Bring Back Torture, Yes or No?

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 7:57:04 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Mar 23, 2016 7:42:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

DJ and I had a series of debates on the effectiveness of torture in what we now call the "torture thread". I played devil's advocate and argued that torture wouldn't be used if it wasn't an effective means of getting intel.

I ...somewhat... lost the debate. Most of the info either of us turned up indicated that torture generally doesn't work well and is even less effective when compared to non-torturous interrogation techniques. Just as importantly, the 2014 Senate report presents compelling evidence that torture had undermined the US "war on terror".

Having said this, one of the principle arguments for why torture (EIT) hadn't turned up more info from figures like KSM was that waterboarding, etc. wasn't severe enough a form of torture to work properly (for example, see this interview with Dr. James Mitchell). Dr. Mitchell succeeded in arguing this particular point. He also succeeded in casting some doubt on the conclusions of the Senate report on torture. He made a sharp distinction between (what I'll call) "professional torture" and "non-professional torture", and argued that the former was a wellspring of intel while the latter was what the Senate report was actually condemning. You can probably imagine what DJ thought of that, and if you can't, you can read his counterarguments at the same link.

In any case, there's no doubt that Mr. Cheney, Dr. Mitchell et al. believe in the effectiveness of the torture (EIT) program. I'm more convinced now than I was before the debate that this isn't a rational conclusion on their part--to say nothing of the immorality of the act--but unfortunately there's no such thing as a "slam dunk case" against torture. Or if there is, I haven't seen it.

Possibly if done by a 'professional' torture might gain some valuable information, but knowing our government, I would assume most of our torture attempts are the 'non-professional' type and worthless.  

But when we stoop to torture, we are no longer the shining city on the hill - e.g. the country that believes individual liberty extends even to our enemies. We aren't setting the example of what a freedom loving democracy looks like. We become a tyrant just like our enemies.

Not that we should be 'soft' on terrorists. Give them a trial and then execute them if they're guilty, but execute them quickly, with firing squads. We should be aggressively tracking them down, infiltrating their cells, killing them in their own beds. Use force to overwhelm them. But the intelligence we need to do that should be gained from phone taps, informers and drones, not from waterboarding someone who might be nothing more than the pizza delivery guy.  

there is no evidence that torture yields more useful information.

there is, however, abundant evidence that torture yields false confessions, and a ton of useless information.

[NoNamePerson]

Mar 23, 2016 7:30:23 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Mar 23, 2016 7:27:23 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Just force them to listen to Judge Judy this year and they won't have to wait till next year to fold. Geeze, what a bunch of crap that show seems to be. OHHHHH, I had another idea make them listen to the queen of barking - Nancy Grace if she is still on - if not get videos to subject them too.  I could go on and on but these are the first ones that popped into my head for immediate torture tactics if you have to torture and not make them wait.

And I learned something new today - Palin is having her own show - not sure that qualifies as something I need to know but will be sure to NOT watch it along with all the other dimwits that have shows like this. 

Palin's show will be full of maverick-y cases.

Is that the new word for all the stupid "judge shows" I only watched judge judy once but it was because I had TV on and was peeling shrimp and didn't want to stop, wash hands, etc to change channel. What a nightmare that was. A whole generation is growing up thinking that is what it will be like if they have to go to court   There should be a law against these types of shows  

[mroped]

Under certain circumstances hell yes!
-child abduction- if one is proven to have abducted a child and doesn't wanna disclose where he has the child, I'd like to torture him myself especialy if it is my child the one missing.
- credible terroristic threat on US soil. Suspects in custody. War zone - no torture since is an active war zone. That falls under the rules of engagement.

I don't see the need for torture to find out whom the head honcho drug lord is.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 7:42:26 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Mar 23, 2016 6:56:15 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

To me, it has nothing to do with morality.

I wish I had a link to something I heard John McCain say about torture a few years back, when those awful pictures came out about the crap that we were doing in the Iraq prisons.

To put it less elegantly than Mr McCain did, torture does not work. It does not give you valuable information. It gives you a lot of questionable stuff desperate people say when tortured.

He said it also means if any of our own soldiers are captured by the enemy they will also be tortured, in retaliation for what we did to their soldiers, and the US does not want to lose the moral high ground in that argument. We want to be known as the nation that does not mistreat other captives.

Since Mr McCain is a war veteran who was held and tortured as a POW for many years, I will gladly defer to him on whether torturing captured prisoners is useful.

DJ and I had a series of debates on the effectiveness of torture in what we now call the "torture thread". I played devil's advocate and argued that torture wouldn't be used if it wasn't an effective means of getting intel.

I ...somewhat... lost the debate. Most of the info either of us turned up indicated that torture generally doesn't work well and is even less effective when compared to non-torturous interrogation techniques. Just as importantly, the 2014 Senate report presents compelling evidence that torture had undermined the US "war on terror".

Having said this, one of the principle arguments for why torture (EIT) hadn't turned up more info from figures like KSM was that waterboarding, etc. wasn't severe enough a form of torture to work properly (for example, see this interview with Dr. James Mitchell). Dr. Mitchell succeeded in arguing this particular point. He also succeeded in casting some doubt on the conclusions of the Senate report on torture. He made a sharp distinction between (what I'll call) "professional torture" and "non-professional torture", and argued that the former was a wellspring of intel while the latter was what the Senate report was actually condemning. You can probably imagine what DJ thought of that, and if you can't, you can read his counterarguments at the same link.

In any case, there's no doubt that Mr. Cheney, Dr. Mitchell et al. believe in the effectiveness of the torture (EIT) program. I'm more convinced now than I was before the debate that this isn't a rational conclusion on their part--to say nothing of the immorality of the act--but unfortunately there's no such thing as a "slam dunk case" against torture. Or if there is, I haven't seen it.

my reaction was that the same distinction can be made of professional -vs- unprofessional interrogation of a non-torturous kind.

you make it seem like i completely freaked out our something.  i didn't.  i am pretty calm when i have all the facts i need to dispatch an argument.

[gregintenn]

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

[ArchietheDragon]

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

[ArchietheDragon]

Mar 23, 2016 10:44:53 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by putting something very heavy in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you – your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

i wasn't trolling, greg.  i just wanted to make sure that there was no seachange in opinion on this issue.

the ticking time bomb is a thought experiment to make a case for "exigent circumstances".  whether that passes or fails
has no bearing on the general use of torture which is widely regarded both as immoral and ineffective.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 10:44:53 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?

/\ this is another example of a thought experiment.  the ticking time bomb scenario is one of the very few thought experiments to make it out of the ivory tower and into popular culture, mostly thanks to the series "24".  but it is good to remember that, like the one archie listed, these are HYPOTHETICAL, designed to sharpen the options- and not real world.  the only thing close to the ticking time bomb happened in London, where after the bombers were captured, they were interrogated.  there was another bombing planned, but it failed- not due to intelligence, but because the bombs didn't go off.  in that situation, the torture would have yielded the same result.  that is the one and only time that i know of that this scenario could be tested, and the result would have been highly immoral.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 10:46:41 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

I'd put a bar on the track and derail the trolley.

But I guess that isn't one of the choices.

no, that is called "cheating the test". 

the whole point of the thought experiment is to stick with the options given.  most people have a hard time with that. 

[happyhoix]

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

The problem is, unless this is on a show like 24, jihad John won't give you the info that you need.

We are much more successful eavesdropping on their conversations and infiltrating their ranks. Or paying one of them a lot of money to be a double agent. That's how you get the really valuable information.

We've thwarted a lot of potential attacks in the States since 911, and if you look back through how we discovered what was going to happen, you won't find anyone who got water boarded and confessed.

I understand how vengeance is a fun thing, but it pays to use the techniques that work, not the ones that are fun.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 10:52:25 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

The problem is, unless this is on a show like 24, jihad John won't give you the info that you need.

We are much more successful eavesdropping on their conversations and infiltrating their ranks. Or paying one of them a lot of money to be a double agent. That's how you get the really valuable information.

We've thwarted a lot of potential attacks in the States since 911, and if you look back through how we discovered what was going to happen, you won't find anyone who got water boarded and confessed.

I understand how vengeance is a fun thing, but it pays to use the techniques that work, not the ones that are fun.

that is one possibility.  the other is that JJ will give it to you without torture.  a good interrogator is every bit as good at extracting information as a torturer.

KSM was waterboarded over 150 times, because....i guess 149 wasn't enough?  gmafb.

[dondub]

 They Said ‘No’ to Torture: The Real Heroes of the Bush Years

www.thenation.com/article/they-said-no-torture-real-heroes-bush-years/

[dondub]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Side_(book)

Definitive book by Jane Mayer about this topic. Part of it tells the story of Al-Libi, tortured until he lied that there was a connection between Saddam and Osama. Guess what happened next.

www.alternet.org/story/139998/was_tortured_cia_%22ghost_prisoner%22_murdered

 So I would gladly be called a bleeding heart by any poster too timid to admit they support torture than to be one of the fascists that supported Bush lying us into his stupid war,

featuring the deaths of thousands of American heroes, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraquis, (family value~pro-life politicians and their dupes), and blowback from the Middle

East that continues apace. Just ask the Belgiums.

[mroped]

If your hypothetical fat man is the one that tied people on the tracks I'd push him over in a heartbeat!
Jihadi John or whatever his name is while a terrorist he is not the brains behind the operation and his only skills are fluency in English and a cruel soul. He never planed or perpetrated a terroristic action on US soil. At least none that I/we know about.
If he were to do that on US soil while being proven that he was behind other actions than yes, torture the hell out of him untill he tells all his plans and then put him out of his misery.
Right now he is doing that in a war zone, in a part of the world that we shouldn't even be. Did we think that that kind of behavior will not show up at some point? All wars have things like this hapening.
While water boarding is considered a cruel method of torture, it is not the most creative or most painful one. It is to that mater more psychological than physical and it will not work on all subjects. Pain on the other hand, works on a higher percentage!
Just my opinion.

[Deleted]

The drone attacks under Obama are really working well to stop the spread of terrorism also.

[zibazinski]

Mar 23, 2016 10:46:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:42:15 GMT -5 gregintenn said:

Raise your hand if you would refrain from torturing jihad John if you knew doing so would prevent n.y.c. or l.a. from being nuked.

Is that the response you were trolling for dj?

i wasn't trolling, greg.  i just wanted to make sure that there was no seachange in opinion on this issue.

the ticking time bomb is a thought experiment to make a case for "exigent circumstances".  whether that passes or fails
has no bearing on the general use of torture which is widely regarded both as immoral and ineffective.c

I don't find it immoral and I'm unsure given as we the people are never told if it's effective or not. Considering I feel terrorists are cowards I think it might be very effective. Depending on method used. After gleaning all information out of them quietly get rid of them. Yelling out to the world that we torture is just plain stupid. But we're civilized which is why we and countries like us are doomed.  Turning the other cheek just gets that one slapped, too.

[zibazinski]

But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't. You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. 

[dondub]

  The torture of Al-Libi was very effective. His lies enabled the neo-cons of PNAC to sell their war on Iraq which has made billions and billions for Halliburton, Brown-Root,

The Carlyle Group and others with many direct ties to the BushCo. war mongers. Sure he lied to get it to stop. But the lie was very effective in convincing closet American

fascists to get all gung ho and attach flags to their cars and say "if you aren't with us you are against us".

 I'm still against them and always will be. They are simply mindless dupes and anti-American that they would agree to sell our soul so easily.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 11:59:43 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:46:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wasn't trolling, greg.  i just wanted to make sure that there was no seachange in opinion on this issue.

the ticking time bomb is a thought experiment to make a case for "exigent circumstances".  whether that passes or fails
has no bearing on the general use of torture which is widely regarded both as immoral and ineffective.c

I don't find it immoral and I'm unsure given as we the people are never told if it's effective or not. Considering I feel terrorists are cowards I think it might be very effective. Depending on method used. After gleaning all information out of them quietly get rid of them. Yelling out to the world that we torture is just plain stupid. But we're civilized which is why we and countries like us are doomed.  Turning the other cheek just gets that one slapped, too.

torture is an inversion of what we normally think of as justice- you are being punished without ever having been convicted of a crime.  this is not to mention that the punishment is inherently "cruel and unusual", so it fails to pass that test, as well.  because of that combination, it is quite common for perfectly innocent people to be tortured.  people like me.  people like you.

if that does not fit within your spectrum of "immoral", then i have to wonder why.

the efficacy of torture is actually a side show, but it doesn't fare well in that analysis, either.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 12:01:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't.

no, zib.  i was doing no such thing.  i said why i posted this thread, and i was being truthful.  some days i wonder if everyone other than me has changed their minds about certain things.  call it insecurity.  but that is really why i posted this.  i don't hate on anyone other than the haters. 

You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. 

not looking for pats.  i am looking for people who share my view.  period. 

you'd be better off not speculating about the feelings and objectives of posters- unless you enjoy being wrong, that is.

[zibazinski]

Don't need to wonder why it's not important to you or anyone else. Just my opinion.

[dondub]

  How interesting that the OP is coming under fire for this thread from an obviously pro-torture individual. Yes, let's shoot the messenger, support more torture, have many more Americans die because of it, continue this middle east imbroglio into the distant future, and then pretend that all of our demented behavior is the only choice we have to solve this worldwide crisis. 

[zibazinski]

Really? You expected a profoundly liberal board and posters to get on and say torture is a good thing? How about I get on and say minimum wage should be $29 an hour and free health and daycare and education for all? How many no's would I get? Maybe 10 at the most. Trolling you were but I know how to get people on my bandwagon too.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 12:12:09 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Don't need to wonder why it's not important to you or anyone else. Just my opinion.

why what is not important?

[zibazinski]

Mar 23, 2016 12:12:03 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Mar 23, 2016 12:01:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

But, yes, DJ, you were looking for everyone to jump on your bandwagon or be ready to hate on those that didn't.

no, zib.  i was doing no such thing.  i said why i posted this thread, and i was being truthful.  some days i wonder if everyone other than me has changed their minds about certain things.  call it insecurity.  but that is really why i posted this.  i don't hate on anyone other than the haters. 

You got the pats on your back that you were looking for. 

not looking for pats.  i am looking for people who share my view.  period. 

you'd be better off not speculating about the feelings and objectives of posters- unless you enjoy being wrong, that is.

You aren't insecure and you're never wrong. I've gotten that much from your posts. But you do love to argue, I've gotten that, too. What would make you think torture would be approved on this board? It never would be. Ever.

[zibazinski]

Nothing conservative ever is. We are the country of giving everything to everybody. But we are hated for it and it's never enough anyway. They always want more. Whether it's countries that take our money and spit on us or our own citizens

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 12:14:47 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Really? You expected a profoundly liberal board and posters to get on and say torture is a good thing? How about I get on and say minimum wage should be $29 an hour and free health and daycare and education for all? How many no's would I get? Maybe 10 at the most. Trolling you were but I know how to get people on my bandwagon too.

this board is not profoundly liberal.  is it time to survey again?  last time we did it, it was about 50/50.

and i am among the most liberal members of this board, and i have repeatedly said that half that amount is too much.  so, i am guessing you are way off on that.  but let's find out.

[djAdvocate]

Mar 23, 2016 12:17:10 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Mar 23, 2016 12:12:03 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

not looking for pats.  i am looking for people who share my view.  period. 

you'd be better off not speculating about the feelings and objectives of posters- unless you enjoy being wrong, that is.

You aren't insecure and you're never wrong. I've gotten that much from your posts.

i appreciate the flattery, but i assure you that you are wrong on both counts.

But you do love to argue, I've gotten that, too. What would make you think torture would be approved on this board? It never would be. Ever.

at least two people who replied to this thread said yes.  maybe four.  did you miss that?

[Opti]

Mar 23, 2016 11:59:43 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Mar 23, 2016 10:46:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i wasn't trolling, greg.  i just wanted to make sure that there was no seachange in opinion on this issue.

the ticking time bomb is a thought experiment to make a case for "exigent circumstances".  whether that passes or fails
has no bearing on the general use of torture which is widely regarded both as immoral and ineffective.c

I don't find it immoral and I'm unsure given as we the people are never told if it's effective or not. Considering I feel terrorists are cowards I think it might be very effective. Depending on method used. After gleaning all information out of them quietly get rid of them. Yelling out to the world that we torture is just plain stupid. But we're civilized which is why we and countries like us are doomed.  Turning the other cheek just gets that one slapped, too.

The bolded is why torture will never ever be a reliable method of information gathering. If you are willing to torture someone you are likely willing to kill them. And if you are being tortured and expect to get killed, there isn't much advantage of saying anything. No one knows if you are lying or telling the truth, and they don't stop at the truth because they don't know what it is or not. They stop when they feel they have enough. That fact alone, is going to get you more lies than truth.