Deleted
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DACA
Sept 5, 2017 15:37:28 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 15:37:28 GMT -5
Except London didn't vote for Brexit, did it? Not my point. The people of London have to live with the vote of the remainder of the country just like in the US the people of New York have to live with a president they didn't elect. I'm just noting the parallels between what happened there and what happened here. People who are afraid for their jobs and think that others are taking advantage of government programs vote in predictable ways. I was shocked at the Brexit vote and that was the first time I turned to DH and said, OMG, the media is missing a huge move afoot. Trump could win here. He laughed. Yes, misinformed people who are being manipulated by propoganda and don't actually live where the majority of immmigrants live are making uninformed decisions the whole will be forced to live with... im not denying it. It was my point as well.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 5, 2017 15:44:12 GMT -5
The law of being born in the work place. I commend all of us who were born lucky in the land of the free and a prosperous country. We really had to restrain from breaking the law of wanting safety and a better life for our children. can I ask you an honest question, no snark? where else in the world would you expect to be able to show up and just build a life without paperwork? just join the work force, find a home, build a family. why should that be okay here? My point is that we are all high and mighty about this being "ours" and anyone who isn't one of us is a piece of shit who deserves nothing, and maybe if they go through a horrible, expensive, long process, we might let them become 'one of us' but we will still treat them like shit for at least a generation, but possibly for many generations. We need to be a little less obnoxious about our entitlement, because in reality, they are the same as us - Just born a little to the south, or a lot to the east or whatever. A magic line on some piece of paper shouldn't make us that much better than others - but it sure makes us think we can treat them badly.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Sept 5, 2017 15:55:14 GMT -5
This whole thing is a cr*pload of heartbreaking, heartless and soul-less political posturing that will do nothing but wreak havoc on a whole bunch of not-at-fault kids and young adults. Don John [THAT'S HIS REAL NAME, mods] is *only* doing this because Obama set it up, and it's crystal clear that his *only* agenda is to undo anything with Obama's name or legacy on it. Pure and simple.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 5, 2017 16:03:16 GMT -5
For those who don't care what the U.S. Catholic Church (U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has to say about Trump's desire to end DACA, you can skip this post. For others who might be interested in what the Church had to say, give it a read. USCCB President, Vice President And Committee Chairmen Denounce Administration’s Decision To End DACA And Strongly Urge Congress To Find Legislative Solution"The cancellation of the DACA program is reprehensible. It causes unnecessary fear for DACA youth and their families. These youth entered the U.S. as minors and often know America as their only home. The Catholic Church has long watched with pride and admiration as DACA youth live out their daily lives with hope and a determination to flourish and contribute to society: continuing to work and provide for their families, continuing to serve in the military, and continuing to receive an education. Now, after months of anxiety and fear about their futures, these brave young people face deportation. This decision is unacceptable and does not reflect who we are as Americans. The Church has recognized and proclaimed the need to welcome young people: [Deleted by poster due to Biblical quote.]. Today, our nation has done the opposite of how Scripture calls us to respond. It is a step back from the progress that we need to make as a country. Today's actions represent a heartbreaking moment in our history that shows the absence of mercy and good will, and a short-sighted vision for the future. DACA youth are woven into the fabric of our country and of our Church, and are, by every social and human measure, American youth. We strongly urge Congress to act and immediately resume work toward a legislative solution. We pledge our support to work on finding an expeditious means of protection for DACA youth. As people of faith, we say to DACA youth – regardless of your immigration status, you are children of God and welcome in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church supports you and will advocate for you." USCCB President, Vice President And Committee Chairmen Denounce Administration’s Decision To End DACA And Strongly Urge Congress To Find Legislative Solution
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 5, 2017 18:25:44 GMT -5
can I ask you an honest question, no snark? where else in the world would you expect to be able to show up and just build a life without paperwork? just join the work force, find a home, build a family. why should that be okay here? My point is that we are all high and mighty about this being "ours" and anyone who isn't one of us is a piece of shit who deserves nothing, and maybe if they go through a horrible, expensive, long process, we might let them become 'one of us' but we will still treat them like shit for at least a generation, but possibly for many generations. We need to be a little less obnoxious about our entitlement, because in reality, they are the same as us - Just born a little to the south, or a lot to the east or whatever. A magic line on some piece of paper shouldn't make us that much better than others - but it sure makes us think we can treat them badly. I think that you may have missed some of my other posts on this topic if you think any of that applies to me. but thanks for your honest answer.
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mmhmm
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DACA
Sept 5, 2017 18:26:00 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Sept 5, 2017 18:26:00 GMT -5
This whole thing is a cr*pload of heartbreaking, heartless and soul-less political posturing that will do nothing but wreak havoc on a whole bunch of not-at-fault kids and young adults. Don John [THAT'S HIS REAL NAME, mods] is *only* doing this because Obama set it up, and it's crystal clear that his *only* agenda is to undo anything with Obama's name or legacy on it. Pure and simple. I'm well aware of his name, kittensaver. Just be sure you continue to be aware of it. Shortening Donald to Don is about as far as it's going to be allowed to go. mmhmm, Politics Moderator
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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DACA
Sept 5, 2017 18:28:12 GMT -5
Jaguar likes this
Post by mmhmm on Sept 5, 2017 18:28:12 GMT -5
Don't laugh at me but hopefully Congress will step up and create a humane and permanent solution for the DACA population. I'm not laughing, Anne. I really hope that's what happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 18:53:14 GMT -5
This whole thing is a cr*pload of heartbreaking, heartless and soul-less political posturing that will do nothing but wreak havoc on a whole bunch of not-at-fault kids and young adults. Don John [THAT'S HIS REAL NAME, mods] is *only* doing this because Obama set it up, and it's crystal clear that his *only* agenda is to undo anything with Obama's name or legacy on it. Pure and simple. I'm well aware of his name, kittensaver. Just be sure you continue to be aware of it. Shortening Donald to Don is about as far as it's going to be allowed to go. mmhmm, Politics Moderator Seriously? is a problem?
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Sept 5, 2017 18:58:14 GMT -5
I'm well aware of his name, kittensaver. Just be sure you continue to be aware of it. Shortening Donald to Don is about as far as it's going to be allowed to go. mmhmm, Politics Moderator Seriously? is a problem? Right?
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 5, 2017 18:58:14 GMT -5
Not my point. The people of London have to live with the vote of the remainder of the country just like in the US the people of New York have to live with a president they didn't elect. I'm just noting the parallels between what happened there and what happened here. People who are afraid for their jobs and think that others are taking advantage of government programs vote in predictable ways. I was shocked at the Brexit vote and that was the first time I turned to DH and said, OMG, the media is missing a huge move afoot. Trump could win here. He laughed. Yes, misinformed people who are being manipulated by propoganda and don't actually live where the majority of immmigrants live are making uninformed decisions the whole will be forced to live with... im not denying it. It was my point as well. Or... they're people with different beliefs who are impacted by this issue in different ways than I am and see things differently than I do. I don't personally agree with their assessment but don't necessarily think they're misinformed or stupid. I support immigration in the US and particularly the DACA program. I was shocked by the Brexit decision. But... part of that is probably based on the fact that I'm not as personally and directly impacted by immigration as many Britons or low wage Americans are. None of the immigrants are going to threaten my job or my income directly. The schools my kids go to aren't deluged by students that don't speak English and may not have any education prior to coming to school. So I understand that my view of the issue is very different from the view of someone who feels their job threatened, their kids' schools unable to educate everybody so failing to educate anybody, who doesn't hear English spoken in the stores they shop in. Unlike my British relatives, I'm not paying 45% income tax and over 20% VAT (national sales tax) plus assorted other taxes like the ones that cause gas to be more than $6/gallon, etc only to see large numbers of immigrants arrive to collect welfare benefits. Again, I don't agree with Brexit, I don't agree with the decision to end DACA and I support fairly open immigration to America, including a path for illegal people to become legal. But I understand why others might not and that they might not agree for reasons other than being stupid, misinformed or racist (which was an accusation leveled towards Brexit voters.)
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mmhmm
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Sept 5, 2017 18:58:37 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Sept 5, 2017 18:58:37 GMT -5
I'm well aware of his name, kittensaver. Just be sure you continue to be aware of it. Shortening Donald to Don is about as far as it's going to be allowed to go. mmhmm, Politics Moderator Seriously? is a problem? Yep. The man's name isn't and he doesn't go by . He does use Don. Trivializing his name by giving it a child-like connotation can be considered insulting, just as calling someone who's name is Robert, and who goes by Robert, "Bobby" would very likely not be acceptable to that person.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 5, 2017 20:58:36 GMT -5
Don't laugh at me but hopefully Congress will step up and create a humane and permanent solution for the DACA population. I'm not laughing, I'm crying. There has been nothing that has stood in the way of congress coming up with a humane and permanent solution for this population, but they have done as much about this as about the ACA. Their indifference is plain disgusting.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Sept 6, 2017 10:53:22 GMT -5
I think Trump made the only decision he could ....... put it in the hands of Congress that Obama was too much of a coward to do.
I agree NW ....... and I see Congress sitting on their hands for the next 6 months about this. Trump will have to make the decision.
My question is still the same ......... how many still illegal parents of these 'dreamers' are willing to return to country of origin so their children can stay?
The parents have had many years to change their status and CHOSE not to do it. I don't believe in rewarding this decision.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 6, 2017 11:06:26 GMT -5
I think Trump made the only decision he could ....... put it in the hands of Congress that Obama was too much of a coward to do.I agree NW ....... and I see Congress sitting on their hands for the next 6 months about this. Trump will have to make the decision. My question is still the same ......... how many still illegal parents of these 'dreamers' are willing to return to country of origin so their children can stay? The parents have had many years to change their status and CHOSE not to do it. I don't believe in rewarding this decision. what? Congress hasn't been able to come up with a "solution" to the Immigration issues for over 25 years!! (some of the Dreamers are over 30 yo). It's not like 800,000 'kids" came to America since 2008... many of them (and their parents) have been here for DECADES. Obama actually DID something to move the Immigration issue forward. I'm not sure it was the right thing to do... but it was a first step in actually FORCING (or maybe EASING) the Government into doing something about our immigration laws.
Congress has been sitting on the pot without shitting for DECADES. I just don't think Obama's Administration ever imagined that America would elect a Populist/Nationalist/religiously conservative driven President/Administration.
I strongly suspect the Dreamer's Parents didn't work to change their status BECAUSE of our immigration laws. That's one of the things Congress (as you say) needs to FIX.
Congress isn't going to do anything. DACA will end and nothing will be done. Trump won't do anything. He's already washed his hands of it (and is probably celebrating with his handlers... on their success!)
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Sept 6, 2017 11:10:32 GMT -5
I think Trump made the only decision he could ....... put it in the hands of Congress that Obama was too much of a coward to do.I agree NW ....... and I see Congress sitting on their hands for the next 6 months about this. Trump will have to make the decision. My question is still the same ......... how many still illegal parents of these 'dreamers' are willing to return to country of origin so their children can stay? The parents have had many years to change their status and CHOSE not to do it. I don't believe in rewarding this decision. what? Congress hasn't been able to come up with a "solution" to the Immigration issues for over 25 years!! (some of the Dreamers are over 30 yo). Obama actually DID something to move the Immigration issue forward. I'm not sure it was the right thing to do... but it was a first step in actually FORCING (or maybe EASING) the Government into doing something about our immigration laws.
Congress has been sitting on the pot without shitting for DECADES. I just don't think Obama's Administration ever imagined that America would elect a Populist/Nationalist/religiously conservative driven President/Administration.
I strongly suspect the Dreamer's Parents didn't work to change their status BECAUSE of our immigration laws. That's one of the things Congress (as you say) needs to FIX.
Congress isn't going to do anything. DACA will end and nothing will be done. Trump won't do anything. He's already washed his hands of it (and is probably celebrating with his handlers... on their success!)
Agree. There were multiple initiatives under George W Bush and Obama and nothing was done. Here is an article where they refer to comprehensive reform and nothing came out of it and it will be the same now. www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-now-is-the-time-for-immigration-reform/
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 6, 2017 12:26:45 GMT -5
Obama signed the DACA because Congress couldn't pass any kind of immigration reform legislation.
Sessions is now insisting that the DACA is unconstitutional and he can't defend it, which is why Trump claims he has no choice except to abolish it and hope that Congress finally gets around to making a constitutional legislative fix.
So - Sessions gets to play the big meanie, Trump gets to talk piously about how his 'heart' is with the tragic DACA folks, but in the meantime, pack your shit and deport yourselves.
Not surprising Sessions is champing at the bit to kick these people out. He's previously commented on how we need to not let as many Jews or Italians into the country. I could make a derogatory comment about Alabama and some Alabamians, but I'm sure not all Alabamians are like Sessions, and I don't want to offend the non-racist ones.
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 6, 2017 12:44:44 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2017 12:44:44 GMT -5
What about a compromise?
Calculate the average lifetime deficit per illegal immigrant--projected lifetime government outflows (healthcare, policing, etc.) minus projected inflows (taxes)--as a per-capita cost to society. Suppose it comes to $100K per capita. Present resident illegal aliens with a one-time offer: $100K for citizenship, payable to the government by 2018. If they can secure the capital via loan, crowdfunding, or their own resources, and can pass a citizenship exam, they get to stay. Otherwise they go back whence they came.
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dee27
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Post by dee27 on Sept 6, 2017 13:00:39 GMT -5
Congress is useless when it comes to immigration reform. The members are more worried about their image than passing legislation that will alleviate the problem, thus they pass the problem along to the next set of lazy legislators.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Sept 6, 2017 14:01:14 GMT -5
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 6, 2017 14:01:14 GMT -5
Obama signed the DACA because Congress couldn't pass any kind of immigration reform legislation.
Sessions is now insisting that the DACA is unconstitutional and he can't defend it, which is why Trump claims he has no choice except to abolish it and hope that Congress finally gets around to making a constitutional legislative fix.
So - Sessions gets to play the big meanie, Trump gets to talk piously about how his 'heart' is with the tragic DACA folks, but in the meantime, pack your shit and deport yourselves.
Not surprising Sessions is champing at the bit to kick these people out. He's previously commented on how we need to not let as many Jews or Italians into the country. I could make a derogatory comment about Alabama and some Alabamians, but I'm sure not all Alabamians are like Sessions, and I don't want to offend the non-racist ones.
What's wrong with Italians? Is that the same grudge people used to have against the Irish?
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Tennesseer
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Sept 6, 2017 19:28:42 GMT -5
Post by Tennesseer on Sept 6, 2017 19:28:42 GMT -5
Obama signed the DACA because Congress couldn't pass any kind of immigration reform legislation.
Sessions is now insisting that the DACA is unconstitutional and he can't defend it, which is why Trump claims he has no choice except to abolish it and hope that Congress finally gets around to making a constitutional legislative fix.
So - Sessions gets to play the big meanie, Trump gets to talk piously about how his 'heart' is with the tragic DACA folks, but in the meantime, pack your shit and deport yourselves.
Not surprising Sessions is champing at the bit to kick these people out. He's previously commented on how we need to not let as many Jews or Italians into the country. I could make a derogatory comment about Alabama and some Alabamians, but I'm sure not all Alabamians are like Sessions, and I don't want to offend the non-racist ones.
What's wrong with Italians? Is that the same grudge people used to have against the Irish? Sessions did not directly sat it but implied the Immigration Act of 1924 was a good thing. Jeff Sessions Once Said Restrictions on Jewish and Italian Immigration Were “Good for America” Immigration Act of 1924
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 6, 2017 20:24:23 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 6, 2017 20:24:23 GMT -5
What Mr. Sessions "once said", quoted in the article, doesn't bear the scantest resemblance to the headline. Fake news. (Although Slate is admittedly more a blog than a news outlet.)
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ripvanwinkle
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Sept 6, 2017 20:26:48 GMT -5
Post by ripvanwinkle on Sept 6, 2017 20:26:48 GMT -5
I'm a little puzzled on this program and maybe naive . I did go to a site that gave the requirement to get DACA status. It all seemed pretty straight forward. Not sure why people are worried about it if they have applied for citizenship. And if not, why haven't they. If it's because they have a criminal record, they should be deported.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Sept 6, 2017 20:57:15 GMT -5
I'm a little puzzled on this program and maybe naive . I did go to a site that gave the requirement to get DACA status. It all seemed pretty straight forward. Not sure why people are worried about it if they have applied for citizenship. And if not, why haven't they. If it's because they have a criminal record, they should be deported. DACA is not the same as permanent residency. Enrolling in DACA may get you a social security number and the right to work but it does not put you on a track toward citizenship. Generally speaking, marriage to a US citizen and military service are the most viable ways for a DACA recipient to attain citizenship and the DACA program hasn't been around long enough for folks to have fulfilled the requirements necessary to apply for citizenship on those bases.
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Tennesseer
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Sept 6, 2017 22:35:11 GMT -5
Post by Tennesseer on Sept 6, 2017 22:35:11 GMT -5
What Mr. Sessions "once said", quoted in the article, doesn't bear the scantest resemblance to the headline. Fake news. (Although Slate is admittedly more a blog than a news outlet.) Here's another take: Jeff Sessions's Unqualified Praise for a 1924 Immigration LawTrump’s pick for attorney general made the remarks during an interview with Breitbart’s Stephen Bannon, now an adviser to the president-elect. Senator Jeff Sessions, Donald Trump’s nominee to run the Justice Department, once praised a 1924 immigration law whose chief author in the House once declared was intended to end “indiscriminate acceptance of all races.” Sessions has long been a proponent of immigration restriction, and was one of the first to back Trump’s call on a ban on Muslims entering the United States during the primary. During an October 2015 radio interview with Stephen Bannon of Breitbart, now a top adviser to the president-elect, Sessions praised the 1924 law saying that: In seven years we'll have the highest percentage of Americans, non-native born, since the founding of the Republic. Some people think we've always had these numbers, and it's not so, it's very unusual, it's a radical change. When the numbers reached about this high in 1924, the president and congress changed the policy, and it slowed down immigration significantly, we then assimilated through the 1965 and created really the solid middle class of America, with assimilated immigrants, and it was good for America. We passed a law that went far beyond what anybody realized in 1965, and we're on a path to surge far past what the situation was in 1924.Sessions comments were first flagged by the liberal blog Right Wing Watch. The 1924 immigration law, known as the Johnson-Reed Act, drastically limited immigration and made permanent restrictions designed to keep out Southern and Eastern Europeans, particularly Italians and Jews, Africans, and Middle Easterners, barring Asian immigration entirely. Complete article here: Jeff Sessions's Unqualified Praise for a 1924 Immigration Law
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happyhoix
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Sept 7, 2017 8:47:27 GMT -5
Post by happyhoix on Sept 7, 2017 8:47:27 GMT -5
I'm a little puzzled on this program and maybe naive . I did go to a site that gave the requirement to get DACA status. It all seemed pretty straight forward. Not sure why people are worried about it if they have applied for citizenship. And if not, why haven't they. If it's because they have a criminal record, they should be deported. They are worried because to apply for the DACA program you had to give them your name and address. You basically outed yourself to the government as an illegal alien in the hopes of assistance in getting citizenship.
Many of the 'dreamers' didn't sign up for the DACA program because they didn't trust the government enough to give them their names and addresses. They were afraid, at some point, someone in the government would print out that list of addresses, get a big bus and start rounding them up. Like Trump said, better pack your bags!
Turns out, those who didn't sign up for the DACA program were right to be skeptical. They can continue to try to live under the radar and cross their fingers that sometime in their lifetime Congress will pass some kind of immigration reform.
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ArchietheDragon
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Sept 7, 2017 8:59:53 GMT -5
Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 7, 2017 8:59:53 GMT -5
If, and I know this is a big, big, if... but if congress passes some form of the Dreamers Act giving a path to citizenship for DACA participants, will Trump get the credit?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 7, 2017 9:07:48 GMT -5
Obama signed the DACA because Congress couldn't pass any kind of immigration reform legislation.
Sessions is now insisting that the DACA is unconstitutional and he can't defend it, which is why Trump claims he has no choice except to abolish it and hope that Congress finally gets around to making a constitutional legislative fix.
So - Sessions gets to play the big meanie, Trump gets to talk piously about how his 'heart' is with the tragic DACA folks, but in the meantime, pack your shit and deport yourselves.
Not surprising Sessions is champing at the bit to kick these people out. He's previously commented on how we need to not let as many Jews or Italians into the country. I could make a derogatory comment about Alabama and some Alabamians, but I'm sure not all Alabamians are like Sessions, and I don't want to offend the non-racist ones.
What's wrong with Italians? Is that the same grudge people used to have against the Irish? Well, those Southern Europeans tend to have such brown skin, and they're Catholics, which is almost as bad as being Jewish...
It's always amusing to me, in a not-funny-actually-disgusted way, how a segment of the white population acts like because they were here first and went to all the effort to get rid or deport the native population, they out to be able to dictate that only WASPs get to come join them here.
I blame the history books for promoting that 'the WASP Pilgrims got here first' idea. Ignoring all the other European (mostly Spanish) settlements that got to the New World first.
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bean29
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Sept 7, 2017 9:12:51 GMT -5
Post by bean29 on Sept 7, 2017 9:12:51 GMT -5
I'm a little puzzled on this program and maybe naive . I did go to a site that gave the requirement to get DACA status. It all seemed pretty straight forward. Not sure why people are worried about it if they have applied for citizenship. And if not, why haven't they. If it's because they have a criminal record, they should be deported. They are worried because to apply for the DACA program you had to give them your name and address. You basically outed yourself to the government as an illegal alien in the hopes of assistance in getting citizenship.
Many of the 'dreamers' didn't sign up for the DACA program because they didn't trust the government enough to give them their names and addresses. They were afraid, at some point, someone in the government would print out that list of addresses, get a big bus and start rounding them up. Like Trump said, better pack your bags!
Turns out, those who didn't sign up for the DACA program were right to be skeptical. They can continue to try to live under the radar and cross their fingers that sometime in their lifetime Congress will pass some kind of immigration reform.
Correct me if I am wrong, but they were not hoping to gain citizenship, but the right to work legally in the US. I don't think DACA promised citizenship - it is an end goal, but I don't think any promises were made in that regard. They were promised that the information they gave in their application would not be used to deport them though.
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billisonboard
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Sept 7, 2017 9:18:54 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Sept 7, 2017 9:18:54 GMT -5
If, and I know this is a big, big, if... but if congress passes some form of the Dreamers Act giving a path to citizenship for DACA participants, will Trump get the credit? Let us see how it all plays out, but I would have no problem with him getting credit for pushing them to act.
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happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
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DACA
Sept 7, 2017 9:24:24 GMT -5
Post by happyhoix on Sept 7, 2017 9:24:24 GMT -5
They are worried because to apply for the DACA program you had to give them your name and address. You basically outed yourself to the government as an illegal alien in the hopes of assistance in getting citizenship.
Many of the 'dreamers' didn't sign up for the DACA program because they didn't trust the government enough to give them their names and addresses. They were afraid, at some point, someone in the government would print out that list of addresses, get a big bus and start rounding them up. Like Trump said, better pack your bags!
Turns out, those who didn't sign up for the DACA program were right to be skeptical. They can continue to try to live under the radar and cross their fingers that sometime in their lifetime Congress will pass some kind of immigration reform.
Correct me if I am wrong, but they were not hoping to gain citizenship, but the right to work legally in the US. I don't think DACA promised citizenship - it is an end goal, but I don't think any promises were made in that regard. They were promised that the information they gave in their application would not be used to deport them though. Honestly I'm not a DACA expert, I'm not sure what was promised, except that they could get on a list and the government would NOT use that list to come pick them up for deportation. I remember when this first started that there were dreamers who were afraid to do that - seems they were right to be afraid.
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