Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 5, 2017 20:14:30 GMT -5
What's the answer?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 5, 2017 20:36:54 GMT -5
OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
24 people? You know that he would not have continued killing if he hadnt exchanged gunfire with the Good Sam with the gun? That answer was based on simple math. Approx. 50 people present, 26 dead, at most 24 more people would have been killed. Maybe Chiver's answer doesn't look so bad if you take this into account. You are welcome
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2017 20:44:11 GMT -5
A local citizen WITH A RIFLE enagaged him and then he fled. Make sure you bury this inconvenient FACT. Yes, facts. The shooting in the church was already over. The shooter was exiting the building when confronted by a man with a firearm. He crossed the street and started firing a Ruger AR rifle at the church, and continued after entering the building. As he left, he was confronted by an armed resident who chased him. A short time later, the suspect was found dead in his vehicle at the county line, Martin said. There were several weapons inside. 26 killed in church attack in Texas' worst mass shooting
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Nov 5, 2017 21:00:44 GMT -5
What gun law would have atopped him? The one we had that expired that banned AR15's and large clips. It takes one or two shots to kill Bambi and you can't carry that rifle around for protection.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 5, 2017 21:04:00 GMT -5
By the time the shooter was engaged by the neighbor with a rifle, the shooter had already left the church heading for his vehicle. He took some shots at neighbors who had come out of their houses, but the majority of the damage had already been done.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 5, 2017 21:04:59 GMT -5
24 people? You know that he would not have continued killing if he hadnt exchanged gunfire with the Good Sam with the gun? That answer was based on simple math. Approx. 50 people present, 26 dead, at most 24 more people would have been killed. Maybe Chiver's answer doesn't look so bad if you take this into account. You are welcome There were people outside the church. Sheesh.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2017 21:05:32 GMT -5
By the time the shooter was engaged by the neighbor with a rifle, the shooter had already left the church heading for his vehicle. He took some shots at neighbors who had come out of their houses, but the majority of the damage had already been done. You're burying facts, mmhmm.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 5, 2017 21:07:18 GMT -5
He could have walked around shooting, you dont know. Wow.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 5, 2017 21:08:11 GMT -5
By the time the shooter was engaged by the neighbor with a rifle, the shooter had already left the church heading for his vehicle. He took some shots at neighbors who had come out of their houses, but the majority of the damage had already been done. Took some shots....
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ken a.k.a OMK
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They killed Kenny, the bastards.
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Nov 5, 2017 21:08:20 GMT -5
The point of carry laws is to carry. Everywhere Like the wild wild west. Everyone can shoot at each other. The good guys wear white hats. I'm sure you are well trained on when and how to use your gun? Never mind it's a rhetorical question.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 5, 2017 21:12:30 GMT -5
By the time the shooter was engaged by the neighbor with a rifle, the shooter had already left the church heading for his vehicle. He took some shots at neighbors who had come out of their houses, but the majority of the damage had already been done. Took some shots.... Yes, Shooby. He took some shots outside the church. 24 of the victims were found inside the church. 2 were found outside. Dude was heading for his car when a neighbor took a shot at him. The neighbor was in his yard. There were other neighbors outside their homes but there aren't but a few homes in the area. The majority of the damage the shooter wished to do had already been done. Apparently, some of the neighbors got into their cars and pursued the shooter but that hasn't been confirmed; nor, has it been confirmed whether the shooter shot himself or someone else put him out of everyone's misery.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Nov 5, 2017 21:14:25 GMT -5
You know how much damage he "wished to do"?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2017 21:33:24 GMT -5
You know how much damage he "wished to do"? I imagine he accomplished everything he "wished to do" inside the church. After all, he was done and leaving the building.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Nov 5, 2017 21:35:56 GMT -5
As far as I know members of my church are allowed to carry and I personally know a few that do. Not that it would actually help.and why is that?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Nov 5, 2017 21:50:08 GMT -5
You know how much damage he "wished to do"? Not difficult to figure he'd done all the damage he wished to do at that location since he left the church and was heading for his vehicle leaving 24 dead bodies behind him. Now, did he wish to do damage somewhere else? That's something we'll never know. Additional firearms were found in the vehicle. To know more, we'll have to wait for more information to surface.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 5, 2017 22:07:35 GMT -5
What gun law would have atopped him? The one we had that expired that banned AR15's and large clips. It takes one or two shots to kill Bambi and you can't carry that rifle around for protection. this law did not prohibit Americans from owning semi-automatic weapons;1 it capped how many military features an individual gun could have. During the ban, a semi-automatic rifle like the AR-15 could legally have any one of the following features, as long as it didn’t have two or more of them: a folding stock (making the gun slightly easier to conceal), a pistol grip (making the weapon easier to hold and use), a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor (making it harder to see where shots are coming from), or a grenade launcher.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 5, 2017 22:17:26 GMT -5
OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
Since he ignored Laws Against Murder you really think he's gonna listen to any gun laws? Sure This isn't actually a good argument since most shootings are with guns obtained legally. Las Vegas and Orlando - guns obtained legally. So, in fact, a lot of murderers seem to follow gun laws....they just don't follow homicide laws.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2017 22:36:58 GMT -5
This guy received a dishonorable discharge from the military in 2014. Accordingly, and as I interpret it, he was not legally able to possess or own a firearm. What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Dishonorable Discharge and NFA FirearmsThe dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun). A person who is convicted of a crime that is punishable by imprisonment for more than one year ( including a dishonorable discharge) is prohibited from possessing a firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), a felon who is found guilty of gun possession may serve up to 10 years in prison. If you have been convicted of a felony or a dishonorable discharge, be careful of constructive possession. You could be guilty of being in possession of a firearm if your spouse or another family or household member has a firearm that you “could” access. Dishonorable Discharge and NFA Firearms
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 5, 2017 23:49:40 GMT -5
Saw this on Facebook:
"Mass shooting in US checklist":
1. Send thoughts & prayers but not actually do anything useful✔
2. Argue over semantics of the term "assault rifle"✔
3. Trolls blame either the Left or the Right✔
4. Argue over semantics of the term "terrorist" - if Muslim, use it, if Christian use term, "mentally ill" ✔
5. Media goes berserk until attention is diverted by next horrible story✔
6. Congress does nothing but NRA increases donations just in case ✔
7. Wait for next one, repeat✔
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 6, 2017 0:28:34 GMT -5
In Reading the responses to this thread something jumped out at me: some people's first reaction was "that's why I always carry a gun". Nothing new there, but how do we know whether none of the people in church were carrying guns? I don't think that is normally addressed? I am not talking about putting blame on the victims here. I am just curious whether this would go toward our understanding of how much, if at all, carrying a gun would improve safety. Now if someone walks into church and starts shooting and the first bullet has your name on it, your gun is obviously going to be pretty useless. But what if you can actually pull your weapon ? Do you imagine that the other people in church are just staying quietly in their seats while you take aim? Hat if they are running aroung in a panic? Are you going to shoot independent of the risk of killing the people you are trying to save? Or will you just blast away because you are only in it for yourself? Can you live with knowing that you killed a five year old who, but for your actions, might have survived? Only in the old John Wayne movies do the good guys win and does the guy in the black hat die. They did get to retake any scene that did not turn out quite right the first time. Real life does not provide that opportunity.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 2:19:38 GMT -5
OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
Since he ignored Laws Against Murder you really think he's gonna listen to any gun laws? Sure I didn't say anything about gun laws. The base issue is people, generally men, who decide violence to others is an answer.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 2:28:59 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 6, 2017 5:55:09 GMT -5
According to KHOU Channel 11 News, the shooting took place around 11:15 p.m. at a Valero gas station in north Houston. Police officials say that two men jumped the owner of a Chevrolet pickup truck and absconded with his vehicle. As the men struggled with the car-owner, a passerby produced a gun and fired multiple shots, missing the thieves but striking the victim in the head. The shooter quickly gathered up his shell casings from the pavement and fled the scene. www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-with-a-gun-shoots-carjacking-victim-in-head-then-runs-away/
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 6, 2017 5:59:34 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 6:17:24 GMT -5
As far as I know members of my church are allowed to carry and I personally know a few that do. Not that it would actually help.and why is that? Ask the guys in Las Vegas? This shooting happened in less than a minute didn’t it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 6:20:25 GMT -5
This guy received a dishonorable discharge from the military in 2014. Accordingly, and as I interpret it, he was not legally able to possess or own a firearm. What we know about the Texas church shooting suspect Dishonorable Discharge and NFA FirearmsThe dishonorable discharge is based on a general court-martial conviction. This means the conviction is a felony, regardless of what the underlying offense may have been. The convicted felon is banned from possessing a firearm including Title II Firearms (a Silencer, SBR, SBS, AOW, or Machine Gun). A person who is convicted of a crime that is punishable by imprisonment for more than one year ( including a dishonorable discharge) is prohibited from possessing a firearm. Under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), a felon who is found guilty of gun possession may serve up to 10 years in prison. If you have been convicted of a felony or a dishonorable discharge, be careful of constructive possession. You could be guilty of being in possession of a firearm if your spouse or another family or household member has a firearm that you “could” access. Dishonorable Discharge and NFA Firearms I guess we wait. But none of this means it wasn’t a gun someone obtained legally. These should be off the market.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2017 6:24:44 GMT -5
As per that article.. 26 Dead 20 injured... so he got just about everyone.
And again a history of domestic abuse.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 6:50:21 GMT -5
Anyone see an article which states whether he was a member of this congregation or not?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 8:54:51 GMT -5
But for the citizen with the rifle, how many more would be dead? OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
Since we are going to "play",,,, How many people died from drinking Kool Aid, in a certain situation? If you are going to kill, there are lots of ways to kill.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 9:19:51 GMT -5
The point of carry laws is to carry. Everywhere Like the wild wild west. Everyone can shoot at each other. The good guys wear white hats. I'm sure you are well trained on when and how to use your gun? Never mind it's a rhetorical question. Ken, How do you know the amount of training some one has had?
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