djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:42:44 GMT -5
mopred did. you did. greg did. Virgil kinda did (but kinda didn't). your question is what John Oliver would call "genuinely disruptive". I don't support torture in any way, shape, or form. I'm merely less convinced than you that it has no utility, even compared to non-torturous interrogation. That's an academic position. It's not an endorsement of torture. The moral argument on torture is very plain: it's an abomination; as cruel and faithless as human acts come. Government using torture as a means of extracting intel is likewise abominable. i didn't say it has "no utility". i think the expression i used is that it has "no material value". what i meant by that is that other, more moral means, are just as likely (if not more likely) to achieve the same ends, and therefore it should pretty much NEVER be used. i never said that you said it was moral, btw.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:44:18 GMT -5
the ability to act has nothing to do with the question. it is designed to make you consider what your values are. what you just expressed is utilitarian, and i am pretty sure that is what it was designed to induce. I am not sure that is what it was designed to induce, or just what most people are. i am pretty sure it is designed to induce a utilitarian response, in this case. another response is that "there is no right choice", which is what a moral absolutist would say. there is a second question you ask that person: given that fact, what choice would you make?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Mar 23, 2016 12:45:17 GMT -5
"You certainly would never see a liberal saying it's okay to do, unless it effected them personally"
I may not be very liberal but I do fall into that category more than in the conservative one. I said I'd be fine with it under certain circumstances and not necessarily if they affected me personally. Still believe in the safety of the many over the inherent rights of one or few.
Is torture an effective method of obtaining reliable information? Definetly not! Most of what you would get is lies but in any lie in order to be credible it's gotta have a grain of truth. Splicing to find that grain is the real labor.
And no, I would not enjoy doing it since I am against violence of any kind but I would do it if I'd have to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 12:48:05 GMT -5
I'm capable of doing what needs to be done, depending on the situation. When someone kills, say 130 innocent people, what's a little physical inducement to get information.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:51:33 GMT -5
I'm capable of doing what needs to be done, depending on the situation. When someone kills, say 130 innocent people, what's a little physical inducement to get information. would you prefer that i didn't respond to this, or was it designed to induce a response?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Mar 23, 2016 12:54:04 GMT -5
Really? You expected a profoundly liberal board and posters to get on and say torture is a good thing? How about I get on and say minimum wage should be $29 an hour and free health and daycare and education for all? How many no's would I get? Maybe 10 at the most. Trolling you were but I know how to get people on my bandwagon too. Profoundly liberal? What board are you posting on?
And why are you so irrationally angry that some people are against torture?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 23, 2016 12:55:27 GMT -5
Because I feel we are in very real trouble as a country and as a world because we try to be civilized in our dealings with uncivilized people That's like trying to reason with a two year old.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Mar 23, 2016 12:58:11 GMT -5
Very carefully qualified yesses. After all, don't want to be attacked as a hater or worse, a conservative. You and a few other conservatives have such a persecution complex. I'm pretty sure there are just as many conservatives on the board as liberals, but I only ever seem to see conservatives crying about how they are so outnumbered by the big old meanie liberals.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 23, 2016 12:58:19 GMT -5
In Jane Mayer's excellent book, linked earlier, she cites numerous Bush admin officials, FBI agents, military lawyers, and CIA officials that were opposed to torture on various grounds. These are hardly bastions of liberalism.
Here is a link to an interesting group:
tortureaccountability.org/richard_cheney
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 12:59:04 GMT -5
Really? You expected a profoundly liberal board and posters to get on and say torture is a good thing? How about I get on and say minimum wage should be $29 an hour and free health and daycare and education for all? How many no's would I get? Maybe 10 at the most. Trolling you were but I know how to get people on my bandwagon too. Profoundly liberal? What board are you posting on?
And why are you so irrationally angry that some people are against torture?
i think zib is done here, but we had a nice discussion about this before she left. zib and others seem to think that they were being "called out" for being pro-torture. but that was not my intention AT ALL. it has been several years since this topic came up, and i wondered, with all of the Trump Mania if public opinion had changed on this issue. i was GENUINELY CURIOUS about that. but zib is probably right. the people who think torture is just ducky are probably too embarrassed or protective to say so. and that is fine. what i figured was that if there was no opposition to torture, this thread would die a quiet death. it is heartening that it has not.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Mar 23, 2016 12:59:40 GMT -5
Because I feel we are in very real trouble as a country and as a world because we try to be civilized in our dealings with uncivilized people That's like trying to reason with a two year old. So, in your opinion more torture is what we need to get back on track? That's the thing to get worked up over that we're not doing enough of? the solution to getting our country "out of trouble"?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:00:00 GMT -5
Because I feel we are in very real trouble as a country and as a world because we try to be civilized in our dealings with uncivilized people That's like trying to reason with a two year old. interesting analogy. so, when you are engaged with a two year old that is throwing a tantrum, is your approach with them to throw a tantrum?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 13:03:03 GMT -5
I'm capable of doing what needs to be done, depending on the situation. When someone kills, say 130 innocent people, what's a little physical inducement to get information. would you prefer that i didn't respond to this, or was it designed to induce a response? We both well know our stance on controlled violence. No need for a tiresome rehash. Just my simplest answer to your OP's question. If you didn't want that possible answer, you wouldn't of started the thread
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 23, 2016 13:13:59 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Side_(book)
Definitive book by Jane Mayer about this topic. Part of it tells the story of Al-Libi, tortured until he lied that there was a connection between Saddam and Osama. Guess what happened next.
www.alternet.org/story/139998/was_tortured_cia_%22ghost_prisoner%22_murdered
So I would gladly be called a bleeding heart by any poster too timid to admit they support torture than to be one of the fascists that supported Bush lying us into his stupid war, featuring the deaths of thousands of American heroes, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraquis, (family value~pro-life politicians and their dupes), and blowback from the Middle East that continues apace. Just ask the Belgiums. Thank you for these links. I like how the article shows that if you are searching for a particular answer, you are more likely to torture to get a lie that will make you happy, than an actionable truth.
From the second link-
when the Senate report was published, it emerged that an Army psychiatrist had told the committee
a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al-Qaeda and Iraq," but that "we were not successful in establishing a link," and that, as a result, "there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."
as Newsweek reported in 2007, the circumstances of his "confession" could hardly have been less conducive to the discovery of the truth. As the magazine explained, he told his debriefers that "he initially told his interrogators that he 'knew nothing' about ties between Baghdad and Osama bin Laden and he 'had difficulty even coming up with a story' about a relationship between the two." However, "his answers displeased his interrogators," who then subjected him to a mock burial, imprisoning him for 17 hours in "a box less than 20 inches high." When the box was opened, al-Libi "said he was given one final opportunity to 'tell the truth.' He was knocked to the floor and 'punched for 15 minutes.' It was only then that, al-Libi said, he made up the story about Iraqi weapons training."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 13:18:24 GMT -5
Because I feel we are in very real trouble as a country and as a world because we try to be civilized in our dealings with uncivilized people That's like trying to reason with a two year old. So, in your opinion more torture is what we need to get back on track? That's the thing to get worked up over that we're not doing enough of? the solution to getting our country "out of trouble"? I know this post was not to me but I will respond anyway. First, I don't agree with torture. Second, Do you believe the drone strikes are an effective solution? Third, Do you have an effective solution and what would that be?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:21:24 GMT -5
would you prefer that i didn't respond to this, or was it designed to induce a response? We both well know our stance on controlled violence. No need for a tiresome rehash. Just my simplest answer to your OP's question. If you didn't want that possible answer, you wouldn't of started the thread quite correct. and i think you answered my question.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:22:19 GMT -5
So, in your opinion more torture is what we need to get back on track? That's the thing to get worked up over that we're not doing enough of? the solution to getting our country "out of trouble"? I know this post was not to me but I will respond anyway. First, I don't agree with torture. Second, Do you believe the drone strikes are an effective solution? Third, Do you have an effective solution and what would that be?
i am opposed to drone strikes. but then again, i am opposed to war, as a general rule.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:29:29 GMT -5
i want to point out that TRUMP is the one who brought this subject up, not me.
this is a POLICY STATEMENT, and i wanted to find out how many here agreed with the POLICY.
not many, i am gathering.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 13:30:36 GMT -5
I don't support torture in any way, shape, or form. I'm merely less convinced than you that it has no utility, even compared to non-torturous interrogation. That's an academic position. It's not an endorsement of torture. The moral argument on torture is very plain: it's an abomination; as cruel and faithless as human acts come. Government using torture as a means of extracting intel is likewise abominable. i didn't say it has "no utility". i think the expression i used is that it has "no material value". what i meant by that is that other, more moral means, are just as likely (if not more likely) to achieve the same ends, and therefore it should pretty much NEVER be used. i never said that you said it was moral, btw. You suggested that I was equivocal in my opposition to it, and that's not true. I don't support it under any circumstances. When I say "utility", I mean with respect to non-torturous interrogation. I agree with you that torture typically won't succeed anywhere that standard interrogation methods wouldn't, but I have my doubts, especially for "ticking time bomb" situations where any intel is easily verifiable on a rapid interval.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 23, 2016 13:32:35 GMT -5
Cynic popping in here for a minute!
When the question is "Bring Back Torture, Yes or No" I have to ask: you're assuming it actually ever went away?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:34:07 GMT -5
i didn't say it has "no utility". i think the expression i used is that it has "no material value". what i meant by that is that other, more moral means, are just as likely (if not more likely) to achieve the same ends, and therefore it should pretty much NEVER be used. i never said that you said it was moral, btw. You suggested that I was equivocal in my opposition to it, and that's not true. I don't support it under any circumstances. When I say "utility", I mean with respect to non-torturous interrogation. I agree with you that torture typically won't succeed anywhere that standard interrogation methods wouldn't, but I have my doubts, especially for "ticking time bomb" situations where any intel is easily verifiable on a rapid interval. i couldn't figure out what your position was based on your first post. but thanks for clearing it up.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 13:34:41 GMT -5
Cynic popping in here for a minute!
When the question is "Bring Back Torture, Yes or No" I have to ask: you're assuming it actually ever went away? yeah, i am assuming that. edit: actually, The Donald is assuming that. i am merely repeating his assumptions and suggestions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 13:43:27 GMT -5
I know this post was not to me but I will respond anyway. First, I don't agree with torture. Second, Do you believe the drone strikes are an effective solution? Third, Do you have an effective solution and what would that be?
i am opposed to drone strikes. but then again, i am opposed to war, as a general rule. As a general rule meaning you are opposed to your country going to war to defend itself under any circumstances?
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Mar 23, 2016 13:46:46 GMT -5
The least satisfying answers I've read are those which assert that torture does not and cannot elicit important truths.
I realize it is a popular rationale, but popularity does not make it true. If it were, bookies would never get paid and neither would loan sharks. People want to avoid physical pain and they will go to great lengths to avoid it. Agreed that lying is one way to try and avoid it, but at its best lying will only potentially defer the timing of the pain, not eliminate it.
I have no problem with those who oppose all torture all the time, but ludicrously inept attempts at reading the minds of torturers and their victims as creatures of considered rational action are intellectually insulting.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 23, 2016 14:00:37 GMT -5
I must have missed those posts. Which ones are they again?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 14:15:51 GMT -5
i am opposed to drone strikes. but then again, i am opposed to war, as a general rule. As a general rule meaning you are opposed to your country going to war to defend itself under any circumstances?
no, i am opposed to aggression. since WW2, every action we have undertaken would fall into that category (for me).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 14:19:07 GMT -5
The least satisfying answers I've read are those which assert that torture does not and cannot elicit important truths. what posts would those be? surely none of mine. my posts express that this point is irrelevant. if i loan you $20, and then later beat you unconscious, open your wallet, and get it back, i think you could say that beating the shit out of you "worked" to get my $20 back. however, if ASKING you for my $20 would have got the same result, it does not EXCUSE the beating the shit out of you part. understood?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 23, 2016 16:05:35 GMT -5
The least satisfying answers I've read are those which assert that torture does not and cannot elicit important truths. what posts would those be? surely none of mine. my posts express that this point is irrelevant. if i loan you $20, and then later beat you unconscious, open your wallet, and get it back, i think you could say that beating the shit out of you "worked" to get my $20 back. however, if ASKING you for my $20 would have got the same result, it does not EXCUSE the beating the shit out of you part. understood? I believe he's saying that there are loan sharks that rely exclusively on non-violent techniques to coerce clients into repaying and loan sharks that are willing to put crowbars to kneecaps, and the latter are considerably more successful than the former. The analogy is somewhat contrived in the sense that the loan shark isn't looking for intel, but I'm betting verrip's conclusion is right.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 23, 2016 16:59:35 GMT -5
what posts would those be? surely none of mine. my posts express that this point is irrelevant. if i loan you $20, and then later beat you unconscious, open your wallet, and get it back, i think you could say that beating the shit out of you "worked" to get my $20 back. however, if ASKING you for my $20 would have got the same result, it does not EXCUSE the beating the shit out of you part. understood? I believe he's saying that there are loan sharks that rely exclusively on non-violent techniques to coerce clients into repaying and loan sharks that are willing to put crowbars to kneecaps, and the latter are considerably more successful than the former. The analogy is somewhat contrived in the sense that the loan shark isn't looking for intel, but I'm betting verrip's conclusion is right. his conclusion is right, but nobody said that torture never resulted in good intel. my entire point is that whether it does or not, it doesn't excuse torture. i know we agree, so it would be nice if you would at least acknowledge the point.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 18:16:57 GMT -5
Would it be considered "torture" if the "women must be covered from head to foot" people were forced to watch "Girls Gone Wild" videos for 14 days straight (with a few hours a day for sleeping allowed)?
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