Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2015 9:47:22 GMT -5
... I didn't see him as being in physical danger. She was a small girl and had no weapon. Nope. Not in any physical danger that I could see even after he initiated contact. Her punch to his chest was about as threatening as me taking a swing at you! ... Got it. Just a difference in concept of physical danger. Even if you wouldn't be able to do serious damage to me, you threatening to hit me is physical danger in my mind. Again IM(not so)HO, to think otherwise just excuses violence. To me, its the opposite. Histrionics incites violence. Rational thinking avoids violence - it's doesn't excuse it. Don't get me wrong. I have NO problem with law enforcement using reasonable force - whatever that may be - if there is a possibility that they, others or even the perpetrator could be hurt. No problem whatsoever. I just don't think this was the case here. If that child had a weapon of some sort - even a pencil - go for it. Take her down with whatever force you need to in order to neutralize the threat. I just don't think that was the case here.
I may have felt differently if I was there. I don't know. I would really like to see what happened before, but I doubt we ever will. For all I know, she might have said something like, "Touch me and I'll stab you in the eye with my pencil."
PS: I wouldn't really threaten to hit you. I hate violence.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 9:50:47 GMT -5
It is not illegal to film the cops, unless you are stopping them from doing their job. Yeah- that would depend on the state / municipality; and stopping them from doing their job is rather subjective.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 9:54:16 GMT -5
Wow, I'm amazed but shouldn't be, that anyone is defending the student. I sent my kids to learn in a safe environment. If someone chooses to not learn and make it unsafe then doesn't remove themselves when asked to, then I'm glad it was dealt with. Time and past time for this bs to stop. Your savage does not have more rights than a well behaved student. I'm amazed the school did anything at all. Usually the system is so that the inmates run the asylum. This is one of those, "Either you get it, or you don't" situations. As anyone whose been around here ought to know, I am not a knee-jerk defender of the police. However...she was already under arrest when she refused to get up out of her desk. Anything after that is assault and battery, and resisting arrest-- at a minimum. If you expect a situation to be handled non-violently, then YOU are responsible for non-violent compliance with lawful orders. When she refused to leave the classroom and remained disruptive to the point police had to be called, she forfeited the non-violent option. Police ARE force. That is the ONLY reason they get involved. They're not counselors, they don't show up to say please and thank you. They are there to give lawful orders which you must obey, or they are duly authorized to use force. A little respect and common sense would serve this young female well. Obtaining victim status after SHE victimized the whole classroom, and the taxpayers funding it sends the wrong message to everyone.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2015 9:54:33 GMT -5
Plus....she wasn't arrested for filming the cops. She was arrest for cursing and screaming at him.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Oct 29, 2015 9:57:29 GMT -5
Got it. Just a difference in concept of physical danger. Even if you wouldn't be able to do serious damage to me, you threatening to hit me is physical danger in my mind. Again IM(not so)HO, to think otherwise just excuses violence. To me, its the opposite. Histrionics incites violence. Rational thinking avoids violence - it's doesn't excuse it. Don't get me wrong. I have NO problem with law enforcement using reasonable force - whatever that may be - if there is a possibility that they, others or even the perpetrator could be hurt. No problem whatsoever. I just don't think this was the case here. If that child had a weapon of some sort - even a pencil - go for it. Take her down with whatever force you need to in order to neutralize the threat. I just don't think that was the case here.
I may have felt differently if I was there. I don't know. I would really like to see what happened before, but I doubt we ever will. For all I know, she might have said something like, "Touch me and I'll stab you in the eye with my pencil."
PS: I wouldn't really threaten to hit you. I hate violence.
If she was such a threat - why didn't they clear the room? Obviously we don't have the whole story, but from that video she was just sitting their being a stubborn pain in the ass and refusing to move. The cop escalated it to a physical confrontation. Teens are going to be asshats - it comes with being a teen. The adult, the one with the training, is the one we should be holding to a higher standard to ensure situations don't get out of hand. Refuse to put away your phone? Cop escalates it and slams a kid to the ground - excuses made. Refuse to get out of your car? Cop escalates it and ends up killing a kid - excuses made. I hope those defending this type of over the top reaction from cops in non-threatening situations enjoy living in the police state you all seem to want so badly.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 10:01:12 GMT -5
... "Touch me and I'll stab you in the eye with my pencil." ... If she had said that then don't touch her and keep your eye more than an arm's reach away from her. That is how to not be in physical danger.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 10:05:06 GMT -5
... Was a lesson taught, though? Was the kid well-behaved after this? He was for the brief time he was at the school. He did move back to his Mom's world in which anger was the norm. We really rattled his world. And that, IM(not so)HO, is what education is about. Depriving an anger-accustomed kid of an angry reaction. I suppose I could see that working.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 10:08:57 GMT -5
Police ARE force. That is the ONLY reason they get involved. They're not counselors, they don't show up to say please and thank you. They are there to give lawful orders which you must obey, or they are duly authorized to use force. I have to agree. Involve the police if and only if force is required, and regardless of whether you're the teacher or the student, expect them to use it.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 29, 2015 10:10:02 GMT -5
Why don't you enlighten us as to what disciplinary option would have a better outcome? A slap is immediate, uninjurious, and takes all of five seconds to administer. You mouth off to authority, you get slapped. I defy you to find me anyone who has ever slapped or been slapped who will testify that it wasn't an extremely effective disciplinary measure. But screw that. That's from the era where public schools didn't have metal detectors at the entrances and de facto police officers roaming the halls. Why don't you sell us all on the newer, less effective way of dealing with open defiance so that schools' downhill plunge shan't be arrested. My local high school does not have metal detectors, and oddly hasn't made the news with teachers and librarians slapping kids for name calling either. I expect they use standard disciplinary actions like suspensions, detentions, Saturday school, not being allowed to go participate in extracurriculars, expulsion as a last resort. You know, like back when we were in school and everything was perfect and teens were never mouthy.
I have a couple teens in my household. If I slapped one of them in the face, I think I'd fully expect to get slapped back. If I can react "without thinking", shouldn't I expect that other people will as well? Or does only one person get a special pass in a slap battle?
My kids school also has night school. This kid may have disrupted class that one day but they would not have been there the next. Their ass would have been at night school and they better not try anything like this again if they want to not get kicked out permanently. the alternative school's way of doing things is being there is your second chance and there are no third chances. Violence is never the answer and greater good is a piss poor excuse for a supposed adult who clearly has no control of his anger. Talk about someone who needs anger managment.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 29, 2015 10:10:41 GMT -5
... "Touch me and I'll stab you in the eye with my pencil." ... If she had said that then don't touch her and keep your eye more than an arm's reach away from her. That is how to not be in physical danger. Nope. She goes out of that classroom. She learns what it means to obey directions. She goes. Period. I just am thinking there had to be a better way of doing it.
He should have just tased her.
That was a joke.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 29, 2015 10:19:43 GMT -5
In a situation like this, what level of force is acceptable in your mind? 1. Request the student to leave the room. 2. Grab an arm, maybe apply some force to a pressure point. 3. Do as the officer did in the video. 4. Use a taser or night stick. 5. Pull a gun or actually fire it. 6. There no point where the officer can not be wrong. Your thoughts? Shouldn't have been ANY force used unless this girl was attacking other students or teachers. She wasn't, she was just sitting there. The police officer and the teacher could have picked her up, chair and all, and carried her out of the room into the hallway. The police officer could have stood there watching her while the principal went to call her parents or guardian.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 29, 2015 10:56:06 GMT -5
I think it's highly unlikely she would have sat still while the chair/desk was being moved, esp. if she was still in/at/on it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 11:09:36 GMT -5
The police officer and the teacher could have picked her up, chair and all, and carried her out of the room into the hallway. The police officer could have stood there watching her while the principal went to call her parents or guardian. Does this not strike you as an absurd degree of accommodation for the student? I don't get this viewpoint. To me, carrying the student out, desk and all, is absurd. To me it screams "We are helpless, and you have succeeded in forcing us to carry you around like footmen carrying around a monarch." If I were the student, assuming I didn't simply put my hands out to prevent being toted through the door (which would be the easiest thing in the world for me to do), I would be glorying in how effortlessly I'd subjugated the nitwit authorities with just a bit of resistance. All this just to avoid a second of violence? I'm sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Violence has its purpose. Force has its purpose. And like Paul says, if the police show up and you fail to comply with the law, you should expect force and violence. We can debate whether flipping the girl over was excessive as a first measure, but when it comes to mounting a group of porters to carry her out the door, I'm going to be the first to say it out loud: you have to be at least part bleeding heart liberal to think this is a good idea. If this is the only other option, you'll have to forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed for the girl when she gets flipped on her arse.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 11:12:11 GMT -5
If she had said that then don't touch her and keep your eye more than an arm's reach away from her. That is how to not be in physical danger. Nope. She goes out of that classroom. She learns what it means to obey directions. She goes. Period. I just am thinking there had to be a better way of doing it.
He should have just tased her.
That was a joke.
Damn fucking straight. We got to show that bitch who the boss is. If all you possess in your skill set is a hammer, then all you can do is pound. Of course, you are just teaching others to pound. It is our culture of violence. I want to stop living in it, but as long as others perpetuate it, nothing I can do except cry over the next abused/murdered child whose parent was taught in school to slam them to the ground.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 11:14:51 GMT -5
Wow, I'm amazed but shouldn't be, that anyone is defending the student. I sent my kids to learn in a safe environment. If someone chooses to not learn and make it unsafe then doesn't remove themselves when asked to, then I'm glad it was dealt with. Time and past time for this bs to stop. Your savage does not have more rights than a well behaved student. I'm amazed the school did anything at all. Usually the system is so that the inmates run the asylum. This is one of those, "Either you get it, or you don't" situations. As anyone whose been around here ought to know, I am not a knee-jerk defender of the police. However...she was already under arrest when she refused to get up out of her desk. Anything after that is assault and battery, and resisting arrest-- at a minimum. If you expect a situation to be handled non-violently, then YOU are responsible for non-violent compliance with lawful orders. When she refused to leave the classroom and remained disruptive to the point police had to be called, she forfeited the non-violent option. Police ARE force. That is the ONLY reason they get involved. They're not counselors, they don't show up to say please and thank you. They are there to give lawful orders which you must obey, or they are duly authorized to use force. A little respect and common sense would serve this young female well. Obtaining victim status after SHE victimized the whole classroom, and the taxpayers funding it sends the wrong message to everyone. This illustrates well the problem of having police officers permanently stationed in an institution meant for learning.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 29, 2015 11:18:14 GMT -5
Nope. She goes out of that classroom. She learns what it means to obey directions. She goes. Period. I just am thinking there had to be a better way of doing it.
He should have just tased her.
That was a joke.
Damn fucking straight. We got to show that bitch who the boss is. If all you possess in your skill set is a hammer, then all you can do is pound. Of course, you are just teaching others to pound. It is our culture of violence. I want to stop living in it, but as long as others perpetuate it, nothing I can do except cry over the next abused/murdered child whose parent was taught in school to slam them to the ground. You cry over the one kid but ignore the 999 that finally get the message and shape up. Cry over the jails full of adults who are there because their parents and teachers never mounted the nerve to discipline them severely enough while there was still time. Cry for the adults that never got the message that the law is the law, authority is authority, and the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Oct 29, 2015 11:18:50 GMT -5
New information about the student (who has been referred to as a "brat" by some on this board. She was recently orphaned and was living in foster care.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 29, 2015 11:36:14 GMT -5
This is one of those, "Either you get it, or you don't" situations. As anyone whose been around here ought to know, I am not a knee-jerk defender of the police. However...she was already under arrest when she refused to get up out of her desk. Anything after that is assault and battery, and resisting arrest-- at a minimum. If you expect a situation to be handled non-violently, then YOU are responsible for non-violent compliance with lawful orders. When she refused to leave the classroom and remained disruptive to the point police had to be called, she forfeited the non-violent option. Police ARE force. That is the ONLY reason they get involved. They're not counselors, they don't show up to say please and thank you. They are there to give lawful orders which you must obey, or they are duly authorized to use force. A little respect and common sense would serve this young female well. Obtaining victim status after SHE victimized the whole classroom, and the taxpayers funding it sends the wrong message to everyone. This illustrates well the problem of having police officers permanently stationed in an institution meant for learning. Well, that's a two headed sword. I can see, in this day of mass shootings, that you would want someone armed in the school in order to respond to some guy walking in with a weapon. On the other hand, I don't think they should be called into disciplinary situations like this one. From what I can remember of DS's HS, their resource officer was supposed to break up fights between students, and I think she sometimes gave talks about drug abuse. That sounds like an appropriate use of a resource officer.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 11:42:12 GMT -5
Damn fucking straight. We got to show that bitch who the boss is. If all you possess in your skill set is a hammer, then all you can do is pound. Of course, you are just teaching others to pound. It is our culture of violence. I want to stop living in it, but as long as others perpetuate it, nothing I can do except cry over the next abused/murdered child whose parent was taught in school to slam them to the ground. You cry over the one kid but ignore the 999 that finally get the message and shape up. Cry over the jails full of adults who are there because their parents and teachers never mounted the nerve to discipline them severely enough while there was still time. Cry for the adults that never got the message that the law is the law, authority is authority, and the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules. And you ignore the ones that learn the answer to dealing with someone who breaks your rules is: Image removed as per requestBet she didn't stop crying when told to do so. But hey, the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 11:42:24 GMT -5
This is one of those, "Either you get it, or you don't" situations. As anyone whose been around here ought to know, I am not a knee-jerk defender of the police. However...she was already under arrest when she refused to get up out of her desk. Anything after that is assault and battery, and resisting arrest-- at a minimum. If you expect a situation to be handled non-violently, then YOU are responsible for non-violent compliance with lawful orders. When she refused to leave the classroom and remained disruptive to the point police had to be called, she forfeited the non-violent option. Police ARE force. That is the ONLY reason they get involved. They're not counselors, they don't show up to say please and thank you. They are there to give lawful orders which you must obey, or they are duly authorized to use force. A little respect and common sense would serve this young female well. Obtaining victim status after SHE victimized the whole classroom, and the taxpayers funding it sends the wrong message to everyone. This illustrates well the problem of having police officers permanently stationed in an institution meant for learning. Yeah- I'm not crazy about the idea myself-- UNLESS you have specially trained officers dedicated to schools and/or dealing with minors. Even then, my view is that it's almost never "OK" to escalate a situation like this. My plan as a teacher would have been that if she wouldn't get up and leave, we'd ALL get up and leave. I would have ordered the rest of the class out of the room (for safety at the very least) and left her to sit in there, no longer the center of attention, and with the police waiting for her when she finally got around to deciding she wanted to leave. I'm against government run schools anyway because this is the level of stupidity you get. I certainly think it should be easier to expel students permanently-- not transferred to another school-- but expelled. Gone. You don't qualify for in-school education. If she wants to pursue a GED on her own, or someone else would like to assist her in obtaining an education via home-schooling, online, or private schooling-- fine. However, why a student like this should ever be permitted to return to a taxpayer funded classroom is not explainable to me. As I stated- she victimized every kid in that classroom.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 11:45:05 GMT -5
You cry over the one kid but ignore the 999 that finally get the message and shape up. Cry over the jails full of adults who are there because their parents and teachers never mounted the nerve to discipline them severely enough while there was still time. Cry for the adults that never got the message that the law is the law, authority is authority, and the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules. And you ignore the ones that learn the answer to dealing with someone who breaks your rules is: *Picture removed as it has been removed from the quoted post. - mmhmm, Administrator Bet she didn't stop crying when told to do so. But hey, the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules. False analogy. In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P. onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 29, 2015 11:45:16 GMT -5
The police officer and the teacher could have picked her up, chair and all, and carried her out of the room into the hallway. The police officer could have stood there watching her while the principal went to call her parents or guardian. Does this not strike you as an absurd degree of accommodation for the student? I don't get this viewpoint. To me, carrying the student out, desk and all, is absurd. To me it screams "We are helpless, and you have succeeded in forcing us to carry you around like footmen carrying around a monarch." If I were the student, assuming I didn't simply put my hands out to prevent being toted through the door (which would be the easiest thing in the world for me to do), I would be glorying in how effortlessly I'd subjugated the nitwit authorities with just a bit of resistance. All this just to avoid a second of violence? I'm sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Violence has its purpose. Force has its purpose. And like Paul says, if the police show up and you fail to comply with the law, you should expect force and violence. We can debate whether flipping the girl over was excessive as a first measure, but when it comes to mounting a group of porters to carry her out the door, I'm going to be the first to say it out loud: you have to be at least part bleeding heart liberal to think this is a good idea. If this is the only other option, you'll have to forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed for the girl when she gets flipped on her arse. No, I don't think it's an absurd accommodation. I don't think teachers/resource officers should ever use force on a kid unless the kid is actively assaulting them, or assaulting another student. They had other ways to deal with this kind of kid. She was going to be punished - just not physically.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 11:46:23 GMT -5
New information about the student (who has been referred to as a "brat" by some on this board. She was recently orphaned and was living in foster care. This is a great example of why this country needs to come to grips with the FACT that moral and social issues ARE fiscal and economic issues.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 29, 2015 12:19:23 GMT -5
New information about the student (who has been referred to as a "brat" by some on this board. She was recently orphaned and was living in foster care. This is a great example of why this country needs to come to grips with the FACT that moral and social issues ARE fiscal and economic issues. Yes × 1000!!!! This is why I hate when people say we shouldn't subsidize extended ma(pa)ternity leave or have nationally free preschool. You don't want to pay for other people's reproductive choices. Guess what? You ARE paying for them!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 29, 2015 12:36:41 GMT -5
This is a great example of why this country needs to come to grips with the FACT that moral and social issues ARE fiscal and economic issues. Yes × 1000!!!! This is why I hate when people say we shouldn't subsidize extended ma(pa)ternity leave or have nationally free preschool. You don't want to pay for other people's reproductive choices. Guess what? You ARE paying for them! I see my comment went over your head. I think that we already subsidize other people's reproductive choices enough. What we need to do is have more of the cost of raising kids fall into the laps of those that choose to have them. We not only should not subsidize materity leave and pre-school; but we should END welfare.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 12:40:36 GMT -5
And you ignore the ones that learn the answer to dealing with someone who breaks your rules is: *Picture removed as it has been removed from the quoted post. - mmhmm, Administrator Bet she didn't stop crying when told to do so. But hey, the world is a very unforgiving place if you break the rules. False analogy. In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P. onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htmWe do what we are taught.
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Oct 29, 2015 12:43:37 GMT -5
Maybe my perspective is skewed by experiences grappling, but I don't see reckless force to the student? I don't think it's a ideal way to handle the situation, but the force doesn't seem dangerous to me.
The officer had two hands on the student at all times, one on her pant leg, the other on her arm. Given the mass/strength ratios involved, that's a hell of a lot of control. He lifted/rotated. The she and the desk rotated position on a pivot point (back chair feet), then he pulled up and sideways once she was on her back and disoriented.
It was controlled by the grips in an up/lift aspect at all times. No slam down action (gravity multiplied) or even uncontrolled free fall. He had her lower and upper body in a grip each. I wouldn't say zero, but given the control resulting from the grip directions/placements and masses involved, I'd say very near zero odds of head damage.
To me the actions looked very intentionally softened and controlled to prevent injury.
Just my perspective from someone who has grappled with much smaller people and much larger people as part of team practice. I could toss around guys lighter than me by a percentage like practice dummies and could move them relatively very gently. They just couldn't fight my mass and muscle effectively. The heavyweights could toss me around like a ragdoll. As best as I can describe it, it was like being caught up in an ocean wave. Once grapple holds got established, I could fight it, but pretty much I was going to be spun where they wanted me to go.
For clarity, again, I definitely don't think it was an ideal way to handle a teenager being bullheaded.
But I didn't see lethal force, reckless force or even damaging force being used from my perspective. Just controlled force, in a situation that is usually extremely protective of students. I guess it just puzzles me why this police officer was fired, given other situations where true lethal force was used. Just my take.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Oct 29, 2015 13:12:15 GMT -5
Yes × 1000!!!! This is why I hate when people say we shouldn't subsidize extended ma(pa)ternity leave or have nationally free preschool. You don't want to pay for other people's reproductive choices. Guess what? You ARE paying for them! I see my comment went over your head. I think that we already subsidize other people's reproductive choices enough. What we need to do is have more of the cost of raising kids fall into the laps of those that choose to have them. We not only should not subsidize materity leave and pre-school; but we should END welfare. Hopefully abortions will be ready and available.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 13:16:09 GMT -5
False analogy. In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P. onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htmWe do what we are taught. Some of us do what we were taught and some of us understand what we were taught was wrong and don't.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 29, 2015 13:22:54 GMT -5
We do what we are taught. Some of us do what we were taught and some of us understand what we were taught was wrong and don't. Somewhere along the line you were taught to question and learn new behaviors.
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