fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 28, 2015 21:19:08 GMT -5
Wanted to add one element to this blame the family angle- she was recently orphaned and in foster care. As the sheriff said- she was still at fault- but maybe cut her a little slack. Either way being thrown across a room was not a proper response and the officer got himself fired- good call IMO. So I was right..a bad home life. The worse thing the school can do is let her think this behavior is ok. I disagree with cutting her slack. I also disagree with knocking her over like that. But with that kind of behavior, she does not belong in school. Kids are there to learn. If you don't want to learn, get out That's kind of it though- the issue was whether the cop used excessive force- which was plain obvious. Maybe the idea of police tossing your children around doesn't bother you- but it bothers the hell out of me. Which begs the question if this was your daughter would you feel the same way? I doubt that.
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musicjenny
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Post by musicjenny on Oct 28, 2015 21:23:30 GMT -5
I'm still undecided about how I feel about this, but a part of me just can't fathom not listening to the teacher when you're told to do something. As a kid there is no way I would have blatantly defied a teacher or administrator, especially when I was doing something I knew I wasn't supposed to.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 28, 2015 21:32:58 GMT -5
Don't worry, they slowed the video down, showing the 100# punching the 200+ #weight lifting police officer, during the take down, Now it is all justified. Boy I wonder just how bad that police officer was hurt by that punch, did he take a medical leave? The girl of course was not injured, Nothing to see here folk, just move on. If there is video that she did hit him it's irrelevant. Are you saying only 200# weight lifting dudes should be charged with assaulting an officer? Women and small dudes can swing with impunity? She was swearing and swinging at him!!! What does that call for in your book? Would your reaction be different if she was a 200# muscle bound linebacker? Exactly how much of this behavior are the cops supposed to tolerate? They fired him for good reason.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 28, 2015 21:40:06 GMT -5
So I was right..a bad home life. The worse thing the school can do is let her think this behavior is ok. I disagree with cutting her slack. I also disagree with knocking her over like that. But with that kind of behavior, she does not belong in school. Kids are there to learn. If you don't want to learn, get out That's kind of it though- the issue was whether the cop used excessive force- which was plain obvious. Maybe the idea of police tossing your children around doesn't bother you- but it bothers the hell out of me. Which begs the question if this was your daughter would you feel the same way? I doubt that. I said right in my post that I disagreed with what the officer did so Im not sure why you are saying the idea of the police tossing my kid wouldn't bother me But I would also be bothered by the complete lack of respect my child showed the officer. She would get a severe punishment for acting like that in class
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 28, 2015 21:41:31 GMT -5
I'm still undecided about how I feel about this, but a part of me just can't fathom not listening to the teacher when you're told to do something. As a kid there is no way I would have blatantly defied a teacher or administrator, especially when I was doing something I knew I wasn't supposed to. And that is a major issue. The cop was totally wrong and could have seriously injured this girl But this girl doesn't belog in a classroom. Maybe in a class of other troubled kids (because a non-troubled kid just isn't going to act like that). Unless this was a class for trouble kids.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 28, 2015 22:44:24 GMT -5
In a situation like this, what level of force is acceptable in your mind?
1. Request the student to leave the room.
2. Grab an arm, maybe apply some force to a pressure point.
3. Do as the officer did in the video.
4. Use a taser or night stick.
5. Pull a gun or actually fire it.
6. There no point where the officer can not be wrong.
Your thoughts?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 28, 2015 22:46:40 GMT -5
When I was younger I thought about becoming a teacher. I think even now that it may have been the one thing that I would have truly enjoyed. I abandoned that idea because the profession seemed to be so screwed up, with teachers on strike seemingly every other year or being RIF'ed each spring and not knowing if they had a job for the next year. That being said, I think my response would have been something like this:
After the initial refusals on her part, I would either pick up or drag the desk (with her in it) to the front of the room.
"Miss xxxx, you are disrupting class, both for myself and each of your classmates. You seem to want to be the center of attention and we are going to allow you to do that. So you sit right here as long as you like. We'll wait. But since actions have consequences, you are going to owe me some time at the end. For every minute that you sit here, you will owe me one hour plus an additional five minutes for each other student here. You will spend that time sitting quietly after school in that desk you love so much, and without your phone. With 24 other students in this class that comes to three hours of detention for every minute you are disrupting class."
"Now the rest of us will switch to math problems to pass the time. Who wants to go to the board and diagram how much detention time Miss xxxx will spend after school if she disrupts class for 14 minutes? Mr. yyyy? How about you?"
Ain't no way some bratty-assed kid will outlast me!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 28, 2015 23:02:49 GMT -5
OK......so at what age are you all suggesting that physical force should be stopped on "children".
Bc wasn't it in another thread that so many advocated in favor of using physical force on children under a certain age?
No?
None of you ever dragged your 3 yr old to the car bc you were running late for work and they didn't want to put on their shoes?
None of you ever picked up your kid and dragged them off the playground?
etc etc etc
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 28, 2015 23:17:25 GMT -5
OK......so at what age are you all suggesting that physical force should be stopped on "children". Bc wasn't it in another thread that so many advocated in favor of using physical force on children under a certain age? No? None of you ever dragged your 3 yr old to the car bc you were running late for work and they didn't want to put on their shoes? None of you ever picked up your kid and dragged them off the playground? etc etc etc Dragging your kid off the playground is a bit different than dragging someone else's kid off the playground.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 28, 2015 23:21:56 GMT -5
OK......so at what age are you all suggesting that physical force should be stopped on "children". Bc wasn't it in another thread that so many advocated in favor of using physical force on children under a certain age? No? None of you ever dragged your 3 yr old to the car bc you were running late for work and they didn't want to put on their shoes? None of you ever picked up your kid and dragged them off the playground? etc etc etc Dragging your kid off the playground is a bit different than dragging someone else's kid off the playground. So, it's not really about the violence part but the possession part?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 29, 2015 5:01:09 GMT -5
Dragging your kid off the playground is a bit different than dragging someone else's kid off the playground. So, it's not really about the violence part but the possession part? Well I know when I drag my kid away from anywhere, his head isn't being slammed on the ground.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 29, 2015 6:02:56 GMT -5
Dragging your kid off the playground is a bit different than dragging someone else's kid off the playground. So, it's not really about the violence part but the possession part? Do you want strangers picking up your children and dragging them away?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 29, 2015 6:44:53 GMT -5
So, it's not really about the violence part but the possession part? Do you want strangers picking up your children and dragging them away? Well, I prefer not to drag anyone away unless they are a criminal or something. I just find it amusing the kind of things people find acceptable and not acceptable.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 29, 2015 6:46:32 GMT -5
So, it's not really about the violence part but the possession part? Well I know when I drag my kid away from anywhere, his head isn't being slammed on the ground. I certainly hope it was not this guy's intention as well.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 29, 2015 6:54:16 GMT -5
Well I know when I drag my kid away from anywhere, his head isn't being slammed on the ground. I certainly hope it was not this guy's intention as well. I'm pretty sure a drunk driver's intention is not to cause a deadly accident too. Both the drunk driver and the officer in the classroom lost control of the situation. And in no way am I giving this out-of-control brat of a student a pass. She started the mess. The officer though lost control of the same mess.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Oct 29, 2015 7:01:28 GMT -5
I certainly hope it was not this guy's intention as well. I'm pretty sure a drunk driver's intention is not to cause a deadly accident too. Both the drunk driver and the officer in the classroom lost control of the situation. And in no way am I giving this out-of-control brat of a student a pass. She started the mess. The officer though lost control of the same mess. Oh I think that what the officer did was completely wrong. But I also think there are lots of things that people do to children are wrong, but get more of a pass bc it's done by parents.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 29, 2015 7:04:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure a drunk driver's intention is not to cause a deadly accident too. Both the drunk driver and the officer in the classroom lost control of the situation. And in no way am I giving this out-of-control brat of a student a pass. She started the mess. The officer though lost control of the same mess. Oh I think that what the officer did was completely wrong. But I also think there are lots of things that people do to children are wrong, but get more of a pass bc it's done by parents. I agree with you then.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 29, 2015 7:11:24 GMT -5
It would have been disruptive for the teacher and other students either way, but if it were me in charge, and the student refused the officer's request to put away the phone, I would have called in a female teacher or administrator or two into the room with the student and officer. Then I would have the teacher and rest of the class move into a vacant classroom or cafeteria to hold the class. After the class left the room, I would have had the officer and female teacher/administrator wait with the student in the now empty classroom while the parent(s) of the student were called and told to report to the school to collect their kid and issue the school suspension. In this day and age, how can any situation with a female student be settled without a female involved? And cooler heads from the adults...... Simple solution would be, have a female representative with the policeman, turn the desk around where the student's feet are backwards (so they can not lock in their feet on the floor) and slide the desk and student backwards out of the classroom, down the hall to the Principal, or Dean of students office and defuse the situation. This is not rocket science, or re-inventing the wheel.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 7:56:56 GMT -5
It would have been disruptive for the teacher and other students either way, but if it were me in charge, and the student refused the officer's request to put away the phone, I would have called in a female teacher or administrator or two into the room with the student and officer. Then I would have the teacher and rest of the class move into a vacant classroom or cafeteria to hold the class. After the class left the room, I would have had the officer and female teacher/administrator wait with the student in the now empty classroom while the parent(s) of the student were called and told to report to the school to collect their kid and issue the school suspension. In this day and age, how can any situation with a female student be settled without a female involved? And cooler heads from the adults...... Simple solution would be, have a female representative with the policeman, turn the desk around where the student's feet are backwards (so they can not lock in their feet on the floor) and slide the desk and student backwards out of the classroom, down the hall to the Principal, or Dean of students office and defuse the situation. This is not rocket science, or re-inventing the wheel. I get where you're coming from, but do we really want to afford a student this degree of power to disrupt? For one thing, you have to admit that this kind of "extraction" would look ridiculous. For another, it sends the strong message that you're not taking the defiance seriously. As I see it, the appropriateness of the officer's actions in this case boils down to whether his manoeuver risked seriously harming the girl. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and judge him based on whether or not his upending the girl actually caused a concussion. If yes, he made the wrong bet, so fire him. If no, he used reasonable force to end the standoff as quickly as possible. None of this 'turn her around, drag the desk to the door, drag it out into the hallway...'. It's 'I asked you nicely, you refused, I am the authority of last resort, and this ends now'. The police chief's condemnation of the officer involved is him covering his own butt. You don't go on record in 2015 saying "yeah, that black kid deserved it" if you're a police chief and you want to keep your job, especially if the incident is borderline. If anyone here thinks the man wouldn't lose his job for saying this was an appropriate use of force, I'd love to hear your reasoning.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2015 8:21:29 GMT -5
I'm usually (probably 95% percent) on the side of law enforcement. However, it didn't appear this girl was physically threatening anyone. Nobody was in physical danger. IMO opinion, force like that should only be used if there is a threat of harm to others or to herself. Since there didn't appear to be, that officer did not follow training and procedure and I don't think it's unreasonable that he lost his job.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 8:24:02 GMT -5
... For one thing, you have to admit that this kind of "extraction" would look ridiculous. For another, it sends the strong message that you're not taking the defiance seriously. ... Story Time: I had just finished about three months of working at a educational program for young boys who were between stays at lock-up juvenile facilities. During this time, I was assaulted twice. I was subbing in a regular high school class. A female student was attempting to play "sink the sub". I just looking at her and shaking my head. I finally explained t to her where I had just been and informed her she was going to have to work a lot harder if she was going to get to me. She flipped back her hair, gathered her books, and left. The remainder of class time went well. I say go ahead and play the fool. I don't see any advantage in taking children throwing temper tantrums seriously.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 8:33:25 GMT -5
... However, it didn't appear this girl was physically threatening anyone. Nobody was in physical danger. ... I just want to point out and counter an argument. The police officer was threatened and in physical danger. Of course the reason for this was because he chose to put himself into a position where he was in danger and was physically threatening her first. All he had to do was keep some distance away.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 8:43:53 GMT -5
... For one thing, you have to admit that this kind of "extraction" would look ridiculous. For another, it sends the strong message that you're not taking the defiance seriously. ... Story Time: I had just finished about three months of working at a educational program for young boys who were between stays at lock-up juvenile facilities. During this time, I was assaulted twice. I was subbing in a regular high school class. A female student was attempting to play "sink the sub". I just looking at her and shaking my head. I finally explained t to her where I had just been and informed her she was going to have to work a lot harder if she was going to get to me. She flipped back her hair, gathered her books, and left. The remainder of class time went well. I say go ahead and play the fool. I don't see any advantage in taking children throwing temper tantrums seriously. I commend your restraint, but i) there was a clear end to the standoff here, and ii) I get the impression this girl wasn't being perpetually disruptive, hence ignoring her was a palatable option. Suppose you'd demanded that she put away her phone and she ignored you. Also suppose her phone was chiming away with incoming texts. Do you let her openly defy you without consequence, or do you escalate? Personally, I wouldn't tolerate the defiance. I'd tell her she could either leave, put her phone away, or else I'd summon the principal and physically remove her, forcefully if need be. Hence as I understand it, the situation would have played out exactly the same way as it did in this case we're debating.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2015 8:55:03 GMT -5
... However, it didn't appear this girl was physically threatening anyone. Nobody was in physical danger. ... I just want to point out and counter an argument. The police officer was threatened and in physical danger. Of course the reason for this was because he chose to put himself into a position where he was in danger and was physically threatening her first. All he had to do was keep some distance away. I didn't see him as being in physical danger. She was a small girl and had no weapon. Nope. Not in any physical danger that I could see even after he initiated contact. Her punch to his chest was about as threatening as me taking a swing at you! I suppose it's possible that she had a pen or pencil and had threatened him, but since we conveniently don't see anything that led up to the officer taking her down, I guess I don't know for sure. Anything is possible.
ETA: It just appears to me from what we can see that the level of force in response to the level of the threat was unreasonable. But I wasn't there. That's just an opinion from an arm-chair quarterback setting in her recliner all safe and sound!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 9:07:44 GMT -5
Story Time: I had just finished about three months of working at a educational program for young boys who were between stays at lock-up juvenile facilities. During this time, I was assaulted twice. I was subbing in a regular high school class. A female student was attempting to play "sink the sub". I just looking at her and shaking my head. I finally explained t to her where I had just been and informed her she was going to have to work a lot harder if she was going to get to me. She flipped back her hair, gathered her books, and left. The remainder of class time went well. I say go ahead and play the fool. I don't see any advantage in taking children throwing temper tantrums seriously. I commend your restraint, but i) there was a clear end to the standoff here, and ii) I get the impression this girl wasn't being perpetually disruptive, hence ignoring her was a palatable option. Suppose you'd demanded that she put away her phone and she ignored you. Also suppose her phone was chiming away with incoming texts. Do you let her openly defy you without consequence, or do you escalate? Personally, I wouldn't tolerate the defiance. I'd tell her she could either leave, put her phone away, or else I'd summon the principal and physically remove her, forcefully if need be. Hence as I understand it, the situation would have played out exactly the same way as it did in this case we're debating. At a later point in my teaching experience, I did have a student refuse to leave. I did what Tenn suggested earlier in this thread. I isolated and got administrative backup. We did get the student to voluntarily move to the VP's office but then refuse to leave the school once suspension paperwork was completed. We called the cops (no on-site police, in fact it was rural so half hour wait for the guy to show up). The sheriff's deputy calmly explained that we were correct that the student could be arrested for trespassing. It was about twenty minutes of' "No way" - "way" before the kid put his hands behind his back and went with the officer. In this case, the student was new to the area and was just testing limits. The poor kid was so confused that we were not reacting with anger. It was a totally new experience for him. The whole thing was very time consuming but well worth the lesson taught.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 9:18:05 GMT -5
... I didn't see him as being in physical danger. She was a small girl and had no weapon. Nope. Not in any physical danger that I could see even after he initiated contact. Her punch to his chest was about as threatening as me taking a swing at you! ... Got it. Just a difference in concept of physical danger. Even if you wouldn't be able to do serious damage to me, you threatening to hit me is physical danger in my mind. Again IM(not so)HO, to think otherwise just excuses violence.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 9:22:51 GMT -5
I commend your restraint, but i) there was a clear end to the standoff here, and ii) I get the impression this girl wasn't being perpetually disruptive, hence ignoring her was a palatable option. Suppose you'd demanded that she put away her phone and she ignored you. Also suppose her phone was chiming away with incoming texts. Do you let her openly defy you without consequence, or do you escalate? Personally, I wouldn't tolerate the defiance. I'd tell her she could either leave, put her phone away, or else I'd summon the principal and physically remove her, forcefully if need be. Hence as I understand it, the situation would have played out exactly the same way as it did in this case we're debating. At a later point in my teaching experience, I did have a student refuse to leave. I did what Tenn suggested earlier in this thread. I isolated and got administrative backup. We did get the student to voluntarily move to the VP's office but then refuse to leave the school once suspension paperwork was completed. We called the cops (no on-site police, in fact it was rural so half hour wait for the guy to show up). The sheriff's deputy calmly explained that we were correct that the student could be arrested for trespassing. It was about twenty minutes of' "No way" - "way" before the kid put his hands behind his back and went with the officer. In this case, the student was new to the area and was just testing limits. The poor kid was so confused that we were not reacting with anger. It was a totally new experience for him. The whole thing was very time consuming but well worth the lesson taught. Was a lesson taught, though? Was the kid well-behaved after this?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Oct 29, 2015 9:25:47 GMT -5
Right. Because body slamming a 16 year old and tossing her across the room looks totally no ridiculous. Much less disruptive to the class. I am sure they got a TON of work done after two of their classmates were hauled off in cuffs, for the horribly dangerous action of not putting away their phones.
So if his move results in concussion - bad, but if it doesn't - then its okay? What if he does it twice, on two different students, and one gets a concussion and one doesn't? The end result of the move is immaterial to whether the move was appropriate. Also "standoff"? This wasn't an armed hostage situation, it was a girl, sitting in a class, being mouthy and refusing to put away her phone.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 9:31:08 GMT -5
... Was a lesson taught, though? Was the kid well-behaved after this? He was for the brief time he was at the school. He did move back to his Mom's world in which anger was the norm. We really rattled his world. And that, IM(not so)HO, is what education is about.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 29, 2015 9:42:46 GMT -5
Schools have to avoid lawsuits, too. I'm sure this girl and her family have been already contacted by many lawyers eager to sue the school district for damages, real or imaginary. I agree with two people picking her up, desk and all, and moving her into the hall or the office and waiting there for her parents. I had a friend who was a librarian at a school and a teenage boy called her a c word. Without thinking she slapped him. The parents immediately went to a lawyer to file a lawsuit because their six foot tall, nasty mouthed brat got his face slapped by a teacher. It ended up being dismissed, but not before she suffered through many sleepless nights. Better to make sure the school staff handle these kinds of things without physical contact with the kids, as much as possible, to keep these idiot parents from profiting from their unruly kids.
And, you know, also better that they handle things without physical violence because hitting someone because they called you a name is never an appropriate response. I thought we all learned that in kindergarten. Holy fucking shit. The fact that you seem to think that she was somehow not responsible for slapping a kid across the face is astounding. Truly. People don't get a pass for hitting someone because they "weren't thinking". Especially when you are talking about an ADULT hitting a CHILD, no matter how tall said child is. It wasn't like she was slapping a kindergardener around. This kid was six feet tall, a high schooler, and she was a little five foot 3 fifty something year old librarian. He got up into her face, spewed a torrant of nasty language, and ended with the C word. She responded reflexively. I did not say she should have hit him. She should not have done that. She got in trouble for hitting him with the school district, and that was appropriate. (The school district allowed paddling, but not slapping the face, so could have taken him to the principals' office and gotten him paddled). But no way the parents should have sued her or the school. Talk about holy fucking shit - your six foot tall kid calls a teacher the C word and your response is to sue the school because he got slapped? What happened to discussing this with the school, finding out what happened, how the teacher was disciplined, and then going home to discipline your filthy mouthed kid? Instead they saw this as a way to make some cash. Wonderful parents. Upstanding kid.
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