mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 23, 2016 12:21:38 GMT -5
But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't. You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:21:54 GMT -5
Very carefully qualified yesses. After all, don't want to be attacked as a hater or worse, a conservative.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:22:38 GMT -5
Nothing conservative ever is. We are the country of giving everything to everybody. But we are hated for it and it's never enough anyway. They always want more. Whether it's countries that take our money and spit on us or our own citizens i am in favor of cutting off all aid to foreign countries, starting with military aid. can we agree on that? now, back to torture. any other supporters?
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Post by dondub on Mar 23, 2016 12:23:50 GMT -5
After all, don't want to be attacked as a hater or worse, a conservative.
DJ seems to be getting attacked for being a liberal and a hater of torture.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:24:04 GMT -5
But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't. You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:24:47 GMT -5
But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't. You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. it's not only unfair, it is totally wrong. i look around me today, and i see huge crowds of people cheering when Trump says we should get tough on AQ. i see him appear on FOX and suggest that we should kill the families of terrorists, without anyone objecting to that idea strenuously. and i start to wonder if something has changed. no. nothing has changed. some of the same people who used to support torture still support it, and most that don't support it still don't support it. i am very relieved.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:25:19 GMT -5
Nothing conservative ever is. We are the country of giving everything to everybody. But we are hated for it and it's never enough anyway. They always want more. Whether it's countries that take our money and spit on us or our own citizens I don't think torture can be described as either conservative or a conservative value. It is not political. You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:26:33 GMT -5
That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry. mopred did. you did. greg did. Virgil kinda did (but kinda didn't). your question is what John Oliver would call "genuinely disruptive".
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 23, 2016 12:27:01 GMT -5
That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Thing is, zib, what you pointed out as obvious is obvious to you. It's not, on the other hand, obvious to me. I'd hazard a guess there are others to whom it's not obvious. No need to be sorry, though. We just need to be careful, as thoughtful posters, about what we surmise about others since words on a monitor are all we have to go by.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:27:14 GMT -5
I don't think torture can be described as either conservative or a conservative value. It is not political. You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally. no, you would only hear a liberal say it was OK if they personally enjoyed it.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:27:36 GMT -5
That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. it's not only unfair, it is totally wrong. i look around me today, and i see huge crowds of people cheering when Trump says we should get tough on AQ. i see him appear on FOX and suggest that we should kill the families of terrorists, without anyone objecting to that idea strenuously. and i start to wonder if something has changed. no. nothing has changed. some of the same people who used to support torture still support it, and most that don't support it still don't support it. i am very relieved. I'm not a fan of trump but doesn't it make you wonder why he is so popular regardless of media and other attempts to silence him? Because people are afraid and realize this country and its so-called leaders are ineffective.
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Post by Opti on Mar 23, 2016 12:28:34 GMT -5
That's not really fair, zib. We don't know what's in another's mind. We can guess but we can't say what another is seeking, or what's really behind any question asked; our guesses, in these cases, are based on our own thoughts and opinions since that's what we know. Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? apparently you and Greg so far. It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry. I think his goal was to find out who supported Trump's stance on torture and who did not? But that's a guess, not fact.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:29:14 GMT -5
incidentally, being against torture isn't really a "bandwagon". the US is signatory to the TAT. it is LAW, both here in the US, and internationally.
obeying the law is not really "hopping on the bandwagon". it is just obeying the law. it is part of being what was once known as "civilized".
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 12:29:33 GMT -5
Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked. Is that the response you were trolling for dj? The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice? I'd beg God to intervene or to send me a sign to direct my actions. I sincerely believe He'd do one or both. But to humour the skeptics among us: barring God's intervention or instruction, and presuming I was still in control of my faculties (i.e. not in a state of panic), I'd leave the lever in its original position. The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice? As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? In this case I'd simply pray for God's intervention, since I know what His answer would be with respect to shoving a fat man off a bridge to stop a trolley. Skeptically: Again presuming I was still in control of my faculties, and presuming jumping in front of the trolley myself wasn't an option, I'd let the event unfold. I wouldn't sacrifice the fat man to save the others. What about you?
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:29:37 GMT -5
Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry. mopred did. you did. greg did. Virgil kinda did (but kinda didn't). your question is what John Oliver would call "genuinely disruptive". It's disruptive because I don't agree with you. I wasn't even going to enter this "debate" and deleted my post from yesterday because it didn't convey sarcasm.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:29:55 GMT -5
it's not only unfair, it is totally wrong. i look around me today, and i see huge crowds of people cheering when Trump says we should get tough on AQ. i see him appear on FOX and suggest that we should kill the families of terrorists, without anyone objecting to that idea strenuously. and i start to wonder if something has changed. no. nothing has changed. some of the same people who used to support torture still support it, and most that don't support it still don't support it. i am very relieved. I'm not a fan of trump but doesn't it make you wonder why he is so popular regardless of media and other attempts to silence him? Because people are afraid and realize this country and its so-called leaders are ineffective. oh no. i don't wonder at all. the weakest leaders always appeal to our fears.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:30:52 GMT -5
incidentally, being against torture isn't really a "bandwagon". the US is signatory to the TAT. it is LAW, both here in the US, and internationally. obeying the law is not really "hopping on the bandwagon". it is just obeying the law. it is part of being what was once known as "civilized". Laws are rarely obeyed or even enforced in this country unless the system stands to gain from them being enforced.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:31:18 GMT -5
mopred did. you did. greg did. Virgil kinda did (but kinda didn't). your question is what John Oliver would call "genuinely disruptive". It's disruptive because I don't agree with you. I wasn't even going to enter this "debate" and deleted my post from yesterday because it didn't convey sarcasm. no, it's disruptive because you are questioning a fact that can be ascertained by reading the thread. but i am glad you were being sarcastic. i don't think that the other three were, tho.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 23, 2016 12:31:54 GMT -5
I don't think torture can be described as either conservative or a conservative value. It is not political. You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally. I don't think you'd find a lot of people on either side of the political divide advocating for torture. We're Americans. Torture is not something our country, as a whole, has deemed righteous. It goes against our ideas of what's best, and right, and true to our country's heart, so to speak. I don't really look at it as a political issue. Then again, I'll admit I look at few things as political issues, really. I tend to a broader view of most things than to try to confine them to the political arena. For me, doing so just mucks things up.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:32:52 GMT -5
No, I was being sarcastic when I posted what a great thread this was. Anyway, I'm out. Have fun.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:33:10 GMT -5
You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally. I don't think you'd find a lot of people on either side of the political divide advocating for torture. We're Americans. Torture is not something our country, as a whole, has deemed righteous. It goes against our ideas of what's best, and right, and true to our country's heart, so to speak. I don't really look at it as a political issue. Then again, I'll admit I look at few things as political issues, really. I tend to a broader view of most things than to try to confine them to the political arena. For me, doing so just mucks things up.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:34:21 GMT -5
No, I was being sarcastic when I posted what a great thread this was. Anyway, I'm out. Have fun. that's fine- but i am not going to persecute or chastise anyone who thinks we should torture. but i will be unsparing in my criticism of that position.
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:35:27 GMT -5
It's still your right to do so. You're a better person than I am in this regard.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:35:28 GMT -5
The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice? I'd beg God to intervene or to send me a sign to direct my actions. I sincerely believe He'd do one or both. But to humour the skeptics among us: barring God's intervention or instruction, and presuming I was still in control of my faculties (i.e. not in a state of panic), I'd leave the lever in its original position. As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? In this case I'd simply pray for God's intervention, since I know what His answer would be with respect to shoving a fat man off a bridge to stop a trolley. Skeptically: Again presuming I was still in control of my faculties, and presuming jumping in front of the trolley myself wasn't an option, I'd let the event unfold. I wouldn't sacrifice the fat man to save the others. What about you? thought experiments require you to not entertain any options not given in the thought experiment.
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 23, 2016 12:35:58 GMT -5
The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice? I'd beg God to intervene or to send me a sign to direct my actions. I sincerely believe He'd do one or both. But to humour the skeptics among us: barring God's intervention or instruction, and presuming I was still in control of my faculties (i.e. not in a state of panic), I'd leave the lever in its original position. As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? In this case I'd simply pray for God's intervention, since I know what His answer would be with respect to shoving a fat man off a bridge to stop a trolley. Skeptically: Again presuming I was still in control of my faculties, and presuming jumping in front of the trolley myself wasn't an option, I'd let the event unfold. I wouldn't sacrifice the fat man to save the others. What about you? As a thought process, I believe that the killing of one to save 5 is the more moral decision, even if that means actively causing the death of the one. If I tried to think of what I would actively do in real life, I am not sure I could knowingly cause the death of someone, which goes to show that I am not a rational person.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:37:21 GMT -5
It's still your right to do so. You're a better person than I am in this regard. i think you are every bit as good as me, zib. let's not go there.
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 23, 2016 12:37:31 GMT -5
I don't think torture can be described as either conservative or a conservative value. It is not political. You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally. You get many conservatives like McCain who are very much against torture. He's conservative. In fact a lot of military people with experience in the field come out against torture, and I would guess that people in the military are more likely to be conservative rather than liberal.
When people like Trump, people with zero experience with the military in general, or with international politics or terrorism specifically, make pro-torture statements, I tend to put those in the same category as men giving opinions on how to deal with menstrual cramps. That is - if you have no knowledge about something, your opinion isn't that important to me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:38:35 GMT -5
I'd beg God to intervene or to send me a sign to direct my actions. I sincerely believe He'd do one or both. But to humour the skeptics among us: barring God's intervention or instruction, and presuming I was still in control of my faculties (i.e. not in a state of panic), I'd leave the lever in its original position. In this case I'd simply pray for God's intervention, since I know what His answer would be with respect to shoving a fat man off a bridge to stop a trolley. Skeptically: Again presuming I was still in control of my faculties, and presuming jumping in front of the trolley myself wasn't an option, I'd let the event unfold. I wouldn't sacrifice the fat man to save the others. What about you? As a thought process, I believe that the killing of one to save 5 is the more moral decision, even if that means actively causing the death of the one. If I tried to think of what I would actively do in real life, I am not sure I could knowingly cause the death of someone. the ability to act has nothing to do with the question. it is designed to make you consider what your values are. what you just expressed is utilitarian, and i am pretty sure that is what it was designed to induce.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 12:39:01 GMT -5
Very true. I apologize for pointing out the obvious. Who would ever approve of torture on this board out loud? It seemed apparent to me what the goal was but since I'm wrong, I'm sorry. mopred did. you did. greg did. Virgil kinda did (but kinda didn't). your question is what John Oliver would call "genuinely disruptive". I don't support torture in any way, shape, or form. I'm merely less convinced than you that it has no utility, even compared to non-torturous interrogation. That's an academic position. It's not an endorsement of torture. The moral argument on torture is very plain: it's an abomination; as cruel and faithless as human acts come. Government using torture as a means of extracting intel is likewise abominable.
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 23, 2016 12:39:53 GMT -5
As a thought process, I believe that the killing of one to save 5 is the more moral decision, even if that means actively causing the death of the one. If I tried to think of what I would actively do in real life, I am not sure I could knowingly cause the death of someone. the ability to act has nothing to do with the question. it is designed to make you consider what your values are. what you just expressed is utilitarian, and i am pretty sure that is what it was designed to induce. I am not sure that is what it was designed to induce, or just what most people are.
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