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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:10:59 GMT -5
High school students can't figure out 'yes means yes' sex consent policy High school students being taught the new "yes means yes" consent policies are asking better questions than the people who wrote the law.
The law, which requires students to view sex as a legal contract rather than a passionate or loving act, is so confusing and unworkable that high school students in San Francisco couldn't figure out how to make it work.
"What does that mean – you have to say 'yes' every 10 minutes?" asked one student. The woman responsible for teaching these students, Shafia Zaloom, responded: "Pretty much," adding, "It's not a timing thing, but whoever initiates things to another level has to ask."
www.washingtonexaminer.com/high-school-students-cant-figure-out-yes-means-yes-sex-consent-policy/article/2574189
Wow. So glad to be old sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 21:21:54 GMT -5
This is not about sex or consent it is about how stupid a government or school can be.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 17, 2015 0:55:41 GMT -5
It's a little weird without some context. The movement for yes means yes not no means no cane from the fact that those under the influence can't give consent and the fact that others freeze or aren't (several possibilities) able to say no even if they don't want to.
When I was younger and inexperienced there was a certain amount of pressure knowing I had to say no to stop the guy vs him asking me if I wanted to do x. And while I don't hold it against the guys at all, looking back if they had asked if I was ok with x vs just doing it I probably would have said no.
Now saying you have to ask every ten minutes is ridiculous, but teenagers are stupid and you kinda need to lay things out for them plainly. Should you have to in a relationship where you've been there before? Probably not. Should you do that with someone new? Yea probably. It's not like some questionnaire one has to fill out just to check in to make sure their partner is ok with what's going on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 15:05:27 GMT -5
It's a little weird without some context. The movement for yes means yes not no means no cane from the fact that those under the influence can't give consent and the fact that others freeze or aren't (several possibilities) able to say no even if they don't want to. When I was younger and inexperienced there was a certain amount of pressure knowing I had to say no to stop the guy vs him asking me if I wanted to do x. And while I don't hold it against the guys at all, looking back if they had asked if I was ok with x vs just doing it I probably would have said no. Now saying you have to ask every ten minutes is ridiculous, but teenagers are stupid and you kinda need to lay things out for them plainly. Should you have to in a relationship where you've been there before? Probably not. Should you do that with someone new? Yea probably. It's not like some questionnaire one has to fill out just to check in to make sure their partner is ok with what's going on. Which is exactly what does not happen under this policy. Consent is required at every level with no definition of level. Back to grade school and bases? What is a level? Is my level the same as your level?
"And while I don't hold it against the guys at all, looking back if they had asked if I was ok with x vs just doing it I probably would have said no."
That's kind of you because under this law they would be required to defend themselves if you used that scenario to accuse them of rape. Do you believe that this was rape and they were rapists?
What does it actually fix? You think it won't be another he said/she said? I didn't consent/yes you did.
Absurd.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 17, 2015 15:17:12 GMT -5
On the face of it I agree it's government overstepping boundaries at it's best.
HOWEVER sometimes it takes legal action to drive changes in society. I do think a culture of requesting, as opposed to assuming, permission is healthier.
Once can only hope that our grandkids will be shaking their heads in disgust at the necessity of this 40 years from now. Similar to the Civil Rights Act.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 17, 2015 15:32:52 GMT -5
It's a little weird without some context. The movement for yes means yes not no means no cane from the fact that those under the influence can't give consent and the fact that others freeze or aren't (several possibilities) able to say no even if they don't want to. When I was younger and inexperienced there was a certain amount of pressure knowing I had to say no to stop the guy vs him asking me if I wanted to do x. And while I don't hold it against the guys at all, looking back if they had asked if I was ok with x vs just doing it I probably would have said no. Now saying you have to ask every ten minutes is ridiculous, but teenagers are stupid and you kinda need to lay things out for them plainly. Should you have to in a relationship where you've been there before? Probably not. Should you do that with someone new? Yea probably. It's not like some questionnaire one has to fill out just to check in to make sure their partner is ok with what's going on. Which is exactly what does not happen under this policy. Consent is required at every level with no definition of level. Back to grade school and bases? What is a level? Is my level the same as your level?
"And while I don't hold it against the guys at all, looking back if they had asked if I was ok with x vs just doing it I probably would have said no."
That's kind of you because under this law they would be required to defend themselves if you used that scenario to accuse them of rape. Do you believe that this was rape and they were rapists?
What does it actually fix? You think it won't be another he said/she said? I didn't consent/yes you did.
Absurd.
Actually, no. The law is about what is to be taught in the highschools. It hasn't changed the law/standards for how rape is prosecuted in CA. A lot of rape cases already are he said she said, so even IF this did change how rape was charged/prosecuted (which it does NOT) it actually doesn't change how a lot of cases boil down to who the jury believes. On the very rare instances a rape case even goes to trial. What does it fix? Hopefully it gets people thinking beyond just "stop if they say no". Because if she's passed out, she can't say no so she didn't say no. But she can't say yes either. Or what about girls that are afraid of what will happen to them if they say no? So they don't say no out of fear. Hopefully it gets more people on the same page where both people are agreeing to forward instead of putting the onus on one person to stop things when they're in a vulnerable position. And while you were being sarcastic about the bases - yeah those are actually great levels to pick. Simple, clear, no guessing levels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 17:21:36 GMT -5
It's a good thing that you can get kicked out of school and be labeled a sexual predator because you forgot to ask if you can go from 2nd base to 3rd base? And of course nothing happens in between there. I have no problem with teaching people to be considerate, I think that's a great idea.
This is trap.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 18:37:47 GMT -5
I think, at this point, we just need to go to consent forms (for all parties involved), in triplicate, with at least one witness (the "witness" cannot be the third party in a threesome or more-some, if the consent form is for a threesome or more-some)... and once you have signed the consent form you are stuck with it... no changing of the mind.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 11:37:10 GMT -5
On the face of it I agree it's government overstepping boundaries at it's best. HOWEVER sometimes it takes legal action to drive changes in society. I do think a culture of requesting, as opposed to assuming, permission is healthier. Once can only hope that our grandkids will be shaking their heads in disgust at the necessity of this 40 years from now. Similar to the Civil Rights Act. I have yet to have a guy ask me if I want to have sex....that seems really bizarre and awkward...you start kissing and one thing leads to another...it IS assumed because if I didn't want to have sex I wouldn't be doing what I was doing....
I think this is crazy
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 20, 2015 11:57:30 GMT -5
On the face of it I agree it's government overstepping boundaries at it's best. HOWEVER sometimes it takes legal action to drive changes in society. I do think a culture of requesting, as opposed to assuming, permission is healthier. Once can only hope that our grandkids will be shaking their heads in disgust at the necessity of this 40 years from now. Similar to the Civil Rights Act. I have yet to have a guy ask me if I want to have sex....that seems really bizarre and awkward...you start kissing and one thing leads to another...it IS assumed because if I didn't want to have sex I wouldn't be doing what I was doing....
I think this is crazy
The article is talking about high school teens and not adults with some life experience under their belt.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 12:03:00 GMT -5
I have yet to have a guy ask me if I want to have sex....that seems really bizarre and awkward...you start kissing and one thing leads to another...it IS assumed because if I didn't want to have sex I wouldn't be doing what I was doing....
I think this is crazy
The article is talking about high school teens and not adults with some life experience under their belt. I was the same way when I was a high school teen...besides, I've make bad choices when drunk (in and out of high school)....asking me to confirm that I want sex doesn't mean that I won't wake up the next day and regret it (in and out of high school)...drinking leads to bad decisions.
perhaps instead of trying to ruin young men's lives, we should accept responsibility for our actions. I've done stupid shit while I was drunk and I regret some of it (some of it was just fun!)...that doesn't mean the person that I did said stupid shit with were criminals. It means I shouldn't have gotten that drunk and lost all inhibitions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 12:07:38 GMT -5
I heard they are setting up sting operations to see if guys are responding correctly. Hopefully not too many guys will fall for the booby traps.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 20, 2015 12:09:01 GMT -5
I heard they are setting up sting operations to see if guys are responding correctly. Hopefully not too many guys will fall for the booby traps.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2015 12:48:35 GMT -5
... ...you start kissing and one thing leads to another... ... If the guy is smooth enough pushing things from one level of intimacy to the next, the gal does have the impression it just happened. Guys know it doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 13:17:06 GMT -5
... ...you start kissing and one thing leads to another... ... If the guy is smooth enough pushing things from one level of intimacy to the next, the gal does have the impression it just happened. Guys know it doesn't. Got it. Man = Smart/conniving Woman= Stupid/gullible
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 14:05:30 GMT -5
... ...you start kissing and one thing leads to another... ... If the guy is smooth enough pushing things from one level of intimacy to the next, the gal does have the impression it just happened. Guys know it doesn't. But see, this line of thinking pisses me the hell off. I am not some dumb female who can't be trusted to make the right decisions in life. If the guy were to slip a roofie, yes, that is rape. Two drunk kids going at it is not rape...and why is it the guy who gets charged with rape? Perhaps the guy would have said no but the unattractive fat girl got him liquored up and took advantage? I'm sure that happens, too.
Females are not perpetual victims. Please stop treating us as such.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 14:05:59 GMT -5
If the guy is smooth enough pushing things from one level of intimacy to the next, the gal does have the impression it just happened. Guys know it doesn't. Got it. Man = Smart/conniving Woman= Stupid/gullible
We were posting at the same time...but exactly! It is actually quite offensive thinking.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Oct 20, 2015 14:07:51 GMT -5
I think it is great. having actual conversations with people before having sex is weird, but it should not be.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 14:10:42 GMT -5
I think it is great. having actual conversations with people before having sex is weird, but it should not be. shhh...no talking...that just kills the mood
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 20, 2015 14:17:33 GMT -5
So a simple "Are you ok with this" will kill the mood. Got it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 14:31:23 GMT -5
So a simple "Are you ok with this" will kill the mood. Got it. I was joking with Archie about killing the mood.
But I find it offensive that women are seen as dumb little creatures that have to be specifically asked to make sure we are ok with something. If I'm taking off my clothes I am ok with it. I might regret it tomorrow but at that moment, in the heat of it, I am ok with it. I can't believe that other women aren't offended over this. We are being treated as the dumber sex that needs to be protected and I find that terribly offensive.
We can't have it both ways, women. If we want to be treated as equals than we sure as hell have to act like equals. Don't demand to make the same salaries as men because we are just as capable then claim we are too dumb to consent to drunken sex.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 20, 2015 14:50:54 GMT -5
So a simple "Are you ok with this" will kill the mood. Got it. I was joking with Archie about killing the mood.
But I find it offensive that women are seen as dumb little creatures that have to be specifically asked to make sure we are ok with something. If I'm taking off my clothes I am ok with it. I might regret it tomorrow but at that moment, in the heat of it, I am ok with it. I can't believe that other women aren't offended over this. We are being treated as the dumber sex that needs to be protected and I find that terribly offensive.
We can't have it both ways, women. If we want to be treated as equals than we sure as hell have to act like equals. Don't demand to make the same salaries as men because we are just as capable then claim we are too dumb to consent to drunken sex. I see it from a different perspective. I'm not focused so much on the gender thing because I think this applies equally to both. Can't speak for all the relationships out there, but for most of the ones I was in, there was one partner who was more aggressive sexually. Usually all the pressure to put the brakes on, if desired, is then on the less aggressive one. They have to be the one who has to say "stop" or "I don't want to do this" or "I don't want to go farther". Let's be honest here, all things that you know will probably disappoint your partner. How can it be wrong then to put some of that pressure on the more sexually aggressive partner to ensure both parties are comfortable with progressing? Especially for teens because I can't help but think that pausing for a moment, and actively thinking about what you're doing, is a good thing. I get what you're saying, but this is one area where I think we need to shift some perceptions from consent is assumed, to consent should be requested by both parties.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 14:53:18 GMT -5
I was joking with Archie about killing the mood.
But I find it offensive that women are seen as dumb little creatures that have to be specifically asked to make sure we are ok with something. If I'm taking off my clothes I am ok with it. I might regret it tomorrow but at that moment, in the heat of it, I am ok with it. I can't believe that other women aren't offended over this. We are being treated as the dumber sex that needs to be protected and I find that terribly offensive.
We can't have it both ways, women. If we want to be treated as equals than we sure as hell have to act like equals. Don't demand to make the same salaries as men because we are just as capable then claim we are too dumb to consent to drunken sex. I see it from a different perspective. I'm not focused so much on the gender thing because I think this applies equally to both. Can't speak for all the relationships out there, but for most of the ones I was in, there was one partner who was more aggressive sexually. Usually all the pressure to put the brakes on, if desired, is then on the less aggressive one. They have to be the one who has to say "stop" or "I don't want to do this" or "I don't want to go farther". Let's be honest here, all things that you know will probably disappoint your partner. How can it be wrong then to put some of that pressure on the more sexually aggressive partner to ensure both parties are comfortable with progressing? Especially for teens because I can't help but think that pausing for a moment, and actively thinking about what you're doing, is a good thing.I get what you're saying, but this is one area where I think we need to shift some perceptions from consent is assumed, to consent should be requested by both parties. but if teens actually thought with their head and not their hormones there would be a lot less sex...but teens let hormones run wild and if there is alcohol involved they think even less.
Everyone wants big brother out of women's bodies (well, most everyone) but now we are saying females are too stupid to consent? I have major issues with that.
We are either the weaker sex that need men to look out for us and make sure we don't do anything stupid, or we are strong, independent people who can make our own decisions.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 20, 2015 14:58:05 GMT -5
I can see both sides of the coin. I understand why Miss T is offended, I shouldn't need a contract to protect myself from my decisions. I am capable of deciding if I want to have sex or not w/o being asked every 10 minutes if I am okay with it.
At the same time I can understand Captain's point that it's not a bad thing to make teenagers think before they act. I almost lost my virginity to a friend of mine, fortunately even in the heat of the moment we were both smart enough to realize "shit no condoms" and put a break on things. I'd like to think part of that is we've had "safe sex" drilled into our heads for years and it actually sunk in.
Not everyone, teenager or otherwise thinks that far ahead and there are consequences to sex besides possibly being accused of rape.
So while I think actually signing a contract and having to ask for consent every 10 minutes would be dumb and offensive to both parties, it is a useful thought exercise.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 20, 2015 15:08:24 GMT -5
I see it from a different perspective. I'm not focused so much on the gender thing because I think this applies equally to both. Can't speak for all the relationships out there, but for most of the ones I was in, there was one partner who was more aggressive sexually. Usually all the pressure to put the brakes on, if desired, is then on the less aggressive one. They have to be the one who has to say "stop" or "I don't want to do this" or "I don't want to go farther". Let's be honest here, all things that you know will probably disappoint your partner. How can it be wrong then to put some of that pressure on the more sexually aggressive partner to ensure both parties are comfortable with progressing? Especially for teens because I can't help but think that pausing for a moment, and actively thinking about what you're doing, is a good thing.I get what you're saying, but this is one area where I think we need to shift some perceptions from consent is assumed, to consent should be requested by both parties. but if teens actually thought with their head and not their hormones there would be a lot less sex...but teens let hormones run wild and if there is alcohol involved they think even less.
Everyone wants big brother out of women's bodies (well, most everyone) but now we are saying females are too stupid to consent? I have major issues with that.
We are either the weaker sex that need men to look out for us and make sure we don't do anything stupid, or we are strong, independent people who can make our own decisions.
You seem narrowed in on this as a women's issue, I don't necessarily see it that way. Let's take this in another direction - when is the last time one of us had a son come home with the snot beat out of him? Granted, I don't have a boy, but my friends do and it's so uncommon that when it happened, we discussed it for weeks. Yet I understand from my father and my husband that dudes used to settle disputes with their fists all the time. Somewhere along the way that became not so acceptable and now, at least from what I can see, it's a rarity - to the point where you get suspended for doing so. We seem to blindly think that teens can only think with their hormones. I don't accept that. I think it's a good thing for both parties to have to pause, and think and actively ensure the other wants to proceed. At the very least, that forces a moment of reset and who knows - maybe there won't be so many regrets the next morning. The above is for both genders btw.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 15:14:43 GMT -5
but if teens actually thought with their head and not their hormones there would be a lot less sex...but teens let hormones run wild and if there is alcohol involved they think even less.
Everyone wants big brother out of women's bodies (well, most everyone) but now we are saying females are too stupid to consent? I have major issues with that.
We are either the weaker sex that need men to look out for us and make sure we don't do anything stupid, or we are strong, independent people who can make our own decisions.
You seem narrowed in on this as a women's issue, I don't necessarily see it that way. Let's take this in another direction - when is the last time one of us had a son come home with the snot beat out of him? Granted, I don't have a boy, but my friends do and it's so uncommon that when it happened, we discussed it for weeks. Yet I understand from my father and my husband that dudes used to settle disputes with their fists all the time. Somewhere along the way that became not so acceptable and now, at least from what I can see, it's a rarity - to the point where you get suspended for doing so. We seem to blindly think that teens can only think with their hormones. I don't accept that. I think it's a good thing for both parties to have to pause, and think and actively ensure the other wants to proceed. At the very least, that forces a moment of reset and who knows - maybe there won't be so many regrets the next morning. The above is for both genders btw. And when was the last time that a teenaged girl was charged with rape because the next day the boy sobered up and decided he really didn't want to have sex but that aggressive, sex-crazed girl took advantage of him? This may be a gender neutral law but it won't be enforced in a neutral way.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 20, 2015 15:25:24 GMT -5
One person's "one thing leads to another" is another's "one thing leads to nothing, that was it".
It's such a dangerous thing to presume what another person is thinking and feeling and wanting. In other aspects of life most people expect that, but when it comes to sex it's always just presumed.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 15:30:54 GMT -5
One person's "one thing leads to another" is another's "one thing leads to nothing, that was it". It's such a dangerous thing to presume what another person is thinking and feeling and wanting. In other aspects of life most people expect that, but when it comes to sex it's always just presumed. I don't undertand...because even as a teen I couldn't just "accidentally" have sex. If I didn't want to I wasn't going to do it. I honestly don't understand how one can go through with the act and then say they didn't want to. Unless you mean some said they didn't want to and then the guy forced himself on her...that's rape. But not having a signed, notarized document witnessed by two people securing a confirmation to having sex doesn't mean you didn't consent. Your actions (not you specifically, the general "you") are what gave the consent...if you don't want to have sex, don't have it.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 20, 2015 15:36:56 GMT -5
You seem narrowed in on this as a women's issue, I don't necessarily see it that way. Let's take this in another direction - when is the last time one of us had a son come home with the snot beat out of him? Granted, I don't have a boy, but my friends do and it's so uncommon that when it happened, we discussed it for weeks. Yet I understand from my father and my husband that dudes used to settle disputes with their fists all the time. Somewhere along the way that became not so acceptable and now, at least from what I can see, it's a rarity - to the point where you get suspended for doing so. We seem to blindly think that teens can only think with their hormones. I don't accept that. I think it's a good thing for both parties to have to pause, and think and actively ensure the other wants to proceed. At the very least, that forces a moment of reset and who knows - maybe there won't be so many regrets the next morning. The above is for both genders btw. And when was the last time that a teenaged girl was charged with rape because the next day the boy sobered up and decided he really didn't want to have sex but that aggressive, sex-crazed girl took advantage of him? This may be a gender neutral law but it won't be enforced in a neutral way.
I've posted the stats before on male rape, so I won't repeat that discussion. Maybe with this in place there is no plausible self deception (well I thought they wanted to go all the way, what do you mean they didn't...). The aggressor will have to be honest with themselves and know they continued the act even when the other party said no. The aggressor will have to live with the firm knowledge they are a rapist. I would hope that might give some pause. You also presume this situation applies only to hetro relationships - it's, I think, a good thing for all relationships.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 20, 2015 15:41:21 GMT -5
And when was the last time that a teenaged girl was charged with rape because the next day the boy sobered up and decided he really didn't want to have sex but that aggressive, sex-crazed girl took advantage of him? This may be a gender neutral law but it won't be enforced in a neutral way.
I've posted the stats before on male rape, so I won't repeat that discussion. Maybe with this in place there is no plausible self deception (well I thought they wanted to go all the way, what do you mean they didn't...). The aggressor will have to be honest with themselves and know they continued the act even when the other party said no. The aggressor will have to live with the firm knowledge they are a rapist. I would hope that might give some pause. You also presume this situation applies only to hetro relationships - it's, I think, a good thing for all relationships. I just did a quick google search...91% of rape charges are lodged by females. considering that males make up half the population I stand by my statement that this is basically something to protect dumb females from their drunken decisions.
I agree with you that when a party says "NO" and the other person continues then that is rape...however, when a person doesn't say no and doesn't stop it, then no, it is not rape. Crying rape the next day is buyers remorse....I have enough pride in myself not to blame someone else for my mistakes.
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