firearm that you “could” access. Dishonorable Discharge and NFA Firearms The news recanted the dishonorable discharge and listed it as the actual bad-conduct discharge it was and it isn't exactly considered a felony. According to Texas gun laws he was allowed to purchase guns but was not allowed to carry a handgun out of his house (open or concealed). There is no requirement to have a license to carry a long gun which I believe was what he used. In Texas, 5 years after conviction of Domestic Assault you are able to purchase guns. This is why we should have a Federal law and need leave it up to individual states. And by having a Federal gun law only also opens up the ability to introduce a law allowing gun owners to carry from state to state.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2017 17:38:15 GMT -5
This guy received a dishonorable discharge from the military in 2014. Accordingly, and as I interpret it, he was not legally able to possess or own a firearm. What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Dishonorable Discharge and NFA FirearmsThe dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun). A person who is convicted of a crime that is punishable by imprisonment for more than one year ( including a dishonorable discharge) is prohibited from possessing a firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), a felon who is found guilty of gun possession may serve up to 10 years in prison. If you have been convicted of a felony or a dishonorable discharge, be careful of constructive possession. You could be guilty of being in possession of a firearm if your spouse or another family or household member has a firearm that you “could” access. Dishonorable Discharge and NFA Firearms The news recanted the dishonorable discharge and listed it as the actual bad-conduct discharge it was and it isn't exactly considered a felony. According to Texas gun laws he was allowed to purchase guns but was not allowed to carry a handgun out of his house (open or concealed). There is no requirement to have a license to carry a long gun which I believe was what he used. In Texas, 5 years after conviction of Domestic Assault you are able to purchase guns. This is why we should have a Federal law and need leave it up to individual states. And by having a Federal gun law only also opens up the ability to introduce a law allowing gun owners to carry from state to state. Then federal firearms laws need to be amended to include Bad Conduct Discharge which involves domestic violence. That, or the military code of law should change conviction of domestic violence via court martial from a bad conduct discharge to dishonorable discharge. This guy should never, ever, had access to firearms. He was a tragedy just waiting to happen.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2017 17:40:17 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 18:18:36 GMT -5
the Boston Bomber was born here. but his parents weren't. and he was a scary moooslimb. no, he wasn't. he just became a naturalized citizen, unlike his brother. really? i misremembered that? shit. how old was he when he came here? what about the DC Sniper?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 6, 2017 18:27:45 GMT -5
no, he wasn't. he just became a naturalized citizen, unlike his brother. really? i misremembered that? shit. how old was he when he came here? what about the DC Sniper? Wiki says he was 8 when he came here. I don't remember what I heard in the news back at the time, but that sounds about right. he definitely wasn't in HS yet when he got here. edit - this is for Boston. I have no idea about the DC sniper.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2017 18:29:31 GMT -5
no, he wasn't. he just became a naturalized citizen, unlike his brother. really? i misremembered that? shit. how old was he when he came here? what about the DC Sniper? The older guy who was executed for the crimes was born in Louisiana. The younger guy, who was seventeen at the time of the killing spree, was born in Jamaica..
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 19:29:21 GMT -5
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 21:13:21 GMT -5
... Langendorff wove his truck at high-speed through traffic while trying to catch the fleeing car. The speedometer crossed 95 mph ... I would say this hero was a lucky man. That could have gone bad in an instant. Yes, it is a shame that these two cowboys took it on to themselves, first for one of them to shoot the shooter, follow him in contact with police, endangering the general public!!!!!!!!!!
Thank God we still have men like this!!! Instead of weak kneed liberals, For all you weak kneed liberals out there, the proper position for you to take in a mass shooting, is Kneel down, grab your knees, kiss your ass good bye!
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Nov 6, 2017 22:12:35 GMT -5
OC that comment was uncalled for.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 22:22:32 GMT -5
OC that comment was uncalled for. And a lie. They did take off instead of trying to assist the injured and dying, correct?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2017 23:52:55 GMT -5
... Langendorff wove his truck at high-speed through traffic while trying to catch the fleeing car. The speedometer crossed 95 mph ... I would say this hero was a lucky man. That could have gone bad in an instant. Yes, it is a shame that these two cowboys took it on to themselves, first for one of them to shoot the shooter, follow him in contact with police, endangering the general public!!!!!!!!!!
Thank God we still have men like this!!! Instead of weak kneed liberals, For all you weak kneed liberals out there, the proper position for you to take in a mass shooting, is Kneel down, grab your knees, kiss your ass good bye! How can you grab your knees if you are kneeling?
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