weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 28, 2015 20:47:27 GMT -5
HEADLINE "Papa Johns goes out of business after raising the average price of a pizza 25 cents in order to raise wages and implement a healthcare plan" or maybe "McDonalds eliminates the dollar menu- franchisees forced to file for bankruptcy" My opinion is this- if your business is so dependent on a particular price and labor cost that you cannot deal with a FMW increase or healthcare mandate- then it is a borderline failure already. I learned a long time ago when I ran my own small business that competing for the lowest common denominator is a losing strategy- What works is upping your game- hiring better people- paying more and charging more. There are customers I do not want- and I will happily run them off to competitors who charge less and run their low wage, high turnover kingdoms. Like Walmart or McDonalds It's not the "raising 25 cents" I'd be worried about... it's the "raising $2.50" that concerns me. Places removing "dollar menus" should worry you (and everyone) though... lots of people ONLY shop the dollar stuff. And isn't removing the dollar menu one step in exactly one of the things I mentioned anyway... "raising prices to the point that the new higher wage has the same (or less) purchasing power that the old wage did"? If we just want to maintain the status quo... why bother raising wages? Are we looking to end up with dollars having the same purchasing power as the Japanese Yen? Their "base currency" (the Yen) can buy the following: Restaurants (average)Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant: 800.00 ¥ Meal for 2 People, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course: 4,000.00 ¥McMeal at McDonalds (or Equivalent Combo Meal): 650.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught): 380.00 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 500.00 ¥ Cappuccino (regular): 371.17 ¥ Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle): 133.02 ¥ Water (0.33 liter bottle): 109.06 ¥ Markets [Edit] (average)Milk (regular), (1 gallon): 693.62 ¥ Loaf of Fresh White Bread (1 lb): 149.22 ¥ Rice (white), (1 lb): 207.93 ¥ Eggs (12): 221.96 ¥ Local Cheese (1 lb): 840.95 ¥ Chicken Breasts (Boneless, Skinless), (1 lb): 369.59 ¥ Beef Round (1 lb) (or Equivalent Back Leg Red Meat): 1,165.73 ¥ Apples (1 lb): 265.43 ¥ Banana (1 lb): 190.90 ¥ Oranges (1 lb): 220.71 ¥ Tomato (1 lb): 320.85 ¥ Potato (1 lb): 154.71 ¥ Onion (1 lb): 192.66 ¥ Lettuce (1 head): 178.44 ¥ Water (1.5 liter bottle): 141.55 ¥ Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range): 1,300.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter bottle): 275.43 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 364.19 ¥ Pack of Cigarettes (Marlboro): 450.00 ¥ SourceIs that what anyone wants here? $133 dollar Coke/Pepsi? $4,000 meal out? (talk about expensive dates! for that she'd better "put out!")$693 gallon of milk? I'm not saying $15 an hour will cause that. But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with 4,0$20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed. 4,000 yen is about $33.00. Pretty reasonable for a meal for two in a mid-range restaurant.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 20:49:33 GMT -5
So the solution is to raise the minimum wage so the lower class can lose even more ground? How does that even make any sense? no, the solution is actually to index FMW to inflation. you seem to be operating under the impression that a 10% increase in FMW = 10% inflation in the general economy. that is not true at all. it is less than 1/10th of the increase. in other words, if you are making FMW, and you get a 100% increase in pay, you would get a net increase of 90%, all other things remaining the same. i have explained this over and over and over again, so either you are ignoring it, or you simply don't believe it. not my problem from here on out. I agree with indexing it to inflation (or freezing inflation... kind of like Obamacare tried to do with insurance company profit caps... either one works for me). My point has always been against fixed FMW's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 20:53:01 GMT -5
It's not the "raising 25 cents" I'd be worried about... it's the "raising $2.50" that concerns me. Places removing "dollar menus" should worry you (and everyone) though... lots of people ONLY shop the dollar stuff. And isn't removing the dollar menu one step in exactly one of the things I mentioned anyway... "raising prices to the point that the new higher wage has the same (or less) purchasing power that the old wage did"? If we just want to maintain the status quo... why bother raising wages? Are we looking to end up with dollars having the same purchasing power as the Japanese Yen? Their "base currency" (the Yen) can buy the following: Restaurants (average)Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant: 800.00 ¥ Meal for 2 People, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course: 4,000.00 ¥McMeal at McDonalds (or Equivalent Combo Meal): 650.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught): 380.00 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 500.00 ¥ Cappuccino (regular): 371.17 ¥ Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle): 133.02 ¥ Water (0.33 liter bottle): 109.06 ¥ Markets [Edit] (average)Milk (regular), (1 gallon): 693.62 ¥ Loaf of Fresh White Bread (1 lb): 149.22 ¥ Rice (white), (1 lb): 207.93 ¥ Eggs (12): 221.96 ¥ Local Cheese (1 lb): 840.95 ¥ Chicken Breasts (Boneless, Skinless), (1 lb): 369.59 ¥ Beef Round (1 lb) (or Equivalent Back Leg Red Meat): 1,165.73 ¥ Apples (1 lb): 265.43 ¥ Banana (1 lb): 190.90 ¥ Oranges (1 lb): 220.71 ¥ Tomato (1 lb): 320.85 ¥ Potato (1 lb): 154.71 ¥ Onion (1 lb): 192.66 ¥ Lettuce (1 head): 178.44 ¥ Water (1.5 liter bottle): 141.55 ¥ Bottle of Wine (Mid-Range): 1,300.00 ¥ Domestic Beer (0.5 liter bottle): 275.43 ¥ Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle): 364.19 ¥ Pack of Cigarettes (Marlboro): 450.00 ¥ SourceIs that what anyone wants here? $133 dollar Coke/Pepsi? $4,000 meal out? (talk about expensive dates! for that she'd better "put out!")$693 gallon of milk? I'm not saying $15 an hour will cause that. But $15 will be followed (sooner or later) with $20... then $30... then $50... and so on, and so forth. So that's exactly where we are headed. 4,000 yen is about $33.00. Pretty reasonable for a meal for two in a mid-range restaurant. You are missing the point. It wasn't about converting yen TO dollars. It was about the buying power of the country's currency. Currently Japan has a minimum wage of 780¥, PER HOUR! If we keep raising Minimum wages in the haphazard fashion we have been doing it... we'll get to that point where US Minimum wage is $780.00/hour... eventually.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 28, 2015 21:03:49 GMT -5
4,000 yen is about $33.00. Pretty reasonable for a meal for two in a mid-range restaurant. You are missing the point. It wasn't about converting yen TO dollars. It was about the buying power of the country's currency. Currently Japan has a minimum wage of 780¥, PER HOUR! If we keep raising Minimum wages in the haphazard fashion we have been doing it... we'll get to that point where US Minimum wage is $780.00/hour... eventually. That's about $6.46 an hour. I've seen worse. Some countries pay about $2 a day. You know...the places where Trump gets his clothing line made, then howls about the Chinese stealing our jobs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 21:22:11 GMT -5
You are missing the point. It wasn't about converting yen TO dollars. It was about the buying power of the country's currency. Currently Japan has a minimum wage of 780¥, PER HOUR! If we keep raising Minimum wages in the haphazard fashion we have been doing it... we'll get to that point where US Minimum wage is $780.00/hour... eventually. That's about $6.46 an hour. I've seen worse. Some countries pay about $2 a day. You know...the places where Trump gets his clothing line made, then howls about the Chinese stealing our jobs.
You keep missing the point. I am not comparing their yen to our dollar on a today basis. So there is no yen to dollar conversion necessary. I am comparing their cost of services versus their minimum wage. as an example of where our dollar is heading (how much our dollar can buy versus how much we make an hour)
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 28, 2015 21:23:57 GMT -5
Exactly. You just tanked your own argument though Actually I didn't. I said (very clearly, I might add): " or... this new $15/hour can buy what $7.25/hour used to buy (making the wage increase basically a moot point)... or... this new $15/hour can't buy as much as what $7.25 used to buy (making the working poor actually WORSE off)." Did you miss the "or" and everything that followed it? I think I confirmed the third option (the one after the SECOND "or") pretty clearly. Nope- you tanked your own argument Go ahead and explain your way out of it if you want.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 21:25:43 GMT -5
no, the solution is actually to index FMW to inflation. you seem to be operating under the impression that a 10% increase in FMW = 10% inflation in the general economy. that is not true at all. it is less than 1/10th of the increase. in other words, if you are making FMW, and you get a 100% increase in pay, you would get a net increase of 90%, all other things remaining the same. i have explained this over and over and over again, so either you are ignoring it, or you simply don't believe it. not my problem from here on out. I agree with indexing it to inflation (or freezing inflation... kind of like Obamacare tried to do with insurance company profit caps... either one works for me). My point has always been against fixed FMW's. would you also agree that maybe we should set it above the federal poverty level for single individuals before we index it?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 28, 2015 21:26:13 GMT -5
Mr. Richard you made the argument FOR an increased minimum wage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 21:27:57 GMT -5
Mr. Richard you made the argument FOR an increased minimum wage. Not if you read what I wrote. Increased minimum wages promote LESS buying power. That's not an argument FOR it... it's an argument AGAINST it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 21:30:29 GMT -5
I agree with indexing it to inflation (or freezing inflation... kind of like Obamacare tried to do with insurance company profit caps... either one works for me). My point has always been against fixed FMW's. would you also agree that maybe we should set it above the federal poverty level for single individuals before we index it? I could be o.k. with that as well. Yes. Having minimum wage indexed to inflation would actually slow down inflation. Because companies would be loathe to raise prices because they would then be required to pay more per hour. The indexing couldn't be 1:1 (inflation:wage) though... it would have to be 1:1.1 (inflation:wage) or more.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 28, 2015 21:37:23 GMT -5
would you also agree that maybe we should set it above the federal poverty level for single individuals before we index it? I could be o.k. with that as well. Yes. Having minimum wage indexed to inflation would actually slow down inflation. Because companies would be loathe to raise prices because they would then be required to pay more per hour. The indexing couldn't be 1:1 (inflation:wage) though... it would have to be 1:1.1 (inflation:wage) or more. the latter would be nice, but probably not necessary. interesting, we have pretty broad agreement on this.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 28, 2015 21:37:39 GMT -5
Post deleted because of a personal attack. Debate the issue, not the poster please.
deminmaine- Moderator
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 22:53:51 GMT -5
Math is actually one of my strong suits... that's how I know 1.9 purchasing power is better than 1.7 ... How's your math?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 22:56:30 GMT -5
I could be o.k. with that as well. Yes. Having minimum wage indexed to inflation would actually slow down inflation. Because companies would be loathe to raise prices because they would then be required to pay more per hour. The indexing couldn't be 1:1 (inflation:wage) though... it would have to be 1:1.1 (inflation:wage) or more. the latter would be nice, but probably not necessary. interesting, we have pretty broad agreement on this.Yup. (as long as we agree that untethered FMW increases can't work to achieve the goals that supporters are seeking)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 29, 2015 7:27:35 GMT -5
NJ became the 11th state to tie it's min wage to the inflation rate. It went up a little and probably would go up again next year. Contrary to what people predicted the sky didn't fall yet.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Oct 29, 2015 21:44:34 GMT -5
i think i answered this a while back: family of one.
So you are saying one person with entry level abilities and working a 40 hr week should receive $30K annual wages? Is McDs going to ask how large a family an applicant has and adjust the wage to give more compensation to a larger family?
A person with entry level abilities and making burgers isn't worth that much.
Give me a break .................
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 29, 2015 22:38:03 GMT -5
You could always allow for a training wage exception. I think the threshold would be a full time job should pay enough for one person to pay for basic living expenses without a government handout- otherwise welfare is a wage subsidy. Now if somehow we could convince the folks that cannot stand welfare to quit hating on low wage workers. Do they not realize so much welfare is going to people that work?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 30, 2015 1:33:42 GMT -5
i think i answered this a while back: family of one.
So you are saying one person with entry level abilities and working a 40 hr week should receive $30K annual wages? Is McDs going to ask how large a family an applicant has and adjust the wage to give more compensation to a larger family? A person with entry level abilities and making burgers isn't worth that much. Give me a break ................. the question i thought i was answering is what the "living wage" refers to in terms of family size. i answered that question: one. in san francisco, oakland, seattle and NYC, i think $15/hr is probably about right. i can illustrate why if you can drop the histrionics about it.
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