thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 15, 2017 19:39:49 GMT -5
I earned my citizenship by picking the right vagina to burst forth from.
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mroped
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DACA
Sept 15, 2017 22:18:54 GMT -5
Post by mroped on Sept 15, 2017 22:18:54 GMT -5
Gives new meanings to "born with a silver spoon in your mouth"!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 15, 2017 22:58:33 GMT -5
He was born to American citizens. He has the papers. If you consider this insufficient to warrant US citizenship, state your case. If you believe it's unduly restrictive--that Americans have a moral responsibility to offer asylum to people without papers--why stop at border jumpers? Why not extend US citizenship to everyone on Earth? Does our moral obligation stop with Dreamers? If so, on what basis? Because they're lucky enough to be born to parents who illegally entered the country? Is this any less arbitrary than citizenship by birth? Give us a standard less arbitrary than "citizenship by birth and legal immigration", and we'll discuss. I don't know that I would have been able to get on a wooden boat and travel across the ocean to a new land. I don't know that I would have had the internal strength to survive the indignity of being forced from my home, chained, and made a slave. I don't know that I would have been able to load my earthly belongings on to my back or into a wagon and moved across the continent. But those who did form the stock that our nation came from. We now have citizens without the ability to lift their asses off the couch to get a job. I can only imagine what it takes to smuggle yourself into this country illegally (I am not talking about those who overstay a visa). But, you know what, I think it is something that is not bad for our country. And I don't really have a problem with rewarding their children who have made the most of the opportunity presented to them by their parents' illegal action. It's unfortunate that many Americans sit idle and milk the system. This is a separate problem. Entering the US illegally is a mixed basket, ranging from mundane to harrowing. It requires persistence, luck, determination, and a disregard for law. It is not a test for citizenship. Why? It rewards lawlessness and encourages more people to jump the border. It adds net strain to the US' social safety nets, which the US cannot afford. It depresses wages and promotes the importation of all kinds of problems endemic to South America, which persist over generations. Let's face it: the pro-DACA argument in this thread boils down to good-hearted people wanting DACA to be a good thing for America because its immediate effect will be to spare a lot of people a lot of suffering. But this doesn't suffice to make DACA a good thing. The West is spiraling toward oblivion in no small part due to our addiction to amassing long-term crises in exchange for short-term relief.
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 15, 2017 23:00:11 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 15, 2017 23:00:11 GMT -5
I earned my citizenship by picking the right vagina to burst forth from. Give it to a Chinese national if it's such a joke to you.
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 15, 2017 23:09:07 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 15, 2017 23:09:07 GMT -5
Quote; ... Because we're either lucky to have been born here or lucky to have the papers — but we're lucky nonetheless. We did nothing to earn being American. ...... Saying we did nothing to earn our being an American (US Citizen) is untrue. My parents were legal citizens according to US law. ... So he stated that quote was "untrue". He was born to American citizens. ... ... I remember being passively pushed along the birth canal. It wasn't like I actually did anything to pop out and be an American Citizen. I am glad that I did come out of an American citizen. So I don't think it is "untrue" that I was lucky. It's obvious he interpreted "earned" in the broad sense of "met the prerequisites for", which he goes on to describe in detail.
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billisonboard
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DACA
Sept 15, 2017 23:46:53 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Sept 15, 2017 23:46:53 GMT -5
... It's obvious he interpreted "earned" in the broad sense of "met the prerequisites for", which he goes on to describe in detail. That is one very broad sense of the word.
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 16, 2017 0:31:38 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 16, 2017 0:31:38 GMT -5
... It's obvious he interpreted "earned" in the broad sense of "met the prerequisites for", which he goes on to describe in detail. That is one very broad sense of the word. It's close enough. OC explained exactly why he took exception with the statement, and it's plainly not because he considers citizenship by birth to be a great feat. Don't be evil.
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billisonboard
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Sept 16, 2017 7:52:53 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Sept 16, 2017 7:52:53 GMT -5
That is one very broad sense of the word. It's close enough. OC explained exactly why he took exception with the statement, ... Exception wasn't taken, except maybe in a broad (i.e. new) sense of the word. It was declared "untrue". Now if a broad (i.e. new) sense of the word untrue is going to be offered, then I will have to withdraw my comment.
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Deleted
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DACA
Sept 18, 2017 11:32:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 11:32:46 GMT -5
... Saying we did nothing to earn our being an American (US Citizen) is untrue. My parents were legal citizens according to US law. ... You suggest that your parents did something to earn citizenship but what is it exactly that you did to earn citizenship? I earned my citizenship by being born from legal citizens who weren't in arrears of this countries laws. Therefore, there are no questions possible on the legality of my citizenship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 11:41:36 GMT -5
So he stated that quote was "untrue". I remember being passively pushed along the birth canal. It wasn't like I actually did anything to pop out and be an American Citizen. I am glad that I did come out of an American citizen. So I don't think it is "untrue" that I was lucky. It's obvious he interpreted "earned" in the broad sense of "met the prerequisites for", which he goes on to describe in detail. Exactly.
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Deleted
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DACA
Sept 18, 2017 11:44:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 11:44:02 GMT -5
... It's obvious he interpreted "earned" in the broad sense of "met the prerequisites for", which he goes on to describe in detail. That is one very broad sense of the word. Broad enough to cover the difference between citizen and illegal. I've already inferred my prose may not be correct.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 18, 2017 11:55:01 GMT -5
If you consider the fact that Spain was here first, colonizing much of the southwest, there are people in Mexico whose family ties to this country go back way farther than most of ours. Where does the buck stop?
Does someone who has ties going back 500 years trump mine that goes back only at most 150? Or do mine trump theirs because I am more recent and likely find the papers that prove my great great grandparents were allegedly legal? Never mind the fact that there was government sanctioned destruction of anything that showed Mexico/Mexicans had the right to the land they occupied once we decided we wanted the southwest territories for ourselves.
That's why I think that our relationship with Mexico is way more complicated than "My grandparents came here legally, you're parents didn't so neener neener get out". Go far enough back and the very people we're bitching about probably have a lot more rights to the land than we do. How far do we want to take the argument of "my family was here first?"
That's an emotional argument against immigration. There are problems with illegal immigration but it spans the entire globe. Illegal immigration from Southeast Asia is estimated to outnumber Mexicans by quite a large margin but nothing is being done to address that. Nor is nothing being done to address people who start out here legally but then go off the grid.
Building a wall is not going to solve illegal immigration. All building a wall is is flipping the middle finger to Mexico like we've been doing for the past 200+ years.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 18, 2017 18:40:26 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 19, 2017 0:14:47 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 19, 2017 0:14:47 GMT -5
ibid.: The Democratic governor announced Monday that through the “generosity of several local and national funders,” no state resident who’s in the program will need to pay the $495 application fee to apply for a two-year extension of their status in the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, also known as DACA. As long as these "local and national funders" are private organizations soliciting private donations, I suppose it can't hurt.
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zibazinski
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DACA
Sept 19, 2017 6:54:56 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zibazinski on Sept 19, 2017 6:54:56 GMT -5
Are there that many illegals in Rhode Island?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 20, 2017 20:09:09 GMT -5
That's why he was elected!!!!!!!! The president of this country is elected to serve the citizenry of the country as a whole, not to serve only those of his own political party. citizens, yes. Illegal immigrants not so much other than enforcing the laws on the books which mean deport them.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Sept 20, 2017 21:45:33 GMT -5
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 20, 2017 21:45:33 GMT -5
Points:
1. Art Of The Deal- Trump took a cynical Democratic Party talking point- "dreamers" and created a throw away negotiating point out of it. The Dems can't admit their cynical ploy, so they have to play along and pretend they're getting something. DACA "Dreamers"-- a minuscule subset (800K) of the at least 11 million illegal aliens in the country who came here, or were brought here as minors, were never going to get "sent back" to a country they're not really "from" and where they have no real home. But Trump just traded it for better border security. They can't call it a wall- but "better border security" means a wall. All Trump needs is the budget- and he'll do what he needs to do.
2. Trump exploited the fact that Democrats are "riding the tiger". He deliberately met with Nancy and Chuck to set off illegal aliens and the Democrat's far-left, unhinged lunatic base-- and it worked. Nancy Pelosi, the fringe leftist nicknamed "The San Francisco Treat", ended up getting shouted down and physically removed from her own podium by an angry mob of activists and illegal aliens.
3. Trump sent a clear message to the GOP: If you won't work with me, I'll work with the people I need to work with to get things done. I might not get everything I want- but I'll move the ball down the field, and I'll do it without you. In short: the GOP can and will be made irrelevant. Now, all of the sudden we're talking ObamaCare and Tax Reform...funny how that worked.
4. MOST IMPORTANT: REMEMBER THE BASELINE. The baseline for immigration reform is the "Gang of Eight" bi-partisan (UniParty) open-borders and amnesty position. Look where we are now. Look at the slings and arrows Trump took to get us here. And then relax. He's moving the ball down the field.
5. Beware of the #NeverTrump brigade. If you're a conservative- it's time to realize that the movement has become a cottage industry of book sales, speeches, and political fundraising. They are foils for the liberal agenda. Nothing more. The purists are killing us.
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Virgil Showlion
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Sept 20, 2017 22:39:44 GMT -5
Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 20, 2017 22:39:44 GMT -5
This is possibly a stupid question, but did you miss the part where Pres. Trump agreed to fast track DACA to legal status? Shortly after he sold out on his border wall proposal so fast he actually beat Pres. Obama's record selling out to Wall Street?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Sept 21, 2017 7:34:06 GMT -5
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 21, 2017 7:34:06 GMT -5
Once again, Donald Trump has brilliantly moved the ball WAAAAAY down the field in the direction of immigration sanity. And he has done so by essentially giving up nothing. Consider the following points in light of the fact that the line of scrimmage for comprehensive immigration reform going into the 2016 election was the bi-partisan (UniParty) "Gang of Eight" open borders and amnesty proposal. The fact that we're even having a rational discussion about immigration reform at all is due 100% to the courage stand and skillful "pacing and leading" of Donald Trump.
1. By exploiting the Democratic Party's proverbial "riding the tiger" position-- which is becoming more obvious by the day, Trump has turned the unhinged lunatic far left America-hating Democratic Party base against them. Witness Nancy Pelosi- about as kooky fringe left as you can get without actually being involuntarily committed to an insane asylum-- booed and forcibly removed from her own podium by illegal aliens demanding "all 11 million" and "all of us, or none of us". We thank them for showing their hand, and reminding Americans were the Dems really stand.
2. They're not going to call it a wall. They can't. But Trump got a commitment to funding and "better border security". What you have to understand about the wall is that it is a SIMPLE, easy to understand, easy to visualize object-- called an "anchor" in neurolinguistic programming (which Trump uses extensively and effectively). Do Americans really want a wall? Or do they want border security, immigration sanity, and respect for the rule of law? So, Trump will be able to show sections where there is a wall-- he'll extend and repair areas already built, and Americans will be happy. Had Trump started out with some long complicated explanation about how we'll build a wall here, a fence there, use electronic surveillance here-- it would be a loser. A big beautiful wall is simple, easy to visualize, and representative of the goal of controlling our borders. Trump will be able to move people to wherever he needs them to go on this issue because by pacing and leading-- which is taking the position they're at: STOP the INSANITY-- he gained their trust. Now, he can lead them to anyplace he needs them to go within the context of border control.
3. He can give up DACA because he knows what we all know- "dreamers" are a minuscule subset of illegal aliens selected for their appeal by Democrats in a cynical ploy to be the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. Trump is calling their bluff- AND he is getting a throw-away negotiating point for free. Basically, "dreamers" were always going to stay. Trump was never going to round up 800,000 people brought here or shipped here as minors and send them to a country not really their home. So, Trump gets that chip to play for free-- and the Dems either have to concede it was always "give us an inch so we can take a mile" OR, they have to make massive concessions. It will be the latter- and Trump will get the concessions, as I've said-- for free.
Again- remember where the line of scrimmage was in June 2015. America was one or two RINO or Democrat Senators away from open borders and amnesty. Now, ask yourself: when is the last time conservative leadership made and here's the key- KEPT gains? The answer is never in my lifetime. Trump is on the way to undoing the 1965 Immigration mess-- and if he gets even the slightest bit of progress on it, it will be a YUGE, long term, institutional win for America.
So, no- I'm not burning my MAGA hat. I'm enjoying the game. I ain't no ways tarred of #winning yet.
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billisonboard
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DACA
Sept 21, 2017 8:35:52 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Sept 21, 2017 8:35:52 GMT -5
... Trump got a commitment to funding and "better border security". ... So President Trump gave an actual program and in return he got words?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Sept 21, 2017 8:58:27 GMT -5
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 21, 2017 8:58:27 GMT -5
... Trump got a commitment to funding and "better border security". ... So President Trump gave an actual program and in return he got words? I think it's pretty clear he didn't give anything yet. He made an opening offer, he got an opening offer- but his opening offer was something that was always going to happen anyway- along with a bluff-call.
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billisonboard
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Sept 21, 2017 9:10:59 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Sept 21, 2017 9:10:59 GMT -5
So President Trump gave an actual program and in return he got words? I think it's pretty clear he didn't give anything yet. He made an opening offer, he got an opening offer- but his opening offer was something that was always going to happen anyway- along with a bluff-call. simply ongoing negotiations
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 21, 2017 11:22:21 GMT -5
So, no- I'm not burning my MAGA hat. I'm enjoying the game. I ain't no ways tarred of #winning yet. I'll toast to his success when he winds up with a bird in hand, not just 80 deep in the bush.
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