Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 6, 2017 9:31:27 GMT -5
I cannot any longer accept AR-15's or any other semi-automatic weapon as being an acceptable legal weapon. Outlawing big capacity magazines will not make a difference. Make the weapons illegal, but then you will have a couple of hundred thousand citizens who will be in violation of the law, and be labeled a common criminal. I guess it does not really matter because we have a couple of million or so citizens in states where pistols, rifles, and automatic weapons that are not legal to own, but nothing happens to them either.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 9:32:22 GMT -5
OK, I'll play. A max of 24 more people could have been killed. Now how many people would still be alive if the guy didn't show up with a gun or show up at all? 50
I'd rather focus on trying to have fewer incidents than hoping or believing having a gun is going to mitigate the damage. Because basically then your narrative becomes not that these incidents will stop, just that hopefully people with guns will make it less bad. Did you read about the shooting in the Denver Walmart yet?
Since we are going to "play",,,, How many people died from drinking Kool Aid, in a certain situation? If you are going to kill, there are lots of ways to kill. Given Shooby asked me about a shooting situation this is at best a case of what about ... . Alert me though, when someone storms through a crowd and forces them to drink Koolaid to kill them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 6, 2017 9:36:25 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of the 'Oh if only a good guy had pulled his gun!" argument.
Police and military recieve constant firearms training. Yet in high stress situations they have managed to shoot the wrong person. Ever heard the term "Friendly fire"?
I am hard pressed to believe that when trained professionals in a crisis situation shoot innocent people that your average Joe is such an excellent shot that he can aim, hit and kill the shooter before he kills other people AND not hit any of the bystanders that are going to be running around in the chaos.
Now throw in multiple people pulling their weapons and opening fire. Are you telling me you are so skilled and well trained that you will be able to calmly figure out from your position which of those bullets is the killer and manage to hit him AND avoid possibly being killed by someone who can't clearly see and assumes that you are the one shooting everyone?
People watch too much TV. You have no idea how you'd actually react or how well you would perform.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 6, 2017 10:04:54 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 10:07:20 GMT -5
I'm so sick of all these shootings, but have no idea what to do to stop the crazy. I do know that my fear of crowds has increased 10 fold and all I want to do is stay in the house. Unfortunately that will not stop them and it means that I've given the shooters power over me. well, we handle mental health issues very poorly in the US. that would be a good place to start.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 10:11:41 GMT -5
But for the citizen with the rifle, how many more would be dead? given that he fled, i am guessing approximately zero.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 10:15:30 GMT -5
The one we had that expired that banned AR15's and large clips. It takes one or two shots to kill Bambi and you can't carry that rifle around for protection. this law did not prohibit Americans from owning semi-automatic weapons;1 it capped how many military features an individual gun could have. During the ban, a semi-automatic rifle like the AR-15 could legally have any one of the following features, as long as it didn’t have two or more of them: a folding stock (making the gun slightly easier to conceal), a pistol grip (making the weapon easier to hold and use), a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor (making it harder to see where shots are coming from), or a grenade launcher. thanks. so, a MORE STRICT law is what ken was suggesting, i believe. he WRONGLY assumed that the existing law made sense.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:17:43 GMT -5
Since we are going to "play",,,, How many people died from drinking Kool Aid, in a certain situation? If you are going to kill, there are lots of ways to kill. Given Shooby asked me about a shooting situation this is at best a case of what about ... . Alert me though, when someone storms through a crowd and forces them to drink Koolaid to kill them. Ok Opt4ft, what is your solution, If we are going to kill there some many ways to do it, We can poison a whole bunch with Koolaid, Park a truck with fertilizer in front of a building, or rent a home Depot truck. I ask this without wanting to get into a long draw out debate.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 10:22:36 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of the 'Oh if only a good guy had pulled his gun!" argument. Police and military recieve constant firearms training. Yet in high stress situations they have managed to shoot the wrong person. Ever heard the term "Friendly fire"? I am hard pressed to believe that when trained professionals in a crisis situation shoot innocent people that your average Joe is such an excellent shot that he can aim, hit and kill the shooter before he kills other people AND not hit any of the bystanders that are going to be running around in the chaos. Now throw in multiple people pulling their weapons and opening fire. Are you telling me you are so skilled and well trained that you will be able to calmly figure out from your position which of those bullets is the killer and manage to hit him AND avoid possibly being killed by someone who can't clearly see and assumes that you are the one shooting everyone? People watch too much TV. You have no idea how you'd actually react or how well you would perform. i was having a long discussion with another gun owner last night about this exact thing. the assumption of using guns for a home break-in is that it will be readily at hand. but in order to do that, it can't be in a locked case where children can't get at it. it has to literally be at bedside. so, safely storing a weapon and using it for safety are actually at odds with one another. and if it is NOT at bedside, you are FAR more likely to get injured by a gun than if you didn't own it. there is a mythology about how guns protect people that is quite at odds with reality.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 6, 2017 10:23:48 GMT -5
I wish we could figure out a balance between what people need to know and how much is constantly reported. I really feel these people are looking for their 15 minutes - whether they are insane or just evil. In their sick minds, they see the press the other killers get and maybe that's the only time in their entire lives they get attention. Maybe if we stopped giving these people their 15 minutes - going out in a blaze of glory - all that stuff....maybe it would help. I don't know. I know laws don't help. This guy wasn't supposed to have weapons and he had them anyway. I'd be finding out how he got them. And whomever gave/sold them to him would never see daylight as a free person again.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 6, 2017 10:25:26 GMT -5
To create a culture where people who need help through a problem are given it, not told to suck it up. Help our citizens learn to work through problems without getting to the point where an awesome answer is to kill a bunch of people. To educate all of us to notice the signs of a break in ourselves and in people around us, and give everyone the resources they need to prevent this kind of activity. Fox news said his ex-in-laws were members of the church. Maybe this one is personal, with a shit-ton of collateral damage.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 6, 2017 10:25:30 GMT -5
so is this guy a terrorist... or nah?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 6, 2017 10:27:05 GMT -5
Well, that seems to be resolved -> another confused white male, so let us just all pray since there is nothing that can be done about it anyway, right? And before the anti-gun control people start in with "this is not the time" pray tell me when IS the right time? And why do you assume that putting sensible gun controls in place means that people who advocate for that want to come and take your guns away? Did I call it or what? dt called it a "mental health problem" and a "little early to talk about guns". Are we sure an actual man was elected to the WH and not a robocall?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 10:27:14 GMT -5
Given Shooby asked me about a shooting situation this is at best a case of what about ... . Alert me though, when someone storms through a crowd and forces them to drink Koolaid to kill them. Ok Opt4ft, what is your solution, If we are going to kill there some many ways to do it, We can poison a whole bunch with Koolaid, Park a truck with fertilizer in front of a building, or rent a home Depot truck. I ask this without wanting to get into a long draw out debate. There is no one fits all easy quick solution. I think what needs to happen is it becomes more and more socially unacceptable to act out and kill others. If people are sufficiently depressed or in the throes of something it is unlikely to help, but anything to move to a culture of fixing your own issues or exit yourself versus society being OK with blaming others. And frankly right now in the US that's unlikely to happen. Trump is a symptom of the 'its not my fault' culture that's gotten more and more toxic.
We need to change our thinking to save lives. While suicide is an issue, I think it needs to become far more socially acceptable to do instead of killing & blaming others. It would probably help if organizations could spring up to help others who are lost in their lives and/or upset with their progress. Not really mental health, but solution oriented places to support people plus give them plans to move forward. Solutions and support.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 6, 2017 10:27:57 GMT -5
so is this guy a terrorist... or nah? if he is white and not a muslim? no. he is a lone wolf and a nut. if he is black and a muslim? yes. you're welcome.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 6, 2017 10:28:45 GMT -5
We are Merica. Odds are it won't be you but still make sure you kiss your loved ones each time before either of you walk out a door.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:28:54 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of the 'Oh if only a good guy had pulled his gun!" argument. Police and military recieve constant firearms training. Yet in high stress situations they have managed to shoot the wrong person. Ever heard the term "Friendly fire"? I am hard pressed to believe that when trained professionals in a crisis situation shoot innocent people that your average Joe is such an excellent shot that he can aim, hit and kill the shooter before he kills other people AND not hit any of the bystanders that are going to be running around in the chaos. Now throw in multiple people pulling their weapons and opening fire. Are you telling me you are so skilled and well trained that you will be able to calmly figure out from your position which of those bullets is the killer and manage to hit him AND avoid possibly being killed by someone who can't clearly see and assumes that you are the one shooting everyone? People watch too much TV. You have no idea how you'd actually react or how well you would perform. Ok, now we only have the bad guys and police that have weapons,,,, How long did it take for the police to enter the room of the Las Vegas shooter? If he had not "offed" himself, he still had 1600 rounds of ammo left! In this man case, he still had lots of guns in the car, What would make some of the posters here think he was done,, He may have just been starting! Again, He had broke many laws before the shooting ever started.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 10:32:39 GMT -5
I wish we could figure out a balance between what people need to know and how much is constantly reported. I really feel these people are looking for their 15 minutes - whether they are insane or just evil. In their sick minds, they see the press the other killers get and maybe that's the only time in their entire lives they get attention. Maybe if we stopped giving these people their 15 minutes - going out in a blaze of glory - all that stuff....maybe it would help. I don't know. I know laws don't help. This guy wasn't supposed to have weapons and he had them anyway. I'd be finding out how he got them. And whomever gave/sold them to him would never see daylight as a free person again.
Why do you persist in believing its related to fame in any way? Church shooter - dead. Las Vegas shooter - dead. I think for some this is just a more dramatic way to die instead of the easier death by cop.
Now the press coverage does inspire those who were on the fence to be sure. Much like kids act out Wiley Coyote and WWF moves. If we do not cover it, we can not solve it.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:33:45 GMT -5
Well, that seems to be resolved -> another confused white male, so let us just all pray since there is nothing that can be done about it anyway, right? And before the anti-gun control people start in with "this is not the time" pray tell me when IS the right time? And why do you assume that putting sensible gun controls in place means that people who advocate for that want to come and take your guns away? Did I call it or what? dt called it a "mental health problem" and a "little early to talk about guns". Are we sure an actual man was elected to the WH and not a robocall? That's what they want! Too many politicians have said exactly that. That aside, What is your solution?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 6, 2017 10:35:26 GMT -5
so is this guy a terrorist... or nah? if he is white and not a muslim? no. he is a lone wolf and a nut. if he is non-white and a muslim? yes. you're welcome. just checking.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:35:45 GMT -5
We are Merica. Odds are it won't be you but still make sure you kiss your loved ones each time before either of you walk out a door. Yes, they are more likely to die in a car wreck!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Nov 6, 2017 10:37:47 GMT -5
if he is white and not a muslim? no. he is a lone wolf and a nut. if he is non-white and a muslim? yes. you're welcome. just checking. Timothy McVeigh!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Nov 6, 2017 10:38:19 GMT -5
I wish we could figure out a balance between what people need to know and how much is constantly reported. I really feel these people are looking for their 15 minutes - whether they are insane or just evil. In their sick minds, they see the press the other killers get and maybe that's the only time in their entire lives they get attention. Maybe if we stopped giving these people their 15 minutes - going out in a blaze of glory - all that stuff....maybe it would help. I don't know. I know laws don't help. This guy wasn't supposed to have weapons and he had them anyway. I'd be finding out how he got them. And whomever gave/sold them to him would never see daylight as a free person again.
Why do you persist in believing its related to fame in any way? Church shooter - dead. Las Vegas shooter - dead. I think for some this is just a more dramatic way to die instead of the easier death by cop.
Now the press coverage does inspire those who were on the fence to be sure. Much like kids act out Wiley Coyote and WWF moves. If we do not cover it, we can not solve it.
Um...I made one post here. Not sure why that is "persisting" anything.
I believe the problem has many separate issues and this is one of them.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Nov 6, 2017 10:38:43 GMT -5
We need to change the mentality in this country.
1. Gun mentality 2. Cheapness of life mentality 3. Mental health and treatment mentality
Look what happens when we look away from all three.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 6, 2017 10:40:42 GMT -5
Well, that seems to be resolved -> another confused white male, so let us just all pray since there is nothing that can be done about it anyway, right? And before the anti-gun control people start in with "this is not the time" pray tell me when IS the right time? And why do you assume that putting sensible gun controls in place means that people who advocate for that want to come and take your guns away? Did I call it or what? dt called it a "mental health problem" and a "little early to talk about guns". Are we sure an actual man was elected to the WH and not a robocall? It's seems it's always too early and when the time is 'right', no one wants to talk or do anything about it. Just keep prayin' and it will stop I guess.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 6, 2017 10:42:46 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of the 'Oh if only a good guy had pulled his gun!" argument. Police and military recieve constant firearms training. Yet in high stress situations they have managed to shoot the wrong person. Ever heard the term "Friendly fire"? I am hard pressed to believe that when trained professionals in a crisis situation shoot innocent people that your average Joe is such an excellent shot that he can aim, hit and kill the shooter before he kills other people AND not hit any of the bystanders that are going to be running around in the chaos. Now throw in multiple people pulling their weapons and opening fire. Are you telling me you are so skilled and well trained that you will be able to calmly figure out from your position which of those bullets is the killer and manage to hit him AND avoid possibly being killed by someone who can't clearly see and assumes that you are the one shooting everyone? People watch too much TV. You have no idea how you'd actually react or how well you would perform. Ok, now we only have the bad guys and police that have weapons,,,, How long did it take for the police to enter the room of the Las Vegas shooter? If he had not "offed" himself, he still had 1600 rounds of ammo left! In this man case, he still had lots of guns in the car, What would make some of the posters here think he was done,, He may have just been starting! Again, He had broke many laws before the shooting ever started. Have as many weapons as your little heart desires. I call BS on the idea that you, or any other average Joe gun owner would be able to do anything to stop or halt a situation like this. People who recieve regular combat training as part of their jobs still make mistakes when faced with the same situation in reality. How we behave in controlled situation is often very different than how we behave when faced with reality. What makes you think you'd be BETTER than professionals who train to face these situations? What experience do you have that gives you the idea that if only you were there in the church pews you would have risen up and stopped the bad guys before they got off a single round? Are you also packing an automatic weapon? How are you going to get off your perfect kill shot while he's spraying bullets and people are running around in panic? If you are packing an automatic how are you going to control the situation so you hit ONLY the shooter and don't end up killing even more people as you try to "protect" them. Point being you don't know. You have the luxury right now if sitting at your computer and coming up with the perfect scene. In reality you have no idea what you'd do, none of us do. The idea that mass shootings could be solved simply by arming more people is a fallacy.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Nov 6, 2017 10:44:31 GMT -5
yes, very true - but it seems like post-9/11, you can only be a terrorist if you are not white and were not born here.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 6, 2017 10:47:42 GMT -5
I asked DH how much do you want to bet ISIS takes credit? They have to be eating this up because they don't have to actually do anything to inspire terror, they just wait to hear the latest news from America and say "Yep, we're responsible for that".
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 10:49:57 GMT -5
Why do you persist in believing its related to fame in any way? Church shooter - dead. Las Vegas shooter - dead. I think for some this is just a more dramatic way to die instead of the easier death by cop.
Now the press coverage does inspire those who were on the fence to be sure. Much like kids act out Wiley Coyote and WWF moves. If we do not cover it, we can not solve it.
Um...I made one post here. Not sure why that is "persisting" anything.
I believe the problem has many separate issues and this is one of them.
Its something I remember you bringing up in another mass shooting thread, probably Las Vegas and I think others. I'm not good at the search function and lazy, so what turned up on my initial try is old. So yes in my opinion, this is a view you persist in holding with little evidence IMO to actually support it. You are not the only one who believes this, but I think it is not a motivating factor for almost all US mass shooters. Your mileage and beliefs obviously vary.
ymam.proboards.com/post/928739
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Nov 6, 2017 10:53:45 GMT -5
I asked DH how much do you want to bet ISIS takes credit? They have to be eating this up because they don't have to actually do anything to inspire terror, they just wait to hear the latest news from America and say "Yep, we're responsible for that". They probably won't because its a white guy shooting I think white people. I should probably look for a video I found yesterday called Queen of ISIS or some such. She was married to the top American fighting for ISIS. I think many people forget that at least one hundred Americans and countless folks from other sane countries have left home to fight for ISIS. We are lucky they have left and for the most part not become terrorists here. (Her former husband is a white guy FWIW.)
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