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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 20:00:56 GMT -5
I can't imagine reparations as a valid concept in this context. Yes, criminal smashes my windshield and steals my laptop (never mind my stupid for leaving it in there, this is hypothetical), perp can make a financial restitution for my financial loss. Reparation for my sense of violation and loss, don't think so. End of day, no one is responsible for my internal angst but me. Isn't the attitude of "black people can deal with their own problems; they're not mine" the sine qua non of "white privilege" though? Perhaps it is, but that's not my attitude. Nor is an honest assessment of my problems that resulted from society's perception of my mixed ancestry the burden of anyone other than those individuals who acted on that perception. As painful as that was and is, I will not project my pain on individuals who have not harmed me by anything more than their earthly existence. End of day, for me, it comes down to individual attitudes and actions in the here-and-now. Otherwise we could devolve back to the sins of the fathers time. Bottom line, nothing material I can give or receive will change the 'tude or hurt we cast on one another because of prejudice. There's nothing I can put in my closet or dresser or bank account that will heal the hurt, and nothing I can put in anyone else's either. Only way to make any sort of meaningful reparation is to change what's in our minds and hearts.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 20:28:55 GMT -5
Yes. Please just make me feel better And why do the Asians not have the same issue? They are culturally different than white You really need to educate yourself about this stuff if you want to discuss it so much. Some Asian groups do have the same issues, you are relying on stereotypes here. If you want to understand those difference, and you don't want to actually really study it, I suggest googling around. So Asians aren't to be lumped in together (even though every article I have read does) but all whites and blacks get lumped together? Sounds totally legit
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 20:31:37 GMT -5
I was going to say...all Asians are not culturally the same. (I was also going to say that my family has a tradition of "disappearing" kids who do poorly on tests, but that is an extremely inappropriate joke. ) I'm not studied up on this, but I'm sure some of this is a linguistic issue. I know that kids of all sorts of backgrounds from Hawaii do poorly on the English portion of standardized tests because the local pidgin is such a strong influence on how kids learn the English language. Any culture with extremely strong slang is going to have issues based on that alone. But all whites aren't culturally the same, either. Do you think the rural poor are culturally the same as the NyC elite? I work with a guy from the backwoods of Georgia. I don't know wtf he is saying half the time. If a kid doesn't do well in a test because he only knows slang, the issue isn't with the test
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 29, 2016 21:12:08 GMT -5
Um, sorry I got busy with my family?
Someone mentioned using IQ tests instead of the usual tests. IQ tests are supposed to measure innate ability, not how much you've learned in school, so studying more shouldn't matter. The fact that IQ's change with more education is problematic because it indicates that it is not measuring exactly what it claims to measure.
As far as the bias issue is concerned, there is bias in any test. The object is to recognize any potential biases and attempt to eliminate or minimize them as much as possible. The fact that IQ tests measure specific kinds of intelligence, while ignoring others, is a bias in itself, and can explain the different scores among different cultural groups--including Asians. Whatever is actually being measured in the test is more valued within the Asian culture, thus more predominant.
Now, I'm sorry this went on such a big tangent. What was this thread about, anyhow?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 29, 2016 21:15:49 GMT -5
Um, sorry I got busy with my family? Someone mentioned using IQ tests instead of the usual tests. IQ tests are supposed to measure innate ability, not how much you've learned in school, so studying more shouldn't matter. The fact that IQ's change with more education is problematic because it indicates that it is not measuring exactly what it claims to measure. As far as the bias issue is concerned, there is bias in any test. The object is to recognize any potential biases and attempt to eliminate or minimize them as much as possible. The fact that IQ tests measure specific kinds of intelligence, while ignoring others, is a bias in itself, and can explain the different scores among different cultural groups--including Asians. Whatever is actually being measured in the test is more valued within the Asian culture, thus more predominant. Now, I'm sorry this went on such a big tangent. What was this thread about, anyhow? ETA: now that I look back, I see the question is about SAT scores, not IQ test. Those are 2 different things. SAT's, you can study your ass off for. Personally, I didn't study for the SAT at all, because I didn't know you could. That's definitely a cultural thing.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 21:35:05 GMT -5
Um, sorry I got busy with my family? Someone mentioned using IQ tests instead of the usual tests. IQ tests are supposed to measure innate ability, not how much you've learned in school, so studying more shouldn't matter. The fact that IQ's change with more education is problematic because it indicates that it is not measuring exactly what it claims to measure. As far as the bias issue is concerned, there is bias in any test. The object is to recognize any potential biases and attempt to eliminate or minimize them as much as possible. The fact that IQ tests measure specific kinds of intelligence, while ignoring others, is a bias in itself, and can explain the different scores among different cultural groups--including Asians. Whatever is actually being measured in the test is more valued within the Asian culture, thus more predominant. Now, I'm sorry this went on such a big tangent. What was this thread about, anyhow? ETA: now that I look back, I see the question is about SAT scores, not IQ test. Those are 2 different things. SAT's, you can study your ass off for. Personally, I didn't study for the SAT at all, because I didn't know you could. That's definitely a cultural thing. Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? Eta: I guess if the whores spent more time studying they could have scores like the Asians!lol. Clearly I meant whites. Autocorrect got me. Which says i must type whores a lot...lol
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 21:50:05 GMT -5
Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? I wish whores weren't treated so unfairly . Omg, hahahaha! Talk about an autocorrect!lol
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 29, 2016 21:50:12 GMT -5
ETA: now that I look back, I see the question is about SAT scores, not IQ test. Those are 2 different things. SAT's, you can study your ass off for. Personally, I didn't study for the SAT at all, because I didn't know you could. That's definitely a cultural thing. Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? I hope you meant "whites."
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 21:51:02 GMT -5
Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? I hope you meant "whites." Whites/whores...potato/vodka :-p I don't have a clue where that autocorrect came from
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 29, 2016 21:52:10 GMT -5
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 29, 2016 22:05:53 GMT -5
ETA: now that I look back, I see the question is about SAT scores, not IQ test. Those are 2 different things. SAT's, you can study your ass off for. Personally, I didn't study for the SAT at all, because I didn't know you could. That's definitely a cultural thing. Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? Eta: I guess if the whores spent more time studying they could have scores like the Asians!lol. Clearly I meant whites. Autocorrect got me. Which says i must type whores a lot...lol By studying, I meant test prep. I didn't realize good students got test prep courses and materials to knock their scores out of the park. Among certain cultures, all the test prep is a given and pushed by the parents (ala tiger mom). Other students are just lucky to scrape together the $$ to take the test after getting a mediocre at best education at their inner-city school. I attended my first test prep course for grad school a year ago. At 40-something, I had no idea there were so many tips and techniques that could help, not to mention all the samples to practice with and study more closely.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 22:09:45 GMT -5
Yet the colleges accept lower scores from blacks and expect higher scores from whores and even higher scores from Asians. If it all comes down to studying, why the discrepancy? Eta: I guess if the whores spent more time studying they could have scores like the Asians!lol. Clearly I meant whites. Autocorrect got me. Which says i must type whores a lot...lol By studying, I meant test prep. I didn't realize good students got test prep courses and materials to knock their scores out of the park. Among certain cultures, all the test prep is a given and pushed by the parents (ala tiger mom). Other students are just lucky to scrape together the $$ to take the test after getting a mediocre at best education at their inner-city school. I attended my first test prep course for grad school a year ago. At 40-something, I had no idea there were so many tips and techniques that could help, not to mention all the samples to practice with and study more closely. Wouldn't that seem to indicate that the color of your skin has less to do with your sat scores than the family you come from?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 29, 2016 23:51:34 GMT -5
I hope you meant "whites." Whites/whores...potato/vodka :-p I don't have a clue where that autocorrect came from You probably typed in "whotes" by accident, although you'd think that'd be one autocorrect they'd leave out.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 7:01:08 GMT -5
By studying, I meant test prep. I didn't realize good students got test prep courses and materials to knock their scores out of the park. Among certain cultures, all the test prep is a given and pushed by the parents (ala tiger mom). Other students are just lucky to scrape together the $$ to take the test after getting a mediocre at best education at their inner-city school. I attended my first test prep course for grad school a year ago. At 40-something, I had no idea there were so many tips and techniques that could help, not to mention all the samples to practice with and study more closely. Wouldn't that seem to indicate that the color of your skin has less to do with your sat scores than the family you come from? Which is why I think we need to focus on the K-12 schools and students. I really believe lack of resources to the poor but smart kids and lack of positive role models is the problem. It's socioeconomic now - not racial. But in the past, most blacks were poor and I guess the assumption was never revisited.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 7:04:45 GMT -5
You really need to educate yourself about this stuff if you want to discuss it so much. Some Asian groups do have the same issues, you are relying on stereotypes here. If you want to understand those difference, and you don't want to actually really study it, I suggest googling around. One reason I can think of is that when I would stop off at the Chinese restaurant after work I would see their kids sitting at a table doing their homework. As opposed to "expressing themselves" or acting like hoodlums. I bet those kids get good grades. Those grades will lead to a college degree. That college degree will lead to a lucrative job. Well that's all the research I need! It's the family that makes a difference. It helps if people support your academic achievement.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2016 7:29:35 GMT -5
Both my kids missed the coat/jacket question. We lived in Florida.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 7:57:06 GMT -5
I've needed a coat in Florida, but it was Orlando. Does it really never get cold in South Florida?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2016 8:00:53 GMT -5
It does but not often. I think the thing that tripped them up was actually mittens.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 30, 2016 8:14:51 GMT -5
Wouldn't that seem to indicate that the color of your skin has less to do with your sat scores than the family you come from? Which is why I think we need to focus on the K-12 schools and students. I really believe lack of resources to the poor but smart kids and lack of positive role models is the problem. It's socioeconomic now - not racial. But in the past, most blacks were poor and I guess the assumption was never revisited. I totally agree with this statement. Correlation does not mean causation. Granted, Im not a phd who spends hours reading research reports so perhaps Im not allowed to give my opinion (rolls eyes) but trying to sugar coat results and say they aren't real because it isn't pc for them to be, means that resources will be directed to the wrong areas. It here is a reason that each cultural group has different scores and I don't think it is because each test is bad.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 30, 2016 8:54:27 GMT -5
Which is why I think we need to focus on the K-12 schools and students. I really believe lack of resources to the poor but smart kids and lack of positive role models is the problem. It's socioeconomic now - not racial. But in the past, most blacks were poor and I guess the assumption was never revisited. I totally agree with this statement. Correlation does not mean causation. Granted, Im not a phd who spends hours reading research reports so perhaps Im not allowed to give my opinion (rolls eyes) but trying to sugar coat results and say they aren't real because it isn't pc for them to be, means that resources will be directed to the wrong areas. It here is a reason that each cultural group has different scores and I don't think it is because each test is bad. The only thing you can be sure a test measures, is how well the test taker performed on that test on that particular day. You can't be sure you are getting the best students by solely using those scores, especially when the "best families" will push and buy the best preparation available, while smarter, harder working students can be at a disadvantage due to lack of family support and resources. Rich families probably don't have a problem paying for retakes in order to get scores up. Is that what you want, all the available slots filled by students from the best, richest families while students who are actually smarter lose out by coming in a few points lower on one test? IQ tests are better, as they are designed so that they can't be prepped for as much. That's why those were suggested instead. I merely pointed out that those aren't perfect either. I don't know what the answer is. My own background is similar to that of many Hispanics, but being white, I never got any extra consideration. Nevertheless, I kicked ass on the PSAT despite not prepping for it. Didn't really get anything for it but a Certificate. I don't think picking people out by race is fair, but I do think they're attempting to make it more fair by doing that. How do you sort through every individual student's situation?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 30, 2016 10:21:20 GMT -5
I've needed a coat in Florida, but it was Orlando. Does it really never get cold in South Florida? Orlando is inland and also central/north central. On the coasts next to the water from about Tampa on down south, it is rare for it to get very cold. The few times it does get cold, it warms up so quickly that it's no big deal. I live right on the bay since 2007 and never seen frost on any part of my property. A few miles inland from me will get light frost maybe a couple of times a year, but it's gone by 9 or 10 AM when the sun comes out. I grew up in the area and even though I grew up inland, which gets hotter in the summer and colder in the winter, I never owned a coat or jacket until I went away to college and it was only when I learned to ski that I first bought mittens. When I first moved to North Carolina, I donated blood and as a thank you gift the lady handed me a weird plastic thing. My sister who was with me asked "why did they give you a cat litter scoop?" The nice Red Cross lady broke down laughing and explained that it was an ice scraper. Still puzzled, I asked what ice I'd need to scrape. She laughed even harder and clarified that I would use it to scrape ice off my car. Ohhhh...
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 30, 2016 10:23:12 GMT -5
It wasn't that long ago when major tests weren't examined at all for any sort of bias. I distinctly remember on my SAT test there was an analogy question that compared a phrase to "Runs Batted In" (RBIs). My family never watched baseball and I didn't even know until later when I looked it up what an RBI was...
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Jul 30, 2016 11:26:58 GMT -5
Oh I dunno, the starvation of millions of Irish during the potato famine while Great Britain was exporting food to other countries was pretty shitty.
And we are only about 70 years removed from the "No Irish need apply" signs.
Well now, I want more than just a massage! I'm part Irish and we had a couple family members who were sent here as indentured servants, where the hell is my massage
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 11:30:39 GMT -5
You really need to educate yourself about this stuff if you want to discuss it so much. Some Asian groups do have the same issues, you are relying on stereotypes here. If you want to understand those difference, and you don't want to actually really study it, I suggest googling around. So Asians aren't to be lumped in together (even though every article I have read does) but all whites and blacks get lumped together? Sounds totally legit No, they aren't. Like with the US, a highly educated Asian touts the importance of education (probably more than their white counterparts). I have 2 almost nieces, TD's brother's kids. Their mother is a physician, and both daughters have engineering degrees. I worked with an Asian in TX, both he and his wife were MDs and his daughter is too. Another Asian I worked with is a vet, both of his daughters are also physicians. Still another I used to work (both he and his wife have PhDs) with has kids in HS and they are way ahead of their classmates. I don't know about TD's nieces as I didn't meet them as children, but I do know that the one thing that they all had in common was that it wasn't sufficient for their kids to be on grade, they MUST be way ahead of everyone else. All of the Asian children that I have known growing up were taking additional classes on top of their schoolwork. NONE if them, had any sort of extracurricular activity. No sports, no music lessons, no dance, nothing. They also didn't appear to have much of a social life (especially when compared to what i have seen with my nieces and nephews). Education is pushed beyond anything else and any time outside of school was spent on learning. Granted, all of this is anecdotal. But the feeling I got talking to their parents was that this was the way things were done.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 30, 2016 19:20:34 GMT -5
So Asians aren't to be lumped in together (even though every article I have read does) but all whites and blacks get lumped together? Sounds totally legit No, they aren't. Like with the US, a highly educated Asian touts the importance of education (probably more than their white counterparts). I have 2 almost nieces, TD's brother's kids. Their mother is a physician, and both daughters have engineering degrees. I worked with an Asian in TX, both he and his wife were MDs and his daughter is too. Another Asian I worked with is a vet, both of his daughters are also physicians. Still another I used to work (both he and his wife have PhDs) with has kids in HS and they are way ahead of their classmates. I don't know about TD's nieces as I didn't meet them as children, but I do know that the one thing that they all had in common was that it wasn't sufficient for their kids to be on grade, they MUST be way ahead of everyone else. All of the Asian children that I have known growing up were taking additional classes on top of their schoolwork. NONE if them, had any sort of extracurricular activity. No sports, no music lessons, no dance, nothing. They also didn't appear to have much of a social life (especially when compared to what i have seen with my nieces and nephews). Education is pushed beyond anything else and any time outside of school was spent on learning. Granted, all of this is anecdotal. But the feeling I got talking to their parents was that this was the way things were done. So do you think Asian pride is what make them so successful? The family expectation is that the kids will succeed so to do anything but succeed would shame the family?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2016 21:36:43 GMT -5
No, they aren't. Like with the US, a highly educated Asian touts the importance of education (probably more than their white counterparts). I have 2 almost nieces, TD's brother's kids. Their mother is a physician, and both daughters have engineering degrees. I worked with an Asian in TX, both he and his wife were MDs and his daughter is too. Another Asian I worked with is a vet, both of his daughters are also physicians. Still another I used to work (both he and his wife have PhDs) with has kids in HS and they are way ahead of their classmates. I don't know about TD's nieces as I didn't meet them as children, but I do know that the one thing that they all had in common was that it wasn't sufficient for their kids to be on grade, they MUST be way ahead of everyone else. All of the Asian children that I have known growing up were taking additional classes on top of their schoolwork. NONE if them, had any sort of extracurricular activity. No sports, no music lessons, no dance, nothing. They also didn't appear to have much of a social life (especially when compared to what i have seen with my nieces and nephews). Education is pushed beyond anything else and any time outside of school was spent on learning. Granted, all of this is anecdotal. But the feeling I got talking to their parents was that this was the way things were done. So do you think Asian pride is what make them so successful? The family expectation is that the kids will succeed so to do anything but succeed would shame the family? Absolutely. DH's former stepson married an Asian girl. Her family was horrified because not only was he white, he was an uneducated loser living off her. Only when DH went to their house, hat in hand, and promised all kinds of financial incentives , did they begrudgingly give their consent. They still will have nothing to do with their half breed grandchildren. In their minds their brilliant (and she is) daughter has brought shame on the family.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 21:39:13 GMT -5
No, they aren't. Like with the US, a highly educated Asian touts the importance of education (probably more than their white counterparts). I have 2 almost nieces, TD's brother's kids. Their mother is a physician, and both daughters have engineering degrees. I worked with an Asian in TX, both he and his wife were MDs and his daughter is too. Another Asian I worked with is a vet, both of his daughters are also physicians. Still another I used to work (both he and his wife have PhDs) with has kids in HS and they are way ahead of their classmates. I don't know about TD's nieces as I didn't meet them as children, but I do know that the one thing that they all had in common was that it wasn't sufficient for their kids to be on grade, they MUST be way ahead of everyone else. All of the Asian children that I have known growing up were taking additional classes on top of their schoolwork. NONE if them, had any sort of extracurricular activity. No sports, no music lessons, no dance, nothing. They also didn't appear to have much of a social life (especially when compared to what i have seen with my nieces and nephews). Education is pushed beyond anything else and any time outside of school was spent on learning. Granted, all of this is anecdotal. But the feeling I got talking to their parents was that this was the way things were done. So do you think Asian pride is what make them so successful? The family expectation is that the kids will succeed so to do anything but succeed would shame the family? Knowing their parents, I think that this is a part of it at least. The parents expect that their kids would exceed the norm, and they are given the tools to do so. Since I don't know of any 'failures' in my admittedly small sample, I think that the idea of disappointing their parents is stronger incentive to do well than shame.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jul 30, 2016 23:20:03 GMT -5
It might take generations to get people up to upper middle class so why try to do it all at once? We need more black adults working middle class jobs like police officer or school teacher then they can raise their children to do better. We are getting more black adults working in jobs like nursing who will expect their children to go to college and buy homes in the suburbs. We need to get poor people black and white or other to get those middle class trades and careers not just jobs. I have worked with some black people who were tops in their field and their children are raised to expect to succeed. We have a lot of low class whites too and their children aren't expected to do better either. Drugs are bad for entire families and so is welfare yet some families can overcome some of the poor beginnings. My cousin and his wife haven't ever worked they both get SSI and raised two kids. Now the kids are grown and didn't go to college. One is working in a grain elevator worked 80 hours last week, small town he grew up in. Someone made him think he needed to work. His grandparents have farms and the boys were sent to farms to do labor as teens so even if parents don't work they grew up knowing about work. Some generational welfare families the kids never learn about work and become disabled or have children to get on the dole for life many get emotional problems when faced with work. We need to get those kids into jobs that pay more than disability or part time fast food where they can see a future, skilled trades, truck drivers something that pays. Not just black kids all poor kids from families without middle class values.
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obelisk
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Post by obelisk on Jul 31, 2016 9:21:17 GMT -5
I would donate if the cause was hilarious enough which would cause my ancestors to turn back and find another continent to immigrate to.
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countrygirl
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Post by countrygirl on Jul 31, 2016 9:36:59 GMT -5
I had a tough time, I had no one at home that was educated enough to help. I had to dig and read and learn to figure out what I even had to do to get in college. I went to a state supported school. I did very well on my SAT's but only because I read a lot but I was so lacking. I lacked in social skills, I would have never been considered for a sorority, didn't live on campus was a commuter. I remember hearing about the kids that didn't even come to class in the sororities, they said they had the tests on file and they would study those and come take the tests and of course, ace them, I don't know if that was true or not, but suspect it was. I was from a small country school and the first year of college was a struggle, for many it seemed to be just a review. Had comments made about my southern Indiana language.
I can remember in statistics of the prof using a deck of cards for probabilities, I didn't even know how many cards were in a deck, had to go home and get one out, count them and look at the different kinds. My dad played cards but I was never did. I was not allowed to socialize, had to practically beg to get to go to the after prom party when I was a junior.
Yes, folks paid for college, my mom begrudgingly, dad proudly. I got married soon as my boyfriend got back from Vietnam to get away. I should have joined the military to get out and stayed single longer but it worked out ok. The folks wouldn't even pay for a wedding because I could have done better, but when I wanted to join the military dad threw a fit. I was under his thumb and would not do anything against them, then finally had enough. Didn't end up with my CPA and had kids with issues, but who knows. But I thank them for the degree and it was well worth it throughout my life.
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