djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 22, 2016 17:58:28 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 22, 2016 18:02:36 GMT -5
No
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 22, 2016 18:03:10 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 18:24:59 GMT -5
Depends on the torture:
I say making them listen to Rush Limbaugh for two weeks straight could be considered torture... and I'd be o.k. with that.
Waterboarding or electrodes to the genitals? Not so o.k. with that.
ETA: or substitute an opinionated blowhard that's opposite of their beliefs if their beliefs line up with Rush's... how about Pat Robertson for two weeks straight instead?
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Mar 22, 2016 19:15:32 GMT -5
No and it's against the law, but Trump wouldn't know that.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 22, 2016 19:31:00 GMT -5
This is way too easy for me. No.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 19:31:41 GMT -5
No
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 20:03:47 GMT -5
We should all say we are against torture but not hold any government official responsible if they sanction it. That way we could all feel good about ourselves as so moral but still have torture. A wink and a nod with some moral sanctimony.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 22, 2016 20:30:15 GMT -5
No.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 22, 2016 20:32:50 GMT -5
No.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 22, 2016 20:39:05 GMT -5
Depends on the torture: I say making them listen to Rush Limbaugh for two weeks straight could be considered torture... and I'd be o.k. with that. Waterboarding or electrodes to the genitals? Not so o.k. with that. ETA: or substitute an opinionated blowhard that's opposite of their beliefs if their beliefs line up with Rush's... how about Pat Robertson for two weeks straight instead? Next year, force them to watch the Judge Sarah show. They will fold faster than a lawn chair and give up secrets after 30 minutes of watching her. Sarah Palin Signs Deal to Preside Judge Judy-Style Over Her Own Reality TV Courtroom
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mollyanna58
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Post by mollyanna58 on Mar 22, 2016 22:25:19 GMT -5
No. We are better than that.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 22, 2016 23:07:38 GMT -5
ok, good. i would have appreciated more conservatives responding here, but at least i am not feeling totally alone.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 22, 2016 23:27:34 GMT -5
ok, good. i would have appreciated more conservatives responding here, but at least i am not feeling totally alone. The hour is late and most folks post during working hours anyway.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 22, 2016 23:44:41 GMT -5
Unequivocally NO!
I doubt our previous involvement did much versus the blowback we'll get for decades to come. All while attempting to "make the homeland safe".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 1:38:14 GMT -5
Ordinarily I'd say "no", but Mr. Trump makes a compelling argument. If the US doesn't torture people, the terrorists win.
We can't allow that to happen. The terrorists clearly have no civility, scruples, or respect for international law.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 1:39:33 GMT -5
Ordinarily I'd say "no", but Mr. Trump makes a compelling argument. If the US doesn't torture people, the terrorists win. We can't allow that to happen. The terrorists clearly have no civility, scruples, or respect for international law. actually, it is precisely the opposite. if the US tortures people, the terrorists win.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 2:39:26 GMT -5
Ordinarily I'd say "no", but Mr. Trump makes a compelling argument. If the US doesn't torture people, the terrorists win. We can't allow that to happen. The terrorists clearly have no civility, scruples, or respect for international law. actually, it is precisely the opposite. if the US tortures people, the terrorists win. I wouldn't go quite that far. As far as I'm concerned, the terrorists "winning" is independent from whether or not the US cedes the moral high ground. For instance, I'd consider the terrorists to have won if 90% of America's cities were decimated by suitcase nukes, half of Europeans were scared to leave their homes at night, or if terroristic disruptions were the straw that broke the camel's back and propelled the US economy into freefall. None of these require any moral abandon on Uncle Sam's part. But FWIW, I'd rather the US be a smoking radioactive wasteland that held fast to the belief that men mustn't be tortured than a smoking radioactive wasteland that didn't hold fast to the belief men mustn't be tortured. Cheery, I know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 3:23:47 GMT -5
So my question is what do we do with them?
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Mar 23, 2016 5:47:20 GMT -5
NO! x 100
We should NOT descend to that level of inhumanity. We believe we are better than the governments that practice torture ao if we engage in that tactic we only prove we are NOT.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 6:31:39 GMT -5
No one wants to post because they'd be crucified by the bleeding hearts thank you very much. If I want to get shit on, I know where to go. What a joke of a thread but I'm sure you all are happy patting yourselves on your backs about how upright and moral you all are.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 23, 2016 6:52:17 GMT -5
So my question is what do we do with them? try them in a court of law. International Court maybe? Military tribunal? Give science a vigorous kick in funding and ship them to the moon?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 23, 2016 6:56:15 GMT -5
To me, it has nothing to do with morality.
I wish I had a link to something I heard John McCain say about torture a few years back, when those awful pictures came out about the crap that we were doing in the Iraq prisons.
To put it less elegantly than Mr McCain did, torture does not work. It does not give you valuable information. It gives you a lot of questionable stuff desperate people say when tortured.
He said it also means if any of our own soldiers are captured by the enemy they will also be tortured, in retaliation for what we did to their soldiers, and the US does not want to lose the moral high ground in that argument. We want to be known as the nation that does not mistreat other captives.
Since Mr McCain is a war veteran who was held and tortured as a POW for many years, I will gladly defer to him on whether torturing captured prisoners is useful.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Mar 23, 2016 7:27:23 GMT -5
Depends on the torture: I say making them listen to Rush Limbaugh for two weeks straight could be considered torture... and I'd be o.k. with that. Waterboarding or electrodes to the genitals? Not so o.k. with that. ETA: or substitute an opinionated blowhard that's opposite of their beliefs if their beliefs line up with Rush's... how about Pat Robertson for two weeks straight instead? Next year, force them to watch the Judge Sarah show. They will fold faster than a lawn chair and give up secrets after 30 minutes of watching her. Sarah Palin Signs Deal to Preside Judge Judy-Style Over Her Own Reality TV Courtroom Just force them to listen to Judge Judy this year and they won't have to wait till next year to fold. Geeze, what a bunch of crap that show seems to be. OHHHHH, I had another idea make them listen to the queen of barking - Nancy Grace if she is still on - if not get videos to subject them too. I could go on and on but these are the first ones that popped into my head for immediate torture tactics if you have to torture and not make them wait.
And I learned something new today - Palin is having her own show - not sure that qualifies as something I need to know but will be sure to NOT watch it along with all the other dimwits that have shows like this.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 23, 2016 7:30:23 GMT -5
Just force them to listen to Judge Judy this year and they won't have to wait till next year to fold. Geeze, what a bunch of crap that show seems to be. OHHHHH, I had another idea make them listen to the queen of barking - Nancy Grace if she is still on - if not get videos to subject them too. I could go on and on but these are the first ones that popped into my head for immediate torture tactics if you have to torture and not make them wait.
And I learned something new today - Palin is having her own show - not sure that qualifies as something I need to know but will be sure to NOT watch it along with all the other dimwits that have shows like this.
Palin's show will be full of maverick-y cases.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 7:42:26 GMT -5
To me, it has nothing to do with morality.
I wish I had a link to something I heard John McCain say about torture a few years back, when those awful pictures came out about the crap that we were doing in the Iraq prisons.
To put it less elegantly than Mr McCain did, torture does not work. It does not give you valuable information. It gives you a lot of questionable stuff desperate people say when tortured.
He said it also means if any of our own soldiers are captured by the enemy they will also be tortured, in retaliation for what we did to their soldiers, and the US does not want to lose the moral high ground in that argument. We want to be known as the nation that does not mistreat other captives.
Since Mr McCain is a war veteran who was held and tortured as a POW for many years, I will gladly defer to him on whether torturing captured prisoners is useful. DJ and I had a series of debates on the effectiveness of torture in what we now call the " torture thread". I played devil's advocate and argued that torture wouldn't be used if it wasn't an effective means of getting intel. I ...somewhat... lost the debate. Most of the info either of us turned up indicated that torture generally doesn't work well and is even less effective when compared to non-torturous interrogation techniques. Just as importantly, the 2014 Senate report presents compelling evidence that torture had undermined the US "war on terror". Having said this, one of the principle arguments for why torture (EIT) hadn't turned up more info from figures like KSM was that waterboarding, etc. wasn't severe enough a form of torture to work properly (for example, see this interview with Dr. James Mitchell). Dr. Mitchell succeeded in arguing this particular point. He also succeeded in casting some doubt on the conclusions of the Senate report on torture. He made a sharp distinction between (what I'll call) "professional torture" and "non-professional torture", and argued that the former was a wellspring of intel while the latter was what the Senate report was actually condemning. You can probably imagine what DJ thought of that, and if you can't, you can read his counterarguments at the same link. In any case, there's no doubt that Mr. Cheney, Dr. Mitchell et al. believe in the effectiveness of the torture (EIT) program. I'm more convinced now than I was before the debate that this isn't a rational conclusion on their part--to say nothing of the immorality of the act--but unfortunately there's no such thing as a "slam dunk case" against torture. Or if there is, I haven't seen it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 23, 2016 7:57:04 GMT -5
To me, it has nothing to do with morality.
I wish I had a link to something I heard John McCain say about torture a few years back, when those awful pictures came out about the crap that we were doing in the Iraq prisons.
To put it less elegantly than Mr McCain did, torture does not work. It does not give you valuable information. It gives you a lot of questionable stuff desperate people say when tortured.
He said it also means if any of our own soldiers are captured by the enemy they will also be tortured, in retaliation for what we did to their soldiers, and the US does not want to lose the moral high ground in that argument. We want to be known as the nation that does not mistreat other captives.
Since Mr McCain is a war veteran who was held and tortured as a POW for many years, I will gladly defer to him on whether torturing captured prisoners is useful. DJ and I had a series of debates on the effectiveness of torture in what we now call the " torture thread". I played devil's advocate and argued that torture wouldn't be used if it wasn't an effective means of getting intel. I ...somewhat... lost the debate. Most of the info either of us turned up indicated that torture generally doesn't work well and is even less effective when compared to non-torturous interrogation techniques. Just as importantly, the 2014 Senate report presents compelling evidence that torture had undermined the US "war on terror". Having said this, one of the principle arguments for why torture (EIT) hadn't turned up more info from figures like KSM was that waterboarding, etc. wasn't severe enough a form of torture to work properly (for example, see this interview with Dr. James Mitchell). Dr. Mitchell succeeded in arguing this particular point. He also succeeded in casting some doubt on the conclusions of the Senate report on torture. He made a sharp distinction between (what I'll call) "professional torture" and "non-professional torture", and argued that the former was a wellspring of intel while the latter was what the Senate report was actually condemning. You can probably imagine what DJ thought of that, and if you can't, you can read his counterarguments at the same link. In any case, there's no doubt that Mr. Cheney, Dr. Mitchell et al. believe in the effectiveness of the torture (EIT) program. I'm more convinced now than I was before the debate that this isn't a rational conclusion on their part--to say nothing of the immorality of the act--but unfortunately there's no such thing as a "slam dunk case" against torture. Or if there is, I haven't seen it. Possibly if done by a 'professional' torture might gain some valuable information, but knowing our government, I would assume most of our torture attempts are the 'non-professional' type and worthless.
But when we stoop to torture, we are no longer the shining city on the hill - e.g. the country that believes individual liberty extends even to our enemies. We aren't setting the example of what a freedom loving democracy looks like. We become a tyrant just like our enemies.
Not that we should be 'soft' on terrorists. Give them a trial and then execute them if they're guilty, but execute them quickly, with firing squads. We should be aggressively tracking them down, infiltrating their cells, killing them in their own beds. Use force to overwhelm them. But the intelligence we need to do that should be gained from phone taps, informers and drones, not from waterboarding someone who might be nothing more than the pizza delivery guy.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 8:22:41 GMT -5
DJ and I had a series of debates on the effectiveness of torture in what we now call the " torture thread". I played devil's advocate and argued that torture wouldn't be used if it wasn't an effective means of getting intel. I ...somewhat... lost the debate. Most of the info either of us turned up indicated that torture generally doesn't work well and is even less effective when compared to non-torturous interrogation techniques. Just as importantly, the 2014 Senate report presents compelling evidence that torture had undermined the US "war on terror". Having said this, one of the principle arguments for why torture (EIT) hadn't turned up more info from figures like KSM was that waterboarding, etc. wasn't severe enough a form of torture to work properly (for example, see this interview with Dr. James Mitchell). Dr. Mitchell succeeded in arguing this particular point. He also succeeded in casting some doubt on the conclusions of the Senate report on torture. He made a sharp distinction between (what I'll call) "professional torture" and "non-professional torture", and argued that the former was a wellspring of intel while the latter was what the Senate report was actually condemning. You can probably imagine what DJ thought of that, and if you can't, you can read his counterarguments at the same link. In any case, there's no doubt that Mr. Cheney, Dr. Mitchell et al. believe in the effectiveness of the torture (EIT) program. I'm more convinced now than I was before the debate that this isn't a rational conclusion on their part--to say nothing of the immorality of the act--but unfortunately there's no such thing as a "slam dunk case" against torture. Or if there is, I haven't seen it. Possibly if done by a 'professional' torture might gain some valuable information, but knowing our government, I would assume most of our torture attempts are the 'non-professional' type and worthless.
But when we stoop to torture, we are no longer the shining city on the hill - e.g. the country that believes individual liberty extends even to our enemies. We aren't setting the example of what a freedom loving democracy looks like. We become a tyrant just like our enemies.
Not that we should be 'soft' on terrorists. Give them a trial and then execute them if they're guilty, but execute them quickly, with firing squads. We should be aggressively tracking them down, infiltrating their cells, killing them in their own beds. Use force to overwhelm them. But the intelligence we need to do that should be gained from phone taps, informers and drones, not from waterboarding someone who might be nothing more than the pizza delivery guy.
Fair enough. Agreed on almost every point. Killing them in their own beds seems extreme, unless you're using "beds" metaphorically. In-bed killings somewhat preclude the notion of a trial.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 9:51:01 GMT -5
actually, it is precisely the opposite. if the US tortures people, the terrorists win. I wouldn't go quite that far. As far as I'm concerned, the terrorists "winning" is independent from whether or not the US cedes the moral high ground. For instance, I'd consider the terrorists to have won if 90% of America's cities were decimated by suitcase nukes, half of Europeans were scared to leave their homes at night, or if terroristic disruptions were the straw that broke the camel's back and propelled the US economy into freefall. None of these require any moral abandon on Uncle Sam's part. But FWIW, I'd rather the US be a smoking radioactive wasteland that held fast to the belief that men mustn't be tortured than a smoking radioactive wasteland that didn't hold fast to the belief men mustn't be tortured. Cheery, I know. yeah, cheery. but you didn't read deeply enough into my point. part of what ISIS and other groups do is to paint the US and other Western countries as "the great Satan". the fact that this comparison is utterly lacking in introspection is to be taken for granted (we do it all the time, but i am discussing ISIS, here). the fact that we actually behave in a way that invites that comparison feeds right into that rhetorical loop, as does any use of language which indicates that we are engaged in a holy war. but yes, part of the strategy is also to send the country into freefall by having us engaged on so many fronts that we can't afford our basic lifestyles any more. ironically, you yourself have pointed out that this is precisely where we are heading with all of this, and i happen to agree- if we don't stop it.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 23, 2016 9:53:04 GMT -5
no
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