obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jul 31, 2016 9:40:44 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. Slavery is alive in this world and if you think that there is no one in America alive today that has seen a slave, shows how small a world you live in. Modern slavery is alive. Have you ever eaten frozen sea food/shrimps found in your local grocery store from Tailand?, they have a good chance to have been harvested by slaves. Do you really believe that all kinds of slavery in our world has been abolished?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 10:52:57 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. Slavery is alive in this world and if you think that there is no one in America alive today that has seen a slave, shows how small a world you live in. Modern slavery is alive. Have you ever eaten frozen sea food/shrimps found in your local grocery store from Tailand?, they have a good chance to have been harvested by slaves. Do you really believe that all kinds of slavery in our world has been abolished? I just shared a sex trafficking article on Facebook. Those are slaves, and that industry is alive and well.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 31, 2016 11:04:26 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. Slavery is alive in this world and if you think that there is no one in America alive today that has seen a slave, shows how small a world you live in. Modern slavery is alive. Have you ever eaten frozen sea food/shrimps found in your local grocery store from Tailand?, they have a good chance to have been harvested by slaves. Do you really believe that all kinds of slavery in our world has been abolished? I meant institutionalized, legal slavery here in the United states. Obviously there are criminal elements out there. I was and am well aware of human trafficking and forced labor. I have to take the training every year for my job. Also, the thread was started in the context of enslavement of people of African ancestory and reparations that the U.S should pay for it. So forgive me for trying to stay on topic.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2016 13:21:21 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. Slavery is alive in this world and if you think that there is no one in America alive today that has seen a slave, shows how small a world you live in. Modern slavery is alive. Have you ever eaten frozen sea food/shrimps found in your local grocery store from Tailand?, they have a good chance to have been harvested by slaves. Do you really believe that all kinds of slavery in our world has been abolished? Eat chocolate? The cocoa beans were most likely harvested by slaves. Child slaves. Kidnapped child slaves.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 31, 2016 13:25:35 GMT -5
Slavery is alive in this world and if you think that there is no one in America alive today that has seen a slave, shows how small a world you live in. Modern slavery is alive. Have you ever eaten frozen sea food/shrimps found in your local grocery store from Tailand?, they have a good chance to have been harvested by slaves. Do you really believe that all kinds of slavery in our world has been abolished? Eat chocolate? The coco beans were most likely harvested by slaves. Child slaves. Kidnapped child slaves. I'm not disputing this, it's just something I wasn't aware of and want to know more. Have some links?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2016 13:30:45 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2016 13:39:33 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2016 13:43:55 GMT -5
These are kids who will never even get to taste chocolate in their lifetimes.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 1, 2016 19:53:54 GMT -5
These are kids who will never even get to taste chocolate in their lifetimes. This might be a slightly cynical thing to say, but: for that part of the world, things could be a lot worse. At least the kid isn't carrying a machete and an assault rifle.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2016 22:10:07 GMT -5
These are kids who will never even get to taste chocolate in their lifetimes. This might be a slightly cynical thing to say, but: for that part of the world, things could be a lot worse. At least the kid isn't carrying a machete and an assault rifle.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 1, 2016 23:20:04 GMT -5
This might be a slightly cynical thing to say, but: for that part of the world, things could be a lot worse. At least the kid isn't carrying a machete and an assault rifle. I got sucked into the "Dark Side of Chocolate" documentary. I thought it was going to be about a handful of instances of child labour, but they succeeded in convincing me it's a major problem there. Really a sad, lawless state of affairs there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 23:52:01 GMT -5
Millions of human beings from countless diverse ethnic groups have been enslaved since the dawn of man. Thousands of societies have practiced it in hundreds of ways and unfortunately it remains to this day. I feel compassion for all forms of slavery, whenever and wherever it (has) occurred with humans. Also, being an animal lover, all the horrible ways in which they have not only been enslaved, but tortured/tested/experiment on/et al...It's truthfully shameful. You would think we could have come up with a better way for everyone on our planet. I find it one of the saddest aspects of our history as 'human beings' and I don't have any meaningful answers to stop it. If I could change it, I would in a heatbeat..
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 2, 2016 0:05:37 GMT -5
Millions of human beings from countless diverse ethnic groups have been enslaved since the dawn of man. Thousands of societies have practiced it in hundreds of ways and unfortunately it remains to this day. I feel compassion for all forms of slavery, whenever and wherever it (has) occurred with humans. Also, being an animal lover, all the horrible ways in which they have not only been enslaved, but tortured/tested/experiment on/et al...It's truthfully shameful. You would think we could have come up with a better way for everyone on our planet. I find it one of the saddest aspects of our history as 'human beings' and I don't have any meaningful answers to stop it. If I could change it, I would in a heatbeat.. It's ironic that we make such a sharp distinction between the slavers and the slaves, when in many cases--like the chocolate documentary--the two are virtually indistinguishable from each other. They come from the same villages, as do the traffickers. They all live in considerable poverty. Neither group is educated. To look at them, it was impossible to tell the oppressors and the oppressed apart. Bond or free was almost arbitrary. Scarcely more than an attitude. I don't think we in the first world can understand it all that well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 0:58:33 GMT -5
Traditionally speaking, I don't believe that was the case Virgil..ie; Sumarians, Ancient Egyptians, Chinese, Greek, Roman Empire, et.al, and all those through millenia wherein there were clear, differences in distinguished 'classes' and/or groups of people belonging in various 'power positions' vs. a markedly distinct different 'powerless/enslaved' position in life.. Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post..it's late and i'm off to get some rest.. ..sleep well..
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 2, 2016 4:04:10 GMT -5
Traditionally speaking, I don't believe that was the case Virgil..ie; Sumarians, Ancient Egyptians, Chinese, Greek, Roman Empire, et.al, and all those through millenia wherein there were clear, differences in distinguished 'classes' and/or groups of people belonging in various 'power positions' vs. a markedly distinct different 'powerless/enslaved' position in life.. Forgive me if I misinterpreted your post..it's late and i'm off to get some rest.. ..sleep well.. I didn't mean to imply all slavery situations were so characterized. Just what I observed in the case of the slavery in northwest Africa.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 2, 2016 4:35:02 GMT -5
One of the BLM press organs released a list of demands yesterday: policy.m4bl.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/20160726-m4bl-Vision-Booklet-V3.pdfIt would appear that voluntary reparations are the least of anything white Americans are on the hook for. Among the list: - An end to money bail, mandatory fines, fees, court surcharges and “defendant funded” court proceedings.
- An end to the use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services and needs.
- An end to the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills, an end to all deportations, immigrant detention, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, and mandated legal representation in immigration court.
- Repayment for the systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education (technology, trade and agricultural), educational support programs, retroactive forgiveness of student loans, and support for lifetime learning programs.
- Reparations for the continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people, with clearly articulated corporate regulations.
- Reparations for the wealth extracted from our communities through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations focused on healing ongoing physical and mental trauma, and ensuring our access and control of food sources, housing and land.
- Reparations for the cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction of our communities in the form of mandated public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery, and funding to support, build, preserve, and restore cultural assets and sacred sites to ensure the recognition and honoring of our collective struggles and triumphs.
- Legislation at the federal and state level that requires the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts. This includes the immediate passage of H.R.40, the “Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act” or subsequent versions which call for reparations remedies.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 2, 2016 5:53:18 GMT -5
One of the BLM press organs released a list of demands yesterday: policy.m4bl.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/20160726-m4bl-Vision-Booklet-V3.pdfIt would appear that voluntary reparations are the least of anything white Americans are on the hook for. Among the list: - An end to money bail, mandatory fines, fees, court surcharges and “defendant funded” court proceedings.
- An end to the use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services and needs.
- An end to the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills, an end to all deportations, immigrant detention, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, and mandated legal representation in immigration court.
- Repayment for the systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education (technology, trade and agricultural), educational support programs, retroactive forgiveness of student loans, and support for lifetime learning programs.
- Reparations for the continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people, with clearly articulated corporate regulations.
- Reparations for the wealth extracted from our communities through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations focused on healing ongoing physical and mental trauma, and ensuring our access and control of food sources, housing and land.
- Reparations for the cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction of our communities in the form of mandated public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery, and funding to support, build, preserve, and restore cultural assets and sacred sites to ensure the recognition and honoring of our collective struggles and triumphs.
- Legislation at the federal and state level that requires the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts. This includes the immediate passage of H.R.40, the “Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act” or subsequent versions which call for reparations remedies.
Hahahahahaha....please tell me know one takes these demands seriously? We can't use past crimes against black people? Black people can be held to pay for any costs related to crime? Good lord, a group of morons
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 2, 2016 6:39:54 GMT -5
Good luck with that. They need to clean up themselves and their own neighborhoods first. Who funds these assholes anyway? Who are they living off of while they don't work?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 9:39:22 GMT -5
Virgil okay (duhh), I understand now.. (though i'm not familiar w/the chocolate documentary; will research it.)
Thanks..
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 2, 2016 13:33:00 GMT -5
WOOT! Who wants to send me a left handed can opener and some lefty notebooks? Forget the can opener. I need lefty scissors. Right-handed ones suck! And you will have to pry my lefty notebook out of my cold dead hands. With no ink smears, I might add. I have 2 pair! And some at work.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Aug 2, 2016 14:21:31 GMT -5
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 2, 2016 14:24:13 GMT -5
I...um. Kind of understand the bit about bail/fines/etc.
Forget race though. People with money end up being able to get away with a lot more than people without. Fines vs. jail, being able to make bail and not having to sit in holding, being able to take time off work/pay for daycare/take the financial hit of various diversion programs.
Stuff that is mildly inconvenient for people with money can be life destroying for people without. This is true of many things, but when it comes to crime and punishment it's especially gross.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 2, 2016 14:31:10 GMT -5
Then don't do something that'll land you in jail. I can afford a speeding ticket. I don't speed because I'm not willing to waste my money that way. Cause and effect.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 2, 2016 14:48:47 GMT -5
So people who are poor can't fuck up without having their lives ruined and people who are rich can get away with a small economic blip?
OH, and no one innocent is ever arrested. Got it.
Carl had a bench warrant for him because of someone else having the same/similar name. He could have ended in a cell if pulled over for a brake light being out.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 2, 2016 14:53:33 GMT -5
I'm neither poor or rich and I have an extremely common name. I don't do anything to get in trouble and therefore I don't get into trouble. If I were poor I'd be even more careful. Just because I can afford a ticket doesn't mean I want to donate my money to the cause.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 14:55:30 GMT -5
Forget the can opener. I need lefty scissors. Right-handed ones suck! And you will have to pry my lefty notebook out of my cold dead hands. With no ink smears, I might add. I have 2 pair! And some at work. Where did you get them? I need some. Knives are nice but sometimes you just need scissors.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 2, 2016 14:55:33 GMT -5
I...um. Kind of understand the bit about bail/fines/etc. Forget race though. People with money end up being able to get away with a lot more than people without. Fines vs. jail, being able to make bail and not having to sit in holding, being able to take time off work/pay for daycare/take the financial hit of various diversion programs. Stuff that is mildly inconvenient for people with money can be life destroying for people without. This is true of many things, but when it comes to crime and punishment it's especially gross. Also we need to reduce fines and jail time for petty crimes. Lock up the repeat DUIs, pedos, etc. but just fine the guy holding a few grams of mj. He is not as big of a threat to society as the first two are.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 2, 2016 14:56:43 GMT -5
I'm neither poor or rich and I have an extremely common name. I don't do anything to get in trouble and therefore I don't get into trouble. But Carl didn't, and he got a bench warrant.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 2, 2016 15:07:46 GMT -5
Then you have been lucky.
There are a lot of people in my state who have spent a night (or longer) in jail for being caught driving on a suspended license. Anyone stupid enough to drive on a suspended license deserves to go to jail, right? Well, since the state repealed the law requiring courts to issue notice when a probationary license is revoked, it's likely the person didn't have a clue the license was no longer valid. Can't afford the $500 cash bond, you'll sit in jail until you can.
Or when you happen to move and don't notify the court of your new address, you're unlikely to receive notice of any proceedings taking place in your absence... hopefully you aren't ever issued an order to show cause for contempt, because if you don't show up at that hearing, out goes a bench warrant for your arrest. (Good luck to any homeless people who don't have a permanent address!)
Or when you are arrested for a minor misdemeanor, can't afford bond, and wind up being released before trial because you've already served more than the maximum potential penalty for the underlying crime (of which you have not yet been tried or convicted).
To the extent BLM supports reform of those practices, they are absolutely correct IMO. I agree with quince that these are primarily issues of economics rather than race, but they are real problems for many communities.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 2, 2016 15:09:40 GMT -5
We can bring it 'round to race again, too. Yes, if you're poor and/or a member of an often profiled minority, it would be a wise decision to be exceedingly careful never to step a toe out of line.
However, the consequences for stepping a toe out of line should not be so disproportionately awful for poor and/or members of profiled minorities, or so disproportionately minor for wealthy/members of preferred majorities.
This is the way our legal/police system works. This is not the way it should work. We live in the world that is. This does not mean we should not desire/work for changes, especially those that might make the justice system more just.
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